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South Wales Valleys in the 50s


The Johnster
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8497 is today's hero for the morning pickup, and is seen here pausing during the shunting to take on water.  Tondu's 94xx were considered as passenger locos for some reason, so this is actually not a very likely scene, but not IMHO impossible.  8497 has settled into her work admirably, and, after performing excellently straight out of the box, is now pretty fully run in and a superb runner.  The coreless motor requires less throttle for the same speed as my other Baccy panniers, so a very gentle touch is required, but she responds beautifully to it.

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eBay has provided a £5 BIN Hornby Dublo Mica B, promised next week but arrived yesterday am in the post.  Have removed the HD metal chassis and replaced it with one that once resided beneath a Bachmann Mogo.  I know this model is designed for a generic chassis and is a scale foot too long, but it'll 'do' for now.  I am guilty of double standards here, though; I will not tolerate similarly lengthened Hornby or Dapol 16ton minerals, but will put up with this.  I suspect that an RTR model may well turn up over the next few years, to current standards; it always scores high in wishlist polls.  If so, I'll buy one and restore the Mogo to original condition, but I have two of these so there is still a Mogo on the layout.  I have the Parkside but have for no obvious reason had trouble with it, wheels falling out mostly.  The HD has been weathered and the steps and locking bar picked out in black, as per the Parkside instructions.

 

I've moved the food factory to the other side of the layout as part of the colliery complex, serving an undefined purpose.  The plan is to use the existing electroplating/galvanising plant as the food preparation factory, and install a loading dock with a canopy on the part of the spur siding vacated by the original food factory, which will represent the loading dock of the electroplating/galvanising works.

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15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

eBay has provided a £5 BIN Hornby Dublo Mica B, promised next week but arrived yesterday am in the post.  Have removed the HD metal chassis and replaced it with one that once resided beneath a Bachmann Mogo.  I know this model is designed for a generic chassis and is a scale foot too long, but it'll 'do' for now.  I am guilty of double standards here, though; I will not tolerate similarly lengthened Hornby or Dapol 16ton minerals, but will put up with this.  I suspect that an RTR model may well turn up over the next few years, to current standards; it always scores high in wishlist polls.  If so, I'll buy one and restore the Mogo to original condition, but I have two of these so there is still a Mogo on the layout.  I have the Parkside but have for no obvious reason had trouble with it, wheels falling out mostly.  The HD has been weathered and the steps and locking bar picked out in black, as per the Parkside instructions.

 

I've moved the food factory to the other side of the layout as part of the colliery complex, serving an undefined purpose.  The plan is to use the existing electroplating/galvanising plant as the food preparation factory, and install a loading dock with a canopy on the part of the spur siding vacated by the original food factory, which will represent the loading dock of the electroplating/galvanising works.

My Dear Friend Coachbogie turned me onto Dublo Micas on Ratio chassis a number of years ago. I'm happy with them. The new chassis makes all the difference.
Regards,
Chris.

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Been an eventful week at Cwmdimbath, because things have been coming in the post.  Most importantly, W 3338, a Clifton Downs auto trailer build by Iain D for me.  This is a bit of an oddball coach, but entirely correct for Tondu between 31/8/53 and 31/3/54.  The livery looks wrong but is also correct for the coach during it's brief allocation at TDU.  The coach was already the last of it's type in service when it was withdrawn in September 1948, I think possibly from Oxford, to be re-instated in November 1949.  TTBOMK it's reprieve saw it allocated to Newport Division for work on Cardiff Valleys routes; the John Lewis Autotrailer book has photos of it in the Carriage Sidings at Queen Street and working out of Pontypridd.  I assume it picked up it's incorrect livery at Swindon or Caerphilly when it was reinstated. 

 

Lewis states this to be lined maroon, but he describes the 1948-56 unlined crimson standard BR coach livery as unlined or plain maroon, so it is reasonable to assume that he means crimson for this coach as well.  The WR began in June 1948 to apply it's own interpretation of which coaches should be painted in the crimson and cream livery which should have been reserved for gangwayed stock, and used the livery for auto trailers until an occasion in 1950 when Mr Riddles was passing through Paddington and saw a trailer in this livery, which prompted him to write to WR head office demanding an explanation for what his best main line express livery was doing on a lowly auto trailer, at which point the practice ceased and the WR fell into line with auto trailer liveries.  I mention this because the WR's attidude to auto trailers in 1949 may have 'informed' the provision of gangwayed stock lining for this coach, despite it's non gangwayed status.  TTBOMK no compartement auto trailer had been painted in the standard unlined crimson livery before this.

