Swansea Victoria

[firstgreatwestern]

Hello RmWeb!

 

Please excuse me if this is in the wrong place! I haven't used this forum for years but It is definitely a question and is in the U.K

 

In Swansea there was once a station called "Swansea Victoria". It was formerly operated by the LNWR and later the LMS and eventually fell to British Railways. It was adjacent to the terminus of the Swansea and Mumbles Railway at Rutland Street. It served as the station for trains on the Central Wales Line to Shrewsbury.

 

My question is, if it had survived rather than being closed in June 1964 then what TOC's would operate from the station. Despite Arriva coming to mind, I feel as if other operators such as Cross Country would operate long distance.

 

Thank you

 

 

FGW

[The Stationmaster]

Probably just Arriva unless someone else was running a service to Crewe/Manchester.

[br2975]

Definitely Arriva Trains Wales - after all they are the current operators of the Swansea - Llanelli - Craven Arms - Salop service.

.

Even though the line is so heavily subsidised, I doubt any other operators would want to touch it !

[firstgreatwestern]

I'd say Arriva would have a commanding presence, but I have a vision of a Virgin XC voyager, going to York!

 

I didn't know the line was subsidised, I asssumed it was very successful! With places such as Llandeilo and people actually travelling to Shrewsbury, but doesn't the Marches line join onto Shrewsbury anyway?

[Fat Controller]

I'd say Arriva would have a commanding presence, but I have a vision of a Virgin XC voyager, going to York!

 

I didn't know the line was subsidised, I asssumed it was very successful! With places such as Llandeilo and people actually travelling to Shrewsbury, but doesn't the Marches line join onto Shrewsbury anyway?

Llandeilo's about 2000 people, Llandovery, about the same, then there's nothing until Builth- small towns like this aren't likely to generate much passenger traffic. Famously, the line was proposed for closure in the 1960s, but repreived because of the number of marginal constituencies it runs through. Speed restrictions mean that if you're in a hurry, the North and West is probably quicker, and with a more frequent service.

[Zomboid]

If it had remained open, it would probably have been at the expense of the GW station, so everything would go there.

[Fat Controller]

I doubt that Victoria would have taken over the traffic from the East, though it might have picked up that from west of Gowerton- this had happened in the late 19th century, after there had been a partial collapse of Cockett Tunnel. A chord was constructed at Gowerton between the two companies' lines, but at the Swansea end, GW trains took the 'High-Level' dock lines, and then the line from these towards High Street, before terminating at Landore, avoiding a stop at Victoria.

There were other stations; how about St Thomas, the former Midland station? This might have had connections into the GW line at Six-Pit Jct, and to other lines via the dock network, and served a much more densely-populated area.

[The Stationmaster]

I doubt that Victoria would have taken over the traffic from the East, though it might have picked up that from west of Gowerton- this had happened in the late 19th century, after there had been a partial collapse of Cockett Tunnel. A chord was constructed at Gowerton between the two companies' lines, but at the Swansea end, GW trains took the 'High-Level' dock lines, and then the line from these towards High Street, before terminating at Landore, avoiding a stop at Victoria.

There were other stations; how about St Thomas, the former Midland station? This might have had connections into the GW line at Six-Pit Jct, and to other lines via the dock network, and served a much more densely-populated area.

 

If it had survived I would think East Dock station would also be fairly busy nowadays - the parallel road definitely is!

[John_Miles]

At various times there were plans to concentrate most of the passenger trains to and from Swansea on Swansea High Street. IIRC the first of these was in Victorian times and the last in the late1940s. The LNWR line traffic would be diverted via a connection to be installed near Gowerton and the Midland at Six Pit. In 1940s there were further proposals with Upper Bank shed becoming the main shed for LMS goods locos so there were clearance trials with 8Fs and Super D's between the docks and Upper Bank. I think the passenger engines were to be dealt with at Landore which I presume means Paxton Street (the ex-LNWR shed) would close. Needless to say, nothing actually happened.

