SG's descent into comparing Swiss n gauge - Formally; SBB Coaching Stock Liveries

[Gordonwis]

WM Collectables at Warley had some Swiss N at reasonable prices so that's where I spent my day's budget!

 

As you can see one item was the green version in 'modern logo' livery. They also had the green/grey version but as previously noted I don't want that version. I believe the 'modern green' version is an even harder to find model so I was pleased (it was cheaper than the green/grey one too! I haven't done the height comparison yet!

 

[Satan's Goldfish]

Nice find, I don't think I've seen a 'modern logo' version before! 

 

Were they also modelled in 'parrot' livery? 

[Montreux_1991]

On 04/12/2022 at 10:35, Satan's Goldfish said:

Nice find, I don't think I've seen a 'modern logo' version before! 

 

Were they also modelled in 'parrot' livery? 

 

The short answer: no

 

The longer answer, picking up some earlier points from this thread:

 

To the best of my knowledge (over 30 years) the Minitrix body moulding is unchanged since 1969. If the bogies have changed, it's barely noticeable as the model still sits too high.

 

I have seen and owned the following liveries:
- as originally produced, light green with 'old logo' and silver window frames (ugh)
- catalogue number 13362, dark green with 'new logo' 

- catalogue number 13363, grey / green 'EWIV livery'

- catalogue number 13364, BLS blue / cream

All come up regularly on German Ebay.

 

Ruco offered Minitrix repaints into older BN and BLS liveries

 

Wabu offered a cut-and-shut Lima / Arnold conversion in the 1990s. Livery options included dark green with 'old logo' and the 'parrot' livery.

 

Even before Hobbytrain announced their orange Bpm, a new flush-glazed EWII gepackwagen (preferably by Piko, the prototype ran on EWI bogies) was top of my wish list. Is it me or is there a gap / gaping multi-liveried hole in the market?

 

 

[Satan's Goldfish]

As a modeller, we seem to like matching sets of coaches, but manufacturers tend to do the more common liveries which can often leave gaps unfortunately. However, watching far too many 'period' YouTube videos it would be entirely prototypical to have a train with no 2 coaches in matching colours or types.

 

Moving on; what's the general opinion of the Arnold ew i? In pictures they look shorter than the Lima offering but I can't work out why or if it's just an illusion on my screen.

[Montreux_1991]

4 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

As a modeller, we seem to like matching sets of coaches, but manufacturers tend to do the more common liveries which can often leave gaps unfortunately. However, watching far too many 'period' YouTube videos it would be entirely prototypical to have a train with no 2 coaches in matching colours or types.

 

Moving on; what's the general opinion of the Arnold ew i? In pictures they look shorter than the Lima offering but I can't work out why or if it's just an illusion on my screen.

 

Comparing Arnold and Lima EWIs could get confusing.

 

There are three sets of models in circulation:

- 1980s Minibahn / Lima Minitrain / Lima / Arnold, the gold standard until recently despite the wide bogies and body-mounted steps. The body is 144mm long, correctly representing an EWI after R4 Hauptrevision (1973 onwards) during which the body was extended over the buffers and 'Gummiwurst' rubber gangways replaced suspended gangways

- 1960s Arnold. Listed as 139mm, this would be the correct body length for an EWI in original condition

- 1970s Lima, possibly Wrenn / Lima. From photos there appears to have been one body moulding (eight seating bays, widely spaced i.e. first class) sold as both first and second class, unextended but with moulded-on 'Gummiwurst' gangways.

 

What comparison did you have in mind?

[Satan's Goldfish]

Yup, I predict an expensive future! https://www.railwaymodelstore.co.uk/hobbytrain-n-gauge-sbb-uic-z1-coach-set-eurofima-orange-2-iv-25501/

[Satan's Goldfish]

17 minutes ago, Montreux_1991 said:

 

Comparing Arnold and Lima EWIs could get confusing.

