SG's descent into comparing Swiss n gauge - Formally; SBB Coaching Stock Liveries

[DavidMcKenzie]

The wagons looks good. I might be mistaken but I think there is a good photo of a rake of them in your holiday photo thread. Are they the same ones? 

[Satan's Goldfish]

Blimey, that would be a lot of pics to look through... possibly, possibly not depending on where the picture is; if it's on the RhB then no, but thinking about it there may have been some loitering at Chur or Landquart on the SBB. Can't recall ever seeing any at Luzern.

[Twiss11]

This topic started on coach liveries and manufacturers, so I wondered if anyone could solve the riddle of two Lima (old dark blue box) orange coaches which appear to be a short version of the Eurofimas. I acquired two, in identical boxes, both numbered 32 0308 (a number which turns up green coaches on spurweite n). Spur-n-schweiz do not even have 320308 in the Lima/Minitrain list. So question 1: are these in the wrong boxes? Question 2: are these rare, and therefore valuable, or are they just 'old Lima' and not worth much. They are obviously an early model as the windows are very deeply set. They are definitely Lima, by the way, because it is moulded into the underside. I suspect Gordon may have the answer to this...

[Satan's Goldfish]

I can't say if they're in the wrong boxes or not, but from my enquiries I can pretty safely say even if they are rare, then they won't be valuable. As you've already spotted, those Lima coaches are too short. Some of Lima's stuff is ok, I've got a couple of their coaches, but there are are compromises with a lot of their items which make them not fetch the same prices as other manufacturers. 

[Satan's Goldfish]

Having a bit more research trouble, sorry! I've a memory (not my strong point) of a YouTube video with a post train on, and I'm sure it had a mixture of post containers and more traditional vans in the same train, it may have even been green luggage vans, but I can't find it now or any pictures via Google of such a formation. Did I imagine that? If not, is there an n gauge model of older style yellow post vans available? I know there's models of the modern large sliding wall vans available, but I think they were introduced around 2015 which is a big too modern really.

 

Kind of related question; when was the type of luggage van made by Arnold used until? It's got the PTT logo on... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143607835214 

[chb2488]

You may have been thinking of this, although there are no container cars in there:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AoFZhjHiSA

 

The Arnold model is somewhat freelance like the old HAG luggage/post car, they are losely based on the five Leichtstahl DZ that used to run until the mid-90‘s.

[MOB 2002]

I suspect this is a bit earlier than what you have in mind, but lots of varied post train formations from 1990 to be found in this gem:

 

 

Mark

 

[MOB 2002]

It’s just struck me that this thread might be a good location for something that’s been nagging me for ages as it started with lots of Swiss carriage questions.
 

I’ve seen photos of SBB bogie balcony carriages that appear to pre-date the Seetal pattern. Although presumably they formed the basis of the driving trailers used with the Seetal carriages and De4/4s, like this (and as modelled by Hochstrasser):

 

 https://bahnbilder-von-max.ch/large-picture-containers/sbb/strecke-seetal/beinwil-beromuenster//picture_01908.html

From what I’ve seen they appear to be balcony versions of the heavy steel carriages as modelled by Fleischmann.
 

Am I completely barking up the wrong tree?

 

Mark

 

[Frutigen]

Mabar did a run of the yellow 4 wheel post vans - one pair each with slogans in German, French or Italian, - along with a version in the older green livery. I’ve seen these run in trains with Hbbillns sliding wall vans in Cargo livery similar to the Minitrix model, and I’m pretty sure I’ve seen photos or video of them running with short luggage vans similar to the Arnold one in the photo here, but can’t find them now.

 

 

As for mixing the 4 wheel vans and containers, I did find two photos on Flickr that seem to bracket the timeframe for that. One photo from 2011 shows a train of vans with one container wagon in it, while another from 2020 shows a long train of post containers with a single yellow 4 wheel van towards the back. 

In the photo above, my Hobbytrain postal containers are riding on a Minitrix 4 wheel container flat, not as convincing as the ones from Fleischmann. 

 

[chb2488]

@MOB 2002:

 

You‘re quite right, during the 60s the then-called Hauptwerkstätte (HW) built numerous coaches on old underframes, some with balconies (driving trailers as well as normal coaches), coaches with closed entrances as per the Fleischmann model and even RIC corridor seconds and corridor composites (available in N gauge unless I‘m mistaken).

[Satan's Goldfish]

47 minutes ago, chb2488 said:

@MOB 2002:

 

You‘re quite right, during the 60s the then-called Hauptwerkstätte (HW) built numerous coaches on old underframes, some with balconies (driving trailers as well as normal coaches), coaches with closed entrances as per the Fleischmann model and even RIC corridor seconds and corridor composites (available in N gauge unless I‘m mistaken).

 

Would that be this type of RIC composite as made by Hobbytrain? 