[corneliuslundie]

The Heart of Wales line currently has four trains a day each way and they are often a single Class 153. There are occasional steam specials. Hardly likely to be profitable, but a really delightful ride.

If you want to be a real masochist, there is, I think, currently a through train from Crewe to Newport via Llanelli. I assume it happens because three shorter workings have been linked end to end, like the short lived Skegness to Pwllheli service.

Jonathan

[Andy Kirkham]

I read somewhere that Swansea had more termini than anywhere in the UK outside London:

High Street, Victoria, St Thomas, East Dock, Riverside and whatever the Mumbles one was called.

[Prometheus]

I read somewhere that Swansea had more termini than anywhere in the UK outside London:

High Street, Victoria, St Thomas, East Dock, Riverside and whatever the Mumbles one was called.

 

Rutland Street.

 

Tony

[Penlan]

If your seriously looking to model Swansea Victoria, then I think A.Doughty's 'The Central Wales Line' (OPC) is as good a book as any on the line and certainly covers the threats of closure averted over the years.  Even the stopping of the Mail trains in 1987 didn't lead to it's closure.  

I think marginal constituencies may well have had an influence, and although not mentioned in the book, I understood from local railmen that it was always a useful route into South Wales if the other (ex. GWR) lines were to be severed for some reason - probably wishful thinking...
John Miles, no I hadn't forgotten the Midland route over the top to St. Thomas, but I think unlikely as a diversion from the Midlands to South West Wales.

[Fat Controller]

If your seriously looking to model Swansea Victoria, then I think A.Doughty's 'The Central Wales Line' (OPC) is as good a book as any on the line and certainly covers the threats of closure averted over the years.  Even the stopping of the Mail trains in 1987 didn't lead to it's closure.  

I think marginal constituencies may well have had an influence, and although not mentioned in the book, I understood from local railmen that it was always a useful route into South Wales if the other (ex. GWR) lines were to be severed for some reason - probably wishful thinking...

John Miles, no I hadn't forgotten the Midland route over the top to St. Thomas, but I think unlikely as a diversion from the Midlands to South West Wales.

The through mail trains from Swansea Victoria to the North may have stopped a long time ago, but even in the 1970s, station staff at Llanelli used to call the last northbound departure the 'North Mail'. Rather a grand title for a Swindon Cross-Country set. Freight diversions do occur from time to time; when the direct routes from Margam to Llanwern are closed for engineering works, steel slab trains use the line. They reverse at Craven Arms, and run back down the North and West.

[Penlan]

The weekday Down mail was cancelled on 4th July 1987, it left Shrewsbury at 4am, the mail being carried in PO vans.

A Saturday Mail service continued till the end of that summer season.  There was also passenger accommodation available on the train.

 

I can't find a timetable at present, but I think the Up service left Swansea Victoria at 6.30pm.

There's a LNWR period photo of a Parcel Van lettered 'Swanse, Leeds & York' used on the Mail trains, I have one on the layout too.

[Fat Controller]

The weekday Down mail was cancelled on 4th July 1987, it left Shrewsbury at 4am, the mail being carried in PO vans.

A Saturday Mail service continued till the end of that summer season.  There was also passenger accommodation available on the train.

 

I can't find a timetable at present, but I think the Up service left Swansea Victoria at 6.30pm.

There's a LNWR period photo of a Parcel Van lettered 'Swanse, Leeds & York' used on the Mail trains, I have one on the layout too.

1987? I thought Victoria had closed in 1965? There was certainly a lot of mail carried on service trains into the 1970s; I remember being on Llanelli station when the Down train was announced 'Delayed due to animals on the line'. When it did turn up, the leg of a sheep was visible under the stack of mail bags.

[Karhedron]

Hard to imagine what Swansea Victoria would look like if it was still open today. With the traffic levels described, I imagine a single platform face would suffice.

 

If you don't mind a little application of Rule1, you could look around for other services in the area that might feasibly have been re-routed into Victoria if it had remained open (possibly at the expense of some other station).