 

There are three sets of models in circulation:

- 1980s Minibahn / Lima Minitrain / Lima / Arnold, the gold standard until recently despite the wide bogies and body-mounted steps. The body is 144mm long, correctly representing an EWI after R4 Hauptrevision (1973 onwards) during which the body was extended over the buffers and 'Gummiwurst' rubber gangways replaced suspended gangways

- 1960s Arnold. Listed as 139mm, this would be the correct body length for an EWI in original condition

- 1970s Lima, possibly Wrenn / Lima. From photos there appears to have been one body moulding (eight seating bays, widely spaced i.e. first class) sold as both first and second class, unextended but with moulded-on 'Gummiwurst' gangways.

 

What comparison did you have in mind?

 

My current Lima examples are the Minibahn/Minitrain options.

 

As for Arnold; the example model pictured below I think is item no. 3709 and has the same number of windows as the Minitrains coaches I currently possess. Do the box graphics and end detail on the coach help identify the age of the model? The 'comfort stripe' looks quite thick too!

 

 

[Montreux_1991]

1 hour ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

My current Lima examples are the Minibahn/Minitrain options.

 

As for Arnold; the example model pictured below I think is item no. 3709 and has the same number of windows as the Minitrains coaches I currently possess. Do the box graphics and end detail on the coach help identify the age of the model? The 'comfort stripe' looks quite thick too!

 

 

 

Minibahn / Minitrain were always a good choice, for EWI and the EWII composite.

 

The model above is from the 1960s Arnold tooling.

 

3708 (first class) and 3709 (second class) were 'Swiss specials' produced in 1989 and from memory, still in Swiss model shops in the early 1990s. At the time something (possibly those handrails?) didn't seem quite right so my hard-earned CHF went elsewhere, but now I can put my finger on it and confirm:

- this is an old model of an unrefurbished  EWI, wearing the comfort stripe applied only to EWIIs on major refurbishment in the late 1980s, and 

- Brawa 65206/7/8 are superb

 

[Montreux_1991]

1 hour ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

Yup, I predict an expensive future! https://www.railwaymodelstore.co.uk/hobbytrain-n-gauge-sbb-uic-z1-coach-set-eurofima-orange-2-iv-25501/

 

I'm predicting £120 for the twin pack. Ideally I'd only need three coaches, but I'm not 100% convinced by any of the (three) options for the UIC-X Bpm that came next in the prototype formation, so I might just buy and keep - not split - two packs...

 

 

 

 

[Gordonwis]

12 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

As a modeller, we seem to like matching sets of coaches, but manufacturers tend to do the more common liveries which can often leave gaps unfortunately. However, watching far too many 'period' YouTube videos it would be entirely prototypical to have a train with no 2 coaches in matching colours or types.

 

Moving on; what's the general opinion of the Arnold ew i? In pictures they look shorter than the Lima offering but I can't work out why or if it's just an illusion on my screen.

 

 

To avoid further confusion, I will attempt to sum up the models of EWI and EWII.

 

There have been in total at least eight (!) iterations:

 

1) Arnold Rapido 1960s tooling 

2) Lima 1960s tooling

3) Lima '2nd generation' tooling (ie sometime around 1982 someone at LIma has a Eureka moment and realised their models need to be retooled to be closer to scale and better all round)

4) as (3) but rebranded Minitrain

5) as (3) but rebranded Minibahn

6) as (3) but rebranded as Arnold following the (pre Hornby takeover) merger of Lima with Rivarissoi/Jouef/Arnold  and partially retooled (bogies and couplings) 

7) Brawa

8) Piko 

 

Most current 'serious' modellers of Swiss outline would eschew variants 1 and 2 due to their dated crudeness

 

type 1 can be seen here:

https://www.spur-n-schweiz.ch/sns/jpg/arnold/3720.jpg

 

type 2 can be seen here:

https://116a8a99fe.cbaul-cdnwnd.com/ce6c9316a2a4be859b605834f641b522/200000220-0e00d0ff2e-public/IMG_6369.JPG

 

type 3 - 6 can be seen here:

 https://www.spur-n-schweiz.ch/sns/jpg/lima-minitrain/320812.jpg

 

 

 

 

[Montreux_1991]

7 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

 

 

To avoid further confusion, I will attempt to sum up the models of EWI and EWII.

