South Wales Valleys in the 50s

[chrisf]

Johnster, is your model WWOC bus one of those that did not have a route number display?  As I recall from childhood visits to Barry in the 1950s it was very much an afterthought to display the route number on the bus and it was quite late on before they were used in the timetable books.

 

Chris

[The Johnster]

   
Spot on Mr Foren sir; just the destination and no route number.  Here is the beast. 

[chrisf]

And a splendid beast it is too!  It so happens that I was reading Colin Scott's history of Western Welsh in bed the other night.  I would be happy to go through it to see if I can find any relevant photos.  I have also found a WWOC timetable for summer 1961, which I suspect is close enough to your chosen period for the routes not to have changed too much.  One thing you will need to remember when tackling the destination box is that part of the display on older buses was masked off by a metal plate.  I suspect that this was to save the material [linen? canvas?] from which the blind was made and may have had its origins during the war.  How long the vehicles on which your model is based actually lasted is a Good Question but it may be best to assume that Bridgend depot did not have first dibs on new vehicles.

 

Chris

Edited May 14, 2021 by chrisf
typo

[mike morley]

18 minutes ago, chrisf said:

One thing you will need to remember when tackling the destination box is that part of the display on older buses was masked off by a metal plate.  I suspect that this was to save the material [linen? canvas?] from which the blind was made

 

A friend of mine's father used to work for London Country Buses and I briefly worked with someone whose hobby was restoring classic Southdown buses.   On several occasions both expressed horrified disbelief at the astronomical price of replacement blinds - this was back in the 70's and IIRC they were talking several hundred pounds each (not per set) - so I think it highly likely that, as Chris suggests, it was a cost-saving exercise.

Might also explain why routes were rarely changed significantly and why individual buses tended to be allocated to the same route for years on end.

[The Johnster]

I saw a feature many years ago on 'Wales Today' or one of those programmes about a company in Bangor, IIRC, the Welsh one not the Irish one, that made them and exported them all over the world; they reckoned they were the only people doing it!  The process of making them was fairly complex as each one was bespoke to a bus company or depot, and hand made of high grade linen; no wonder they were costly!  I believe the same company made the destination blinds for dmus and headcode panels.  Led displays are more reliable, easier for passengers to read, don't need backlighting, take less space, don't have to be bespoke, and are much cheaper.

 

My experiene with headcode panels is that they wear in use, and the fabric gets caught on things and tears, so they need occasional replacment.  This may have been one of the drivers of the decision to abandon them by BR; it was stated at the time that they were no longer needed due to the increase of MAS signalling, but there were plenty of manual boxes still around in the 70s.

 

I believe 848 is based on a preserved example that is kept at Barry depot, in this livery.  A Bridgend bus may need renumbering and of course I am taking a bit of a punt that Bridgend ever had an allocation of this type.  Any new vehicles allox there would probably have been used on the main road services; Cardiff, Pontyclun/Pontypridd, and Porthcawl, with a valley like Cwmdimbath being well down the pecking order.  The bus dates apparently from 1947 according to the blurb that came with it, so is bang on for my 1948-58 period, but more likely up in the mountain fastnesses towards the end of it!  It looks the part, though; whatever other complaints I have about the model the livery is superbly applied and the company's address next to the front left wheel arch can be easily read, and a half-cab screams late 40s/early 50s.

 

There are essential elments to any Valleys layout, beyond 56xx and minerals.  Sheep everywhere, an Italian cafe, tin tabernacle, and a local bus; the bus network was every bit as intensive as the railway one, and they were nearly all red; Western Welsh in these central Glamorgan valleys and the Vale, Rhondda in, um, well..., South Wales further west, Red & White in the Monmouthshire and Aberdare valleys.  There were interlopers, blue Caerphilly UDC in the Rhymney Valley and Merthyr Tydfil's dark purple and cream in that area.  There were countless small operators with interesting old vehicles; it was a bus spotter's paradise.  I wasn't a bus spotter...

[Nick C]

5 hours ago, mike morley said:

 

A friend of mine's father used to work for London Country Buses and I briefly worked with someone whose hobby was restoring classic Southdown buses.   On several occasions both expressed horrified disbelief at the astronomical price of replacement blinds - this was back in the 70's and IIRC they were talking several hundred pounds each (not per set) - so I think it highly likely that, as Chris suggests, it was a cost-saving exercise.

Might also explain why routes were rarely changed significantly and why individual buses tended to be allocated to the same route for years on end.

The design used by LT on their single-box buses was quite clever from a material-saving view, being laid out thus:

 

-------

Destination

No. Via

-------

 

and arranged on the roll like this:

 

Destination 1

<no/via for route between 1&2>

Destination 2

<no/via for route between 2&3>

Destination 3

 

So at each end you've just have to roll in on so that one destination rolled off the top and another appeared at the bottom, or vice versa.

 

[The Johnster]

They are much cleverer than us in that London...