 

The cream painted droplight frames are correct according to the Lewis photos, and are most likely the result of damaged frames being replaced from cream painted stock in the carriage depots. 

 

The eagle eyed among the South Wales 1950s cognesciti will note that W 3338's allocation to Tondu coincides with the introduction of the Cardiff Valleys 'regular interval' timetable, which extended auto working in the area considerably, probably extending the service lives of some of the older trailers and prompting the conversion to compartment trailers of Collett D117 brake 3rds to diagram A44 auto trailers by putting a cab in the brake end with a single rectangular window.  A similar conversion of brake composites had taken place in 1938 for the Lydney-Sharpness Severn Bridge auto trains, which required first class accommodation because of this line's joint nature with the LMS, which insisted on it.  It was this new timetable that also prompted the fitting of auto gear to some 4575 class small prairies for heavy suburban work with auto trailers in South Wales.

 

Prior to the 1953 timetable change, none of the Tondu valley passenger services were auto worked, which is a little strange because they were ideally suited to this method of working, especially the Gilfach Goch service which reversed at Hendreforgan; this, however, had closed in 1930, and the Blaengarw passenger service had closed at the start of the 1953 summer timetable, leaving the Abergwynfi, Nantymoel, and Porthcawl branches to be worked by autos, with a number of the auto fitted 4575s tranferred to power them.

 

It was considered that the sharp curvature of the Porthcawl branch, which brought the trains down to 5mph in some parts, meant that electric lighting would not be given enough of a run for the dynamos to charge the batteries, as had been the case on the Hemyock branch, and gas lit trailers were initially used at Tondu.  These included W 3338, examples of diagram N and A10 panelled trailers, and a gangwayed twin set of Taff Vale trailers, GW diagrams A20/1.  There were 3 of these sets, and each in turn finished their service lives at Tondu over the next four years, and were considered to be te Porthcawl sets, though there are photos of them elsewhere in the Tondu Valleys,

 

Electric lighted sets appeared over the next few years and the Porthcawl branch managed with them eventually, and included the A44 'Cyclops', compartment trailers and their all-third intermediate A43 compatrios, and examples of A28, A30, and A38 all steel trailers.  W 3338 only lasted over the winter of 1953/4 at TDU, but it is a highly individual and unique vehicle, and I am delighted to own a model of it.  It is of course built from the excellent Roxey Mouldings etched brass kit.

 

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This is it's first revenue service train at Cwmdimbath, in company with another TDU trailer, W 189 W, and 5524.

 

But this is not the only thing to have happened this week at Cwmdimbath.  The recent movement of the factory building with outside side loading entrances from the factory siding to the colliery exchange road has left a bit of a gap, now filled by a Metcalfe platform with a stone wall at the back and a canopy.  The canopy in the kit consists of 3 'bays' of glass roofed ridges, but I have only used two of them.  There is a section of open platform which will eventually lead around the end of the wall to a new factory.  Lot of work still to do with this, possibly a loading doorway cut in the back wall and there is certainly room on the platform for a small office and plenty of general clutter, not to mention hanging lamps, but the kit is finished and adds to the way that trains appear from or dissappear to the fiddle yard.

 

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This should give the general idea, with a couple of vehicles posed for illustration.

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Very nice job indeed. An early pattern autocoach / converted steam railmotor is something that I think of as a gap in the RTR market. In fact, now we have both types of GWR diesel railcar, how about an RTR steam railmotor?