 

There have been in total at least eight (!) iterations:

 

1) Arnold Rapido 1960s tooling 

2) Lima 1960s tooling

3) Lima '2nd generation' tooling (ie sometime around 1982 someone at LIma has a Eureka moment and realised their models need to be retooled to be closer to scale and better all round)

4) as (3) but rebranded Minitrain

5) as (3) but rebranded Minibahn

6) as (3) but rebranded as Arnold following the (pre Hornby takeover) merger of Lima with Rivarissoi/Jouef/Arnold  and partially retooled (bogies and couplings) 

7) Brawa

8) Piko 

 

Most current 'serious' modellers of Swiss outline would eschew variants 1 and 2 due to their dated crudeness

 

type 1 can be seen here:

https://www.spur-n-schweiz.ch/sns/jpg/arnold/3720.jpg

 

type 2 can be seen here:

https://116a8a99fe.cbaul-cdnwnd.com/ce6c9316a2a4be859b605834f641b522/200000220-0e00d0ff2e-public/IMG_6369.JPG

 

type 3 - 6 can be seen here:

 https://www.spur-n-schweiz.ch/sns/jpg/lima-minitrain/320812.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

That didn't look quite right. After doing a bit more research I think it should read:

 

1) Arnold Rapido 1960s tooling 

2) Lima '1st generation' tooling

3) Lima '2nd generation' tooling, EWI first and second in SBB 'old logo' livery were NEW in the 1985 catalogue

4) Lima marketed by Minibahn from 1988, with an expanded range of SBB and BLS liveries and an aspiration (with catalogue photos) to produce the Gepackwagen in five liveries (!)

5) Lima marketed as Lima Minitrain from 1991, adding the EWII composite which was illustrated with a photograph in the catalogue but actually available to buy that year. I bought one.

6) as (3) but rebranded as Arnold following the (pre Hornby takeover) merger of Lima with Rivarissoi/Jouef/Arnold, partially retooled (bogies and couplings, flush doors where appropriate) and improved finish

7) Brawa

8) Piko

 

LIMA-N scale-COMPLETE CATALOGUE (webnode.cz) helped fill in the pre-1991 backstory of the Lima '2nd generation' tooling.

 

The MINIBAHN ??? catalogue was of particular interest, so I ran Dr Kurt Moser's foreword through Google Translate:

After HOBBYTRAIN, I have created a second, completely independent product line with MINIBAHN. In 1988 I had the opportunity to take over the LIMA N-gauge area. I now have two goals. On the one hand, I want to raise the quality standard of the models that have been offered up to now and thus make the models attractive to you, on the other hand, I would like to introduce new models in a simpler design than has been usual with HOBBYTRAIN. This would enable us to produce smaller numbers of a model at almost the same price and thus also to bring out models that were not so widespread and could therefore only be sold in smaller numbers. I believe that this is also in your interest. As the first new project, we are approaching the BLS wagons, which we are presenting in different paintwork and lettering variants. Then we will manufacture the VT08.5. For the beginning of 1990 it is planned to bring out the NPZ in five variants, the four test performances and the final SBB series version

 

Sadly Dr Kurt Moser's model railway empire collapsed around 1990, so the final Hobbytrain and Minibahn 'new items' mostly came to nothing, and some remain on my personal wish-list after more than 30 years...

 

[Satan's Goldfish]

I see Hobbytrain do/did articulated container wagons with Swiss post containers on. I couldn't recall ever noticing those containers on anything other than the 2 axle flats (as modelled by Creanorm) but a quick Google revealed 1 prototype picture of some of those flats and containers forming a train.