[The Johnster]

Royal Mail texted me yesterday that they are going to deliver the new shop, no.1 West Street, tomorrow; this is excellent seevice from SMS and RM.  Been thinking of names for the pub.  It’s going to be bit of a spit and sawdust sort of place, so Railway Hotel sounds too grand.  Favourite at the moment is the Forge Hammer, a nod to the pre-railway existence of the place.  There was once a real forge on the opposite bank of the stream at this spot, it’s ruins marked on the OS, served by a tramroad that would have been the basis for the branch had it ever been built.  I’m also taken with the idea of calling the pub the Drum and Monkey.  
 

Developments at the other end of the scenic area are going to be allowed to proceed in a less planned and more ‘organic’ fashion, and I have no firm ideas for this yet.  It will be interesting to see how it develops in this way, using bits and bobs and material that I have to hand.  I’ve already repositioned the bridge and the first job will be to tidy up and blend it scenically. 

[chrisf]

I have found some prototype photos which may be of interest.  The first is a rear three quarter view of  803,  the third shows 859 in the Ely graveyard, which despite my best efforts is upside down and the third is a head-on view of 841showing the method used to reduce the size of the aperture on the blind box.

 

Chris

 

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by chrisf
trouble with pics

[ianathompson]

That is quite an interesting image.

I have re orinentated it and posted below.

 

 

I know little about buses but I purchased a similar one for a secondary project that I (very) occasionally work on.

I have even bought passegers and crew for it and intend, whenever I get around to it, to open up the body to paint the inside and put the passengers in.

 

Ian T

Edited May 16, 2021 by ianathompson
typo

[Sandhole]

Buses are a complete culture.
I have resin kits for buses from my youth.
Bolton Corporation Transport Atlantean and two Lancashire United Transport Guys.
Superb kits, I think the manufacturer isn't in the business any more.
Local buses are out there, have a look.
Love the layout,
Regards,
Chris.

[The Johnster]

Wow; thanks Chris!  These are excellent and informative, and I see what you mean about the blanked off portion of the destinatiob board window.  I may be able to replicate this with a plasicard/plastiglaze overlay.  The rear window is completely wrong on the model, as 803 has a twin window arrangement which is deeper than the one I have, and the WW emblem is below the window instead of above on my model, which has a separate panel over the window.  I assume this is a generic feature that is not correct for this particular livery but may well be for others; I am not a bus expert, merely a casual observer.

 

 

The character of the bus is well enough captured, especially the recessed sliding passenger door, but the two corner steps are a bit feeble and too far apart.  The guard rails beneath the sides are too thick but can easily be replaced.  I will probably decide to live with the rear window, rather than undertake the major surgery needed to correct  and make decisions about the glazing generally when I've got the model apart.  The side windows, apart from the front ones without ventilators, have separate frames for the main lights and the ventilators, which I will attempt to reproduce the top bars of as they are very characteristic.  It may be possible to use Glue'n'Glaze for the main windows but it will be at the limit of it's capacity and probably not possible for the front windows or the cab windows.  The windscreen is different in the photos to the model as well, having an aluminium frame with rounded corners, which I think I can probably have a crack at reproducing.

 

As a project, it will have to wait it's place in the queue and may not be done for some time, but I'll post photos when it is done.  Work plan; drill out rivets and take apart, spray body with matt varnish, paint interior, remove guard rails and replace with something more to scale, reglaze (which is probably going to be the hardest part), pick out allocation yellow diamond in blue, make up new destination box front, make up new aluminium framed windscreen and fit windsreen wiper and mirrors, reassemble, take photos and post here, have congratulatory beer.  By that time West Street may be complete and the bus can be placed in it's proper environment.

[The Johnster]

Destinatiob.  
 

I may have possibly meant destination…

[simontaylor484]

You forgot the rows of miners cottages and a rugby pitch in your list of  must haves as well ad a rival chapel to your tin tabernacle, you know the one where they go on a Sunday to discuss who they are going to rob on the Monday

[The Johnster]

Such cynicism in one so young, Simon.

 

There is already a row of cottages, Lechyd Terrace, built for the foundry workers before the railway arrived and of 1850s appearance (Ancorton stone terrace, perfect for the job but too early in build date for the main part of the village, which needs to look 1880s or 90s).  'West Street' has a further terrace of 3D printed forced perspective cottages from Recreation 21 planned, which will be up the hill from the shop, pub, and Idwal Bracchi cafe.  Between these buildings and Lechyd Terrace will be a sort of village square, with the goods depot backing on to it.  The passenger entrance is along a footpath between the platform and Lechyd Terrace; there is no car park.  The Dimbath Valley is a real place, and is such a narrow and steep defile that there is no room for a rugby pitch; the nearest is at Glynogwr in the main Ogmore Fach Valley about 2 miles away (there was a recent scandal when a Glynogwr fly half went north for a 5 figure sum; Gilfach Goch for 10 shillings and 11pence ha'penny.  There was never a mining village or dwellings for the forge workers, and it is heavily wooded, remote, and undeveloped up at this end.  In autumn especially it is an echo of the sylvan loveliness that must have characterised all the South Wales Valleys before the industrial revolution, when first the various ironworks and the the collieries despoiled everthing, and the trees were all felled for pit props.