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Preaching to the choir, my lupine friend.  I can't claim responsibility for the Clifton Downs, Iain D kindly made it for me, and he has made a first class job of it, hand lined with a bow pen.  It runs beautifully as well.  But, like you, I would love to see a greater effort by RTR producers in terms of pre-steel GW auto trailers.  Kernow did a railmotor and matching trailer, and there are a few kits about, always assuming they are available which is by no means guaranteed with kits.  Dapol inherited a Diagram N from Lionheart in 7mm, and I keep hoping for (and hinting that it would be nice if they did) it to  be put through a 4mm shrink ray.  Simon Dawson, Rue d'Etropal of this very parish as ever is, does a range of 3D coach bodyshells under the name Recreation21, via Shapeways, but they are not cheap.  And the Silurian Era A31 whitemetal beast from Keyser turns up on the 'Bay sometimes, reasonably priced and needing a good bit of work but it can be tarted up into a reasonable layout model; I have 2 of them.  Coupled together, they are beyond the capacity of a Bachmann 4575...

 

Probably the most likely to appear, because it was the largest single class of autotrailer and lasted a good long time in service, would be the A26, a 70 footer, sadly of no interest to a South Wales modeller.  GW autotrailers came in a variety of shapes and sizes, and were both rebuilt from steam railmotors, built as trailers to run with steam railmotors, or built as purpose built trailers to run with auto fitted locomotives.  Locomotives were 2021s, 517s, Metros, 48xx (14xx) 54xx, 64xx, and finally BR 1953 converted 4575s, and trailers were matchboarded, panelled with or without bolection window frame mouldings and with or without central doors and vestibuled, and eventually steel bodied.  There were auto fitted clerestory conversions, 70 footers gangwayed in twin sets for the Plymouth area with intemediate trailer cabs shoehorned in beside the gangways, and a concertina style trailer with sliding doors operated by an overhead pulley system by the guard, which was rebuilt after only a few years into a more conventional saloon trailer with a distinctive window pattern,

 

On top of that there were Cardiff Railway trailers, not unlike GW bolection types in appearance, Taff Vale Railway gangwayed twin sets (these were originally fitted with the TV's rather Heath Robinson overhead cable pulley control gear) and some Rhymney Railway stock which included saloon intermediate panelled trailers, all of which made it beyond nationalisation.  A fertile field for RTR production one might have thought, but I am not privvy to the mechanics or economics of choosing prototypes for production.

 

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7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Preaching to the choir, my lupine friend.  I can't claim responsibility for the Clifton Downs, Iain D kindly made it for me, and he has made a first class job of it, hand lined with a bow pen.  It runs beautifully as well.  But, like you, I would love to see a greater effort by RTR producers in terms of pre-steel GW auto trailers.  Kernow did a railmotor and matching trailer, and there are a few kits about, always assuming they are available which is by no means guaranteed with kits.  Dapol inherited a Diagram N from Lionheart in 7mm, and I keep hoping for (and hinting that it would be nice if they did) it to  be put through a 4mm shrink ray.  Simon Dawson, Rue d'Etropal of this very parish as ever is, does a range of 3D coach bodyshells under the name Recreation21, via Shapeways, but they are not cheap.  And the Silurian Era A31 whitemetal beast from Keyser turns up on the 'Bay sometimes, reasonably priced and needing a good bit of work but it can be tarted up into a reasonable layout model; I have 2 of them.  Coupled together, they are beyond the capacity of a Bachmann 4575...

 

Probably the most likely to appear, because it was the largest single class of autotrailer and lasted a good long time in service, would be the A26, a 70 footer, sadly of no interest to a South Wales modeller.  GW autotrailers came in a variety of shapes and sizes, and were both rebuilt from steam railmotors, built as trailers to run with steam railmotors, or built as purpose built trailers to run with auto fitted locomotives.  Locomotives were 2021s, 517s, Metros, 48xx (14xx) 54xx, 64xx, and finally BR 1953 converted 4575s, and trailers were matchboarded, panelled with or without bolection window frame mouldings and with or without central doors and vestibuled, and eventually steel bodied.  There were auto fitted clerestory conversions, 70 footers gangwayed in twin sets for the Plymouth area with intemediate trailer cabs shoehorned in beside the gangways, and a concertina style trailer with sliding doors operated by an overhead pulley system by the guard, which was rebuilt after only a few years into a more conventional saloon trailer with a distinctive window pattern,

 

On top of that there were Cardiff Railway trailers, not unlike GW bolection types in appearance, Taff Vale Railway gangwayed twin sets (these were originally fitted with the TV's rather Heath Robinson overhead cable pulley control gear) and some Rhymney Railway stock which included saloon intermediate panelled trailers, all of which made it beyond nationalisation.  A fertile field for RTR production one might have thought, but I am not privvy to the mechanics or economics of choosing prototypes for production.