 

 

Sorry about the quality, it's a 'crop' of a picture on the last page. I've been trying to deduce what the general use for these composite coaches was, I've only seen them in pictures and vids in green livery so assume they're not still in use. The RIC 2nd... I think the still in use version (as made by Kato) is a 2nd open rather than 2nd corridor? 

[chb2488]

The composite in your picture was part of the UIC X fleet, they were quite useful for smaller „through portions“. The second corridors from the UIC Z2 fleet (11 compartments, as against 12 for the UIC X) were converted to second open and are finally being phased out (that being the Kato models).

 

 The rebuilt RIC B and AB looked like this: 

 

http://www.nostalgie-rhein-express.ch/wagen/ab-wagen/

 

A handful of composite corridors survive, but no second corridor as far as I‘m aware.

[Gordonwis]

1 hour ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

Would that be this type of RIC composite as made by Hobbytrain? 

 

 

Sorry about the quality, it's a 'crop' of a picture on the last page. I've been trying to deduce what the general use for these composite coaches was, I've only seen them in pictures and vids in green livery so assume they're not still in use. The RIC 2nd... I think the still in use version (as made by Kato) is a 2nd open rather than 2nd corridor? 

 

The SBB 'RIC' (UIC X type) were all delivered as compartment coaches for international use. I remember travelling in them from the early 1970s onwards. I saw them a lot from base in Geneva, so that was on trains such as the Genève - Paris, Genève - Roma, Genève - Venezia, and Genève - Hamburg.

 

In the mid-1980s the vast majority were rebuilt into open 2nds for internal use. They went from original green with the SBB + CFF lettering to all green with the <+> SBB CFF FFS lettering, then to green / grey with  <+> SBB CFF FFS lettering. Some (an ever decreasing number sadly) are still in service in the latter livery.

 

Unless I'm much mistaken, the RIC were not built using old underframes

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Gordonwis

[Gordonwis]

8 hours ago, Frutigen said:

 

In the photo above, my Hobbytrain postal containers are riding on a Minitrix 4 wheel container flat, not as convincing as the ones from Fleischmann. 

 

 

Is that because you don't have any of the Creanorm version? 

[chb2488]

The RIC AB4ü and B4ü I referred to with the link seem indeed to have been rebuilt by the HW, as stated on the page linked. They roughly followed the floor plan of the newly built Schlieren RIC Type BLS. You may have been thinking of the older RIC corridor coaches as per the Roco model, which I daresay were new builds (at the time...).

[MOB 2002]

4 hours ago, chb2488 said:

@MOB 2002:

 

You‘re quite right, during the 60s the then-called Hauptwerkstätte (HW) built numerous coaches on old underframes, some with balconies (driving trailers as well as normal coaches), coaches with closed entrances as per the Fleischmann model and even RIC corridor seconds and corridor composites (available in N gauge unless I‘m mistaken).

Thanks, much appreciated.
 

I can sense a hunt for some cheap Fleischmann carriages coming, I’ve already got a couple of ideas!

 

Mark

[Satan's Goldfish]

Back to vans with postal containers; I've found the formation and screen shot the video (all credit to REOS) and they look to be a green version of the vans that Fruitigen has pictured. Seen 2x videos from different locations with this type of formation in over the Easter weekend, good to know I didn't imagine it

[Gordonwis]

7 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

Back to vans with postal containers; I've found the formation and screen shot the video (all credit to REOS) and they look to be a green version of the vans that Fruitigen has pictured. Seen 2x videos from different locations with this type of formation in over the Easter weekend, good to know I didn't imagine it

 

 

Good to have the confirmation of his combination, although I was happy it could have happened because some of the 'Z2' vans lasted a long time in green.  I couldn't find the combination in my own pictures, but I have the Creanorm containers and the green and yellow Mabar versions of the 'Z2' Swiss post van

 

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Gordonwis

[Satan's Goldfish]

I just had to check something I'd posted earlier in the thread. Something about the orange FS Eurofima coach never looked quite right (outside of ride height and build quality from Arnold!) when coupled to the grey Eurocity coaches. Ref the picture below, the white stripe on the SBB orange coach lines up nicely with the white stripe on the grey coach, but the white stripe on the FS coach pictured on page 2 isn't even close lining up! All credit to HansP74 on YouTube for the screen shot:

 

 

So the questions that result from this are!

 

1. Do prototype different nationality orange Eurofima coaches have the white stripe at different heights? I thought they were supposed to be the same, but I haven't seen a picture of an SBB coach coupled to an FS coach.

 

2. From previous Ebay trawls, I know somebody does/did manufacture decent N gauge 2nd class orange SBB Eurofima coaches, but I can't find any now. Can anyone remember who it was?

 

The orange FS coach will eventually move across to a complete FS train rather than being mixed in with SBB stock so if the white line is at the wrong level then hopefully it's less noticeable there.