 

Once the pub is open, I may repurpose the army surplus Nissen Huts that currently make up the premises and store of the Ogmore Forest Non-Political Sports and Social Workmens' Association, a drinking club in which the downfall of capitalism and civilisation as we know it is discussed and planned on a  nightly basis, but it is not quite as soviet as most Valleys Conservative clubs were...   It is also home to Dimbath Pigeon Fanciers.  The huts can be repurpoed as a small industrial workshop premises, and the tin tabernacle can either be on their current site, or be in the street behind 'West Street', out of sight, or on the mountainside on the viewing side of the layout which of course does not actually exist, though it is the 'location' of the operator's viewpoint.  I might represent it's very lowest slopes to give this 'viewpoint' a foreground.  Further rows of terraced cottages are assumed to be here, but probably no more than two.

[31A]

Not sure whether this has been linked on here before, but there's some good shots of buses and trains in South Wales, and other aspects of the Valleys in the '50s' - might be of interest:

 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-every-valley-1957-online

 

[The Johnster]

Looks good, but can't get it to play.

[chrisf]

You're going to hate me for this but I got it to play.  Just the sort of thing that BTF did so well.

 

Chris

[31A]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Looks good, but can't get it to play.

 

Sorry to hear that, I was hoping you were going to tell us where some of the locations are on it!

 

I have got it on the DVD "British Transport Films Collection Vol. 5: Off the Beat Track"; some of the other stuff on it is pretty good too:

 

https://www.wolvertonrail.com/acatalog/British_Film_Institute_BFI.html

[Welchester]

32 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

Sorry to hear that, I was hoping you were going to tell us where some of the locations are on it!

 

I have got it on the DVD "British Transport Films Collection Vol. 5: Off the Beat Track"; some of the other stuff on it is pretty good too:

 

https://www.wolvertonrail.com/acatalog/British_Film_Institute_BFI.html

 

Aybury is Leckhampton, Beeton is Andoversford on the Cheltenham-Kingham line. Some scenes are shot at Gloucester (Central and Eastgate). The breakdown train leaves from Cheltenham Malvern Road shed. This film compares the filming locations with the supermarkets and business parks that now occupy the sites.

[31A]

38 minutes ago, Welchester said:

 

Aybury is Leckhampton, Beeton is Andoversford on the Cheltenham-Kingham line. Some scenes are shot at Gloucester (Central and Eastgate). The breakdown train leaves from Cheltenham Malvern Road shed. This film compares the filming locations with the supermarkets and business parks that now occupy the sites.

 

Thank you; but I was really thinking of the shots of trains & buses in the Valleys in "Every Valley" (Vol. 5). 

 

[Welchester]

3 hours ago, 31A said:

 

Thank you; but I was really thinking of the shots of trains & buses in the Valleys in "Every Valley" (Vol. 5). 

 

 

Sorry. I think I got confused between threads.

[89A]

On 17/05/2021 at 09:21, 31A said:

 

Sorry to hear that, I was hoping you were going to tell us where some of the locations are on it!

 

 

The shops & market are Pontypridd, a wonderful place to visit.

 

The platelayer is on the viaduct between Quakers Yard and the tunnel leading into the Cynon Valley on the Pontypool Road to Neath line. He is looking down onto the route of the Penydarren Tramroad alongside the Taff.

 

The Red & White Leyland Royal Tiger is initially climbing between Aberdare & Maerdy.

 

The Industrial Estate is Trefforest.

 

The  large viaduct with the mineral train crossing is Walnut Tree above Taffs Weli.

 

I think the auto trains are working up and down the Garw Valley.

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by 89A

[Budgie]

Why not call the pub the Lechyd Tavern?

I have a superb painting of Glynneath High Street, which shows a chapel surrounded by its graveyard, and the first building next to the graveyard is one of the pubs on the high street.

Incidentally, when I visited my grandparents in the 1950s and 1960s, Western Welsh did run a route into Aberdare. Their buses were not as bright red as your one though; that colour was the Red and White colour. And I deffo remember the strange shape of those double windows in the back.

[The Johnster]

I just a out remember this livery, but they’d changed to the darker red by 1959.  Check out Ian Thompson’s photo of Ely depot dump in 1960.  
 

The Red and White livery was a lighter red very similar to this, but with white rather than yellow stripes.  Rhondda and South Wales buses were a darker red, both similar to each other.  
 

Lechyd Tavern, or perhaps Tafarn Lechyd, is a possibility, but Forge Hammer chimes with the invented history and is a nod to the actual ruined forge on the OS map at this location.  There are, or were, several real pubs with this name; I can remember one in Machen and in one in Risca and there were probably others.