 

Hi The Johnster,

 

Glad it runs well. I was a bit worried about the windows not making it, given how the postie at my local PO dropped it into the international mail sack!! The bag of spare cut window glass I intended to send is on my bench (doh!), and I thought the steps on the bogies might stick out too far, they're about 2mm too wide on each side, and knock things on your trackside. I hope the coupling plates were easy to use/modify.

 

And it looks a bit too clean!

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

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11 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Very nice job indeed. An early pattern autocoach / converted steam railmotor is something that I think of as a gap in the RTR market. In fact, now we have both types of GWR diesel railcar, how about an RTR steam railmotor?

Wot, like this? https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92927-kernow-gwr-steam-rail-motor/

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Thanks, that's not something that I have heard about. Possibly sometime next year then? It also looks reasonably priced too. Hopefully they won't feel the urge to fill it with mobile phone gubbins and shove the price up to £250. That's a bit outside my budget!

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It will get a coat of light weathering soon, Iain, but it looks so good I can’t bring myself to do it just yet!  Windows and steps have all survived, thanks to your careful packing.  I had the bogies off yesterday to fit couplings, and the steps feel very firmly attached. They don’t hit anything, and the coach sails around the no.3 setrack curved turnout in the fy.  The roof has to come off sometime for the driver and no smoking labels, and a lighting strip, dimmed down because this coach has gas lighting, but not today…

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Sounds good. I had to think about no smoking labels, in the pictures of the carriage in the sidings at Cardiff there are no visible window labels -  I don't know about the other side. In those days I thought 'no smoking' was the exception rather than the norm! If you do need to remove the steps, some sharp cutters will do it, the wire is I think .5mm n/s.

 

Kind regards,

 

iain

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On 03/10/2021 at 02:01, The Johnster said:

Preaching to the choir, my lupine friend.  I can't claim responsibility for the Clifton Downs, Iain D kindly made it for me, and he has made a first class job of it, hand lined with a bow pen.  It runs beautifully as well.  But, like you, I would love to see a greater effort by RTR producers in terms of pre-steel GW auto trailers.  Kernow did a railmotor and matching trailer, and there are a few kits about, always assuming they are available which is by no means guaranteed with kits.  Dapol inherited a Diagram N from Lionheart in 7mm, and I keep hoping for (and hinting that it would be nice if they did) it to  be put through a 4mm shrink ray.  Simon Dawson, Rue d'Etropal of this very parish as ever is, does a range of 3D coach bodyshells under the name Recreation21, via Shapeways, but they are not cheap.  And the Silurian Era A31 whitemetal beast from Keyser turns up on the 'Bay sometimes, reasonably priced and needing a good bit of work but it can be tarted up into a reasonable layout model; I have 2 of them.  Coupled together, they are beyond the capacity of a Bachmann 4575...

 

Probably the most likely to appear, because it was the largest single class of autotrailer and lasted a good long time in service, would be the A26, a 70 footer, sadly of no interest to a South Wales modeller.  GW autotrailers came in a variety of shapes and sizes, and were both rebuilt from steam railmotors, built as trailers to run with steam railmotors, or built as purpose built trailers to run with auto fitted locomotives.  Locomotives were 2021s, 517s, Metros, 48xx (14xx) 54xx, 64xx, and finally BR 1953 converted 4575s, and trailers were matchboarded, panelled with or without bolection window frame mouldings and with or without central doors and vestibuled, and eventually steel bodied.  There were auto fitted clerestory conversions, 70 footers gangwayed in twin sets for the Plymouth area with intemediate trailer cabs shoehorned in beside the gangways, and a concertina style trailer with sliding doors operated by an overhead pulley system by the guard, which was rebuilt after only a few years into a more conventional saloon trailer with a distinctive window pattern,

 

On top of that there were Cardiff Railway trailers, not unlike GW bolection types in appearance, Taff Vale Railway gangwayed twin sets (these were originally fitted with the TV's rather Heath Robinson overhead cable pulley control gear) and some Rhymney Railway stock which included saloon intermediate panelled trailers, all of which made it beyond nationalisation.  A fertile field for RTR production one might have thought, but I am not privvy to the mechanics or economics of choosing prototypes for production.