[Ian Hargrave]

Hello RmWeb!

Please excuse me if this is in the wrong place! I haven't used this forum for years but It is definitely a question and is in the U.K

In Swansea there was once a station called "Swansea Victoria". It was formerly operated by the LNWR and later the LMS and eventually fell to British Railways. It was adjacent to the terminus of the Swansea and Mumbles Railway at Rutland Street. It served as the station for trains on the Central Wales Line to Shrewsbury.

My question is, if it had survived rather than being closed in June 1964 then what TOC's would operate from the station. Despite Arriva coming to mind, I feel as if other operators such as Cross Country would operate long distance.

Thank you

FGW

The WAG is a major player in decision making here.No one in their right mind would want to take this one on.Swansea Victoria had a grandiose name which belied its actual use......though right at the end of its passenger days ,displaced Jubilees from Bristol Barrow Road had charge of Shrewsbury services.

 

For photographic record,find a copy of "The Red Dragon.....and other old friends" LDR publications.

[The Stationmaster]

The through mail trains from Swansea Victoria to the North may have stopped a long time ago, but even in the 1970s, station staff at Llanelli used to call the last northbound departure the 'North Mail'. Rather a grand title for a Swindon Cross-Country set. Freight diversions do occur from time to time; when the direct routes from Margam to Llanwern are closed for engineering works, steel slab trains use the line. They reverse at Craven Arms, and run back down the North and West.

 

Serves 'em right for shutting the Vale of Neath I say

[Ian Hargrave]

Hard to imagine what Swansea Victoria would look like if it was still open today. With the traffic levels described, I imagine a single platform face would suffice.If you don't mind a little application of Rule1, you could look around for other services in the area that might feasibly have been re-routed into Victoria if it had remained open (possibly at the expense of some other station).

In fact it was used for rugby excursions. On one occasion to Murrayfield when Wales played Scotland there....and lost! Huw Daniel's photo is of W647 hauled by Paxton Street's 8F 48524 piloting Neyland's 2288. It was one of nineteen to run via Shrewsbury that weekend.....8th February 1959.It was a rare example of Sunday working on the line.Both Friday overnight trains,the 6:45 pm Swansea Victoria-Edinburgh sleeper and the 7:25 pm were fully booked.A third excursion ran from Carmarthen. Total passengers....1346.

[Ian Hargrave]

Serves 'em right for shutting the Vale of Neath I say

Per adua ad astra.......Crumlin Viaduct nostalgia.. not forgetting it's hugely important wartime use. USA S160's to boot.

[John_Miles]

If your seriously looking to model Swansea Victoria, then I think A.Doughty's 'The Central Wales Line' (OPC) is as good a book as any on the line and certainly covers the threats of closure averted over the years.  Even the stopping of the Mail trains in 1987 didn't lead to it's closure.  

I think marginal constituencies may well have had an influence, and although not mentioned in the book, I understood from local railmen that it was always a useful route into South Wales if the other (ex. GWR) lines were to be severed for some reason - probably wishful thinking...

John Miles, no I hadn't forgotten the Midland route over the top to St. Thomas, but I think unlikely as a diversion from the Midlands to South West Wales.

The Midland route was limited to relatively small locos and dogged by steeper gradients than the Central Wales, although both had some challenging climbs.

[firstgreatwestern]

This is excellent information, I was curious that's all but I'm really glad to have learnt something about the Heart of Wales line and the railways of Wales as a whole.

 

As for a model, maybe. I would like to create something. Perhaps an updated version set post 1968. Using Rule 1 having Midland traffic coming to Victoria. I would love to see a double headed Class 50 formation coming from up north!

[The Great Bear]

OK so not relevant to the period being proposed but whilst talking about Swansea Victoria: Iain Rice's Designs for Urban Layouts has a good take on a model inspired by Swansea Victoria, in grouping days or before things rationalised looks a really good subject for a model.