 

This got me wondering though; were any post services run with a mixture of flat wagon types? And what other types of flat could these containers be found on? Other than seeing them transshipped onto narrow gauge wagons, I assume they are also loaded onto lorries? Or offloaded from the trains somewhere anyway!

[Gordonwis]

I have seen and photted hundreds of Swiss post trains over the last 15 years or so and seldom seen post containers on bogie flats. I think it is the least common.

 

The post containers can be transhipped to lorries and of course to the RhB ng

 

 

You might like to study the Google satellite image of the Daillens post centre in Canton Vaud :

 

 https://goo.gl/maps/941Nf7iX2oTatVw4A

Edited August 26, 2023 by Gordonwis

[Satan's Goldfish]

Thank you Gordon, that removes all doubt. The model making companies use other types more often than the real thing does!

[Gordonwis]

18 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

Thank you Gordon, that removes all doubt. The model making companies use other types more often than the real thing does!

 

Yes, i think that is the case. Out of interest where did you see the picture of the bogie wagon with post containers?

 

I have  a large collection of SBB post vehicles as they run so  often (for example at weekends when fewer other freights run). I think I've got an example of all types  from the Mabar 4w  through the Fleischmann Habis type to the ex SNCF dome roof 26m type (including the 1970s Lima 4 wheel van in SBB green!) except the articulated fixed axle vans that used to run.

[Satan's Goldfish]

On 27/08/2023 at 01:33, Gordonwis said:

 

Yes, i think that is the case. Out of interest where did you see the picture of the bogie wagon with post containers?

 

 

 

 

Linked from Flickr. Looking closer now (I was on my tiny phone screen before) only the first wagon is bogie articulated, then followed by 3 of the usual 2 axle type. A prototype for mixing the wagon types!

 

Looking at what other manufacturers are offering in different scales, I'd be interested in finding a prototype picture of other 2 axle wagon types with a pair of post containers on.

[Gordonwis]

On 28/08/2023 at 06:30, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

 

 

Linked from Flickr. Looking closer now (I was on my tiny phone screen before) only the first wagon is bogie articulated, then followed by 3 of the usual 2 axle type. A prototype for mixing the wagon types!

 

Looking at what other manufacturers are offering in different scales, I'd be interested in finding a prototype picture of other 2 axle wagon types with a pair of post containers on.

 

 

Ah yes, taken by Don Gatehouse (SRS member) , who I have chatted with often.

 

Lead wagon looks to me like the '495' type which would make Hobbytrain's AAE owned twin artic 495 type with four post containers (ref 23707) an accurate model. 

 

 

I had a hunt for any info on Poste Suisse web site. I can't see a 'wagon fleet' section, but worth a look here       https://www.post.ch/en/business-solutions/small-consignments-and-transport                  if only for the picture of the container transfer

 

This is also worth a look:

 

https://www.bahn-journalist.ch/pdf/ru_2015_11-12_postwaggons.pdf

 

 

 

.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Gordonwis

[Gordonwis]

More Swiss post:

 

Here's the shortest post consist I've seen for a while (Rupperswil, May 2023):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This photo is interesting - despite the article I posted from 2015 saying 4 wheel post vehicles would be abolished - here some are in May 2023 (Aarau). No containers at all in this train!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No artics in this consist (Rupperswil December 2022):

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Gordonwis

[Satan's Goldfish]

Evening all. A question (and Google is not being my friend with this) occured earlier today in a conversation. Can anyone shed an light on what the Roco coaches pictured below are from? Sorry about the crap quality. They don't match any prototype pictures I've seen, and apart from that now ended Ebay listing I've never seen the models anywhere else.

 

 

[chb2488]

These are fantasy models inspired by the Chäs Express EW I WR, most likely done by Staiber. A quick search on google brings up a matching (cheesy) Re 4/4 IV and Re 460.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Thank you, adding Staiber and Chas (rather than kase!) Seems to have helped. Looks like they a very much hens teeth, more of the HO versions appear rather than anything N, found some info on the buffet but still no sign of the 1st coach or any others that may have been made. I'll keep hunting!