 

The following list may not be exhaustive or even currently valid, and are not in any particular order, but these are what is available in 4mm TTBOMK:-

 

.A38 Hawkworth all steel 64' saloon trailer with sliding vent windows, Bachmann RTR.  Good model to current standards.

.A30 Collett all steel 60' saloon trailer, Hornby and ex-Mainline, ex Airfix RTR, good for it's day but a bit crude now, moulded detail and crude underframes, brakes not in line with wheels etc.

.A31 panelled Collett rebuild of Churchward SRM, Keyser whitemetal kit, very crude but to scale and can be worked up, very heavy, only available 2h, kit as supplied comes with incorrect American pattern bogies (Swindon built examples had single vestibule doors, GRCW built them with double doors, the kit has double doors and no GRCW SRM, or therefore A31 trailer rebuilt from it, had American bogies, you need to replace them with fishbellies or 7' Collett, both available as 3D prints from Stafford Road Works/Shapeways.

.A3 Clifton Downs compartment driving brake 3rd trailer, etched brass Roxey kit.

.A2 Clifton Downs compartment intermediate all 3rd non-driving trailer, etched brass Roxey kit.

.A30 Collett all steel as above, Wizard/Comet etched brass kit, better detail underframe and flush windows than the RTR.

.A44 BR 1953 rebuild of D117 Collett compartment brake 3rd 'Cyclops' trailer (single rectangular cab window), Wizard/Comet etched brass kit.

.A43 BR 1953 rebuild of C66/C75 Collett compartment all 3rd, Wizard.Comet etched brass kit.

.Diagram Q Plymouth area Churchward 70' panelled driving trailer, Worseley Works bodyshell kit.

.Diagram R Plymouth area Churchward 70' panelled intermediate trailer, Worseley Works bodyshell kit.

.Diagram A7 matchboarded saloon trailer, Recreation 21/Shapeways 3D print bodyshell.

.Diagram U panelled saloon trailer, Recreation 21/Shapeways 3D print bodyshell (this is the trailer for the Kernow SRM).

.Diagram Z matchboarded saloon trailer, R21/SW 3D print bodyshell.

.Rhymney Railway twin saloon panelled coach (3 of these were fitted with auto gear for use as intermediate auto trailers post-grouping), R21/SW 3D print bodyshell.

 

So there's a fairly eclectic mix out there once you include kits and 3D prints.  The big gap is in sub-70' panelled trailers, only the ancient, crude, and unavailable except on the 'Bay, Keyser A31 falling into that category.  The R21 3D prints are not cheap, which is not Simon's fault, but come as a complete shell less the floor, so sides, ends, and roof, and include printed buffers, bell, and roof vents, so one should offset the cost of those as retrofit items against the price of the bodyshell.  TTBOMK nobody makes replacement buffers or buffer housings for bow ended auto trailers in any form in 4mm. 

 

Worseley Works also say on their website that they will produce items to order if you ask for them, as commissions, and if they can do this at the price of their existing bodyshell kits will be an avenue well worth exploring.  I've made an enquiry and will report back when they respond.

 

The K's A31 is a whitemetal kit with cast in detail, but is not far off scale.  The sides are thick enough to serve as battleship armour plating, it needs a lot of whitemetal cast detail removing and replacing with better separate components, and doesn't have a floor or any interior detail.  Surprisingly, the underframe truss and turnbuckle rod detail is pretty good!  My two have floors and interiors and run very freely on Stafford Road/SW 3D bogies, which run superbly with Hornby or Bachmann carriage wheels (just as well given the weight!).

 

I have a Wizard/Comet etched brass A44 Cyclops and a matching A43 intermediate trailer, which is numbered as an A43 on one side for post 1953 running and as a C66 the other for pre-1953 running.  They are not difficult models to build, or put another way if Johnster the Bodgerigar can fold one together any proper modeller shoul have no trouble.  Fitting the door handles and grab rails is faffy and repetitive, but they look good when you've done it!  I also buil an E147 B set from Wizard/Comet, and had trouble with the bogies, 9' pressed steels, which sat out much wider than the bottom of the coach floor, looking very odd.  I've replaced them with donor bogies from 2h Mainline Siphons.  If you have to do this, it is critical to get the coach to balance correctly on the bogie pivots, or it will develop a list to port or starboard and become unseaworthy.  A rough washer made of foam rubber or old sponge material will help it stay upright, but don't jam it in too tight or the bogies will not swing readily on curves.