 

Cheers

[Gordonwis]

5 hours ago, Satan&#x27;s Goldfish said:

I just had to check something I'd posted earlier in the thread. Something about the orange FS Eurofima coach never looked quite right (outside of ride height and build quality from Arnold!) when coupled to the grey Eurocity coaches. Ref the picture below, the white stripe on the SBB orange coach lines up nicely with the white stripe on the grey coach, but the white stripe on the FS coach pictured on page 2 isn't even close lining up! All credit to HansP74 on YouTube for the screen shot:

 

 

 

2. From previous Ebay trawls, I know somebody does/did manufacture decent N gauge 2nd class orange SBB Eurofima coaches, but I can't find any now. Can anyone remember who it was?

 

 

1st class only I think

[Satan's Goldfish]

10 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

1st class only I think

 

Damn :( Cheers Gordon.

[Anadin Dogwalker]

No there were 2nd class orange Eurofimas (I remember them in the Roco catalogue) but not necessarily all nationalities- ie 1st class was more common.  The orange stock was still much in evidence on my first trip in 1991 but many more had adopted national liveries. My Dad and I rode in one from Lausanne to Brig on a very hot August afternoon in a first class compartment with dodgy air con, further "enhanced" with a dud can of Feldschlossen that was more aluminium than beer.

 

The next trips were 1994 and 2000 and the only orange cars I remember were the UIC diners (as per Lilliput HO model), usually spliced between 2-tone grey Eurofimas. They were quite common on the Gotthard: the morning Basel-Milan EC we rode from Luzern was Panorama, 1st, restaurant, grey seconds then a block of EWiv that were detached at Chiasso. We walked the Dazio Grande the following day and caught another consist at Faido with 3 panoramawagons, an orange diner then 2nd class eurofimas, followed by a scratch set subbing for the hastily withdrawn RABe sets (an axle had sheared in half IIRC), Eurofima first, orange diner and 2 x 2nds. This was also the make up of the Zurich-Munich EC consists which we caught less than an hour apart at St Margarethen, headed by Re4/4iis with the wider OBB/DB-spec pantograph heads for working to Lindau.

 

FWIW, the only red EWi diner we shot was on its way to Chur at Ziegelbrucke, the rest  were in Buffet Suisse purple and gray except for the few Cheese Express cars. We saw one of those northbound at Rodi-Fiesso and another parked at Brig with its pantograph up (the only time I've ever seen a diner drawing power) . All the EWiii diners wore BS livery and were separated from the rest of the EWiii sets, which were still in 70s Swiss Express paint at the time. 

The EWiv s were red and gray as delivered but we did catch the Migros and McDonalds repaints at Olten and without exception were in consist with other green and gray EWivs on the east-west internal services. I don't remember seeing any on the Gotthard or Lotchberg routes.

Got to get the prints digitised some day...

[Satan's Goldfish]

Useful insight there Anadin Dogwalker, what 'the norm' was for trains on certain route seems to change very regularly in Switzerland and if nobody has uploaded a video to YouTube from a particular location at a certain time of a certain year then it's anyone's guess what was actually running! I can remember travelling on a 'Swiss Express' set in 1990 from Zurich Airport to Luzern and how bright it's colour scheme seemed to be compared to the dull dark green on everything else.

 

The screenshot from YouTube above was from a video dated 1999 to 2001 and had 2x orange 2nd class (i think, minute 1 of video below) Eurofimas with SBB branding running with the grey version so some of them did survive until quite late on. I know some of the original orange 1st class Eurofima got painted into grey and can be seen in some YouTube vids (the windows are different from the majority of the grey coaches) but I've never noticed a window difference on any of the grey 2nd class coaches which would tie in with the 1st class being more common.

 

 

 

[Gordonwis]

On 03/07/2021 at 11:17, Anadin Dogwalker said:

No there were 2nd class orange Eurofimas (I remember them in the Roco catalogue) but not necessarily all nationalities- ie 1st class was more common. 

 

Sorry, to clarify I was referring to N gauge models. There were no 2nd class N gauge SBB Eurofima models as far as I know

[Satan's Goldfish]

On 04/07/2021 at 15:25, Gordonwis said:

 

Sorry, to clarify I was referring to N gauge models. There were no 2nd class N gauge SBB Eurofima models as far as I know

 

Ibertren by the looks of it, https://www.ricardo.ch/de/a/spur-n-sbb-eurofima-2.kl.-von-ibertren-1111135012/ any comment on the quality of ibertren? I'm not that familiar with them.

 

Additional: I didn't think minitrix did anything scale length in Eurofima orange, but then this appeared! https://www.spurweite-n.de/ncontent/ndb/ndb-artdetails.asp?ID=453054140&DoLog=0&LogType=0&NoLog=1&Sel_Hersteller_FString=Minitrix&Sel_ORDERBY=Produktdatum&ToShow=3379&MaxCount=4478 shame it's 1st class.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Satan's Goldfish