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I've cut a doorway into the rear wall of the Metcalfe new factory with the canopy, and made a pair of inward opening wooden doors for it.  It will be a galvanising and electroplating company, with traffic in and out; in will be opens of steel sheets under tarps and vans of things in boxes to be plated or galvanised, drums and possibly carboys of chemicals of the sorts used in the process, perhaps an excuse for shockvans or opens.  Out will be the treated products, again in opens or vans, and empty carboys or drums.

 

The scene needs some fire buckets full of sand and some 'No Smoking' notices, and some treatment to the northern end of the platform, which is bare card at the moment.  There is a gap between this building and the covered siding next door that is the food processing plant, about half an inch, but something needs doing with it.  A store of empty drums is the first thing that comes to mind...

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So there's hope of resurrection for this old nail?

As it's heavier than my 48xx, will I need to auto fit a Tri-ang 9F to pull it though?

 

(Other ancient sloggers are available.)

 

Seriously though, I would like to try and upgrade it.

 

IMG_20211005_005258.jpg.f99d7719605c67035e94c1e13b878ac8.jpg

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Floor, interior, handrails, lamp brackets, new bell, new bogies.  An advantage of the Stafford Road/Shapeways 3D bogies is that they are very free running with Hornby or Bachmann 14mm wheels, and have NEM pockets built in.  The free running enables my 4575s to manage a 2-trailer train with one of these and a plastic or etched brass trailer, but not two K's A31s.  Surprisingly, Bachmann 57xx/8750 panniers manage well enough, and on that basis I expect you'd get away with it using a 64xx, though it might be worth the bother of cramming as much ballast in over the wheels as you can! 

 

Not all auto trains were hauled/propelled by auto fitted locomotives all the time, and certainly at Tondu photos prove that haulage of auto trailers by 57xx, 8750, and 56xx was not unknown.  Of course, in these circumstances the train is hauled stock in the normal way, and has to be run around at the terminus and a brake continuity test performed when the loco couples back on.  A31s are not correct for Tondu but I have two of them, as place holders for panelled trailers that are not available RTR or as kits.  Diagram N and A10 would be more suitable.

 

I sort of understand why the RTR trade is reluctant to involve itself with anything other than post 1927 all steel trailers, as these were the trailers that lasted to or close to the end of steam and of auto working on the WR, and, A26 apart, most of the other diagrams were represented by small numbers of trailers, each of which were quite individualistic and do not offer the possibility of being converted to other types.  Hawksworth A38s, as produced by Bachmann, were used at Tondu, but not until after my period.

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8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Not all auto trains were hauled/propelled by auto fitted locomotives all the time, and certainly at Tondu photos prove that haulage of auto trailers by 57xx, 8750, and 56xx was not unknown.  Of course, in these circumstances the train is hauled stock in the normal way, and has to be run around at the terminus and a brake continuity test performed when the loco couples back on. 

There's a photo of an auto trailer, I'm not sure which diagram, on the Lyme Regis branch, hauled by an Ivatt 2mt tank, so anything's possible!

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Hawksworth A38, as produced by Bachmann, is the most likely by the time the Ivatts were running on the Lyme Regis branch. 
 

Haulage by non-auto locos was common on the Lambourne branch as well, where a combination of the need to cope with sometimes heavy and unpredictable tail traffic (horseboxes) coincided with a need for coaches with retractable steps to serve ground level halt platforms. 

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45 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Hawksworth A38, as produced by Bachmann, is the most likely by the time the Ivatts were running on the Lyme Regis branch. 

Thanks - the photo is about halfway down this page: http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/axminster-to-lyme-regis-branch.html - rather unhelpfully with the wrong caption!

 

I know that it occurred after the DMUs had officially taken over, as there was a shortage of them at the time.

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Yup, that's an A38 or A39 (the only difference was the seating layout).  It's being hauled with the cab end leading, which, if it were needed, is further evidence that the auto linkage was not connected as it was 'handed' and could not have been connected to that on an auto fitted loco.  Ivatt 2MTs were used on LMR push-pull trains, and possibly on Southern ones as well but I am not knowledgeable about such matters.

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25 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Yup, that's an A38 or A39 (the only difference was the seating layout).  It's being hauled with the cab end leading, which, if it were needed, is further evidence that the auto linkage was not connected as it was 'handed' and could not have been connected to that on an auto fitted loco.  Ivatt 2MTs were used on LMR push-pull trains, and possibly on Southern ones as well but I am not knowledgeable about such matters.

Looking at that picture, the Ivatt isn't Auto Fitted.
The LMS system was different to the GW system, so the loco and trailer wouldn't be compatible anyway. I think that's the case with the SR system too.
Regards,
Chris.

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The Ivatt wouldn't be fitted with the GW system anyway, but I am not able to comment on the Southern's system.  The GW, Southern, and LMR systems were not compatible with each other, the GW being operated by mechanical rodding and joints, and the others by vacuum or steam pressure.  The only GW classes fitted with auto gear in BR days were 14xx, 54xx, 64xx and, post 1953, some 4575 small prairies.  A loco fitted with LMR or SR gear would not be able to operate with a GW auto trailer in auto configuration.  TTBOMK, only the GW and WR used the term 'auto train', and further cofused the matter by referring to them as 'motor trains' in the working timetables.  I believe the LMR and SR referred to theirs as 'push-pull' trains.

 

On the GW, some 850, 2021, 517, and Metro class locos were fitted with the auto gear, and of these a small number of 517s and Metros scraped into very early BR usage, but were long gone by the 1960s.  The A38/9 trailers were built after nationalisation, and some Collett compartment non-gangwayed coaches coverted to driving and intermediate non-driving trailers in 1953.

 

Some confusion could result from photographs of locos hauling trains of auto trailers as normal hauled stock when the auto trailers are facing away from the loco, and this sometimes occurred with auto fitted locos with the gear not being connected for some reason.  In this case there would be no visual indication in the photo that the auto gear was not connected unless it was a broadside on shot.

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Your list of Auto trailer kits is missing quite a few according to http://www.gwr.org.uk/kits4coacha.html .

Most regrettably the Matchboard sided A7 & A9 formerly made by Mallard/Blacksmith but now consigned to the Coopercraft black hole. Still occasionally appear 2nd hand.

A27 and 29 from CPL, Phoenix might be nice too but I've not seen them. 

 

According to the above list Nucast partners do a whitemetal A26 but that's another 70' job so not so much use for us valleys modellers.

 

The trouble with GWR auto trailers is that so many were one off SRM conversions or small batches.

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Information most useful, Sir; I was unaware of the  existence of these kits.  I shudder to think how heavy a whitemetal A26 would be; the shorter A31 is a hefty bit of a beast!  I've had a response from Allen at Worseley about the TVR twinsets, so this is not yet a complete dead end and the N and A10 might be possible as well.  Lionheart and subsequently Dapol clearly thought/think the N is worth the trouble in 7mm.

 

I think there is a limit to what one can reasonably expect from the trade; as you rightly point out, many diagrams of GW auto trailers were produced in very small numbers and all are significantly different from each other.  On top of that many of these small classes, especially the SRM rebuilds, had different bogies within the class; for instance the A31, nine coaches in total, featured 3 types of bogie (8'6" fishbelly, American, and 7' Collett), as well as two types of passenger vestibule doors, and some had the toplights plated over in BR days.  It is inevitable that RTR or even kit producers tend to focus on the later all steel types, as these tick the box of lasting into the 1960s and are, because of the lack of panelling, presumably easier and cheaper to tool for.  Overall, considering that a lot of modellers will be happy to represent auto working on their layouts with the existing RTR examples, the variety of types that can be found among the kit and 3D print suppliers is impressive.  It hardly seems reasonable for me to complain about the situation simply because nobody has produced RTR, kits, or 3D prints for the particular examples I require for my 1950s Tondu Valleys layout, and of course the Hornby A30, Wizard/Comet A43/4, and the Roxey Clifton Downs driving trailer are all ideal for this application.

Edited by The Johnster
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