Neilson Tank Engines Boxy and Not Boxy

[844fan]

Hey everyone,

Got another little information hunt. This time I'm looking for details on some of the Neilson built classes of Tank engines. Now I'm particularly looking for information on some of the various types of their Box Tank class but I'm not just limiting myself I know Neilson made some fine industrial locomotives including Well tanks, Side tanks and saddle tanks with all kinds of valve gear.

 

I really need some plans of the various types of Box Tanks. But if anyone has recommendations of some good books covering Neilson's other designs I would be really grateful for help. Also does anyone know how powerful these little engines were? I know that a later Avonside would be able to pull trains much larger but I don't want to count the little boxes out. 

[br2975]

I don't have the details to hand at the moment, but there were a couple of articles published during the mid-1980s in Model Railways ( the reincarnation of Model Railway News ) by Iain Rice outlining the Neilson 'Box Tanks' and how he built a 4mm scale, P4, version for his Tregarrick layout. 

.

I also seem to recall an article in the same magazine detailing the construction of a metre gauge (or 3'3" gauge) version in something like gauge 1 or 10mm/ft scale in the same magazine during the mid-80s. 

.

Sorry to be vague, but I'm at work at the moment, so my files aren't at hand.

.

Brian R

[844fan]

I don't have the details to hand at the moment, but there were a couple of articles published during the mid-1980s in Model Railways ( the reincarnation of Model Railway News ) by Iain Rice outlining the Neilson 'Box Tanks' and how he built a 4mm scale, P4, version for his Tregarrick layout. 

.

I also seem to recall an article in the same magazine detailing the construction of a metre gauge (or 3'3" gauge) version in something like gauge 1 or 10mm/ft scale in the same magazine during the mid-80s. 

.

Sorry to be vague, but I'm at work at the moment, so my files aren't at hand.

.

Brian R

Not to worry my friend. I hope your day goes well and once you can you'll let me know more on the articles. I personally am off to bed. Living 6 hours or more behind the UK is a bother at times but it can't be helped.

[br2975]

Living 6 hours or more behind the UK is a bother at times ........

 

You're six hours 'behind the UK' ?

.

Is that a result of Brexit ?

Edited January 4, 2017 by br2975

[Edwardian]

Hey everyone,

Got another little information hunt. This time I'm looking for details on some of the Neilson built classes of Tank engines. Now I'm particularly looking for information on some of the various types of their Box Tank class but I'm not just limiting myself I know Neilson made some fine industrial locomotives including Well tanks, Side tanks and saddle tanks with all kinds of valve gear.

 

I really need some plans of the various types of Box Tanks. But if anyone has recommendations of some good books covering Neilson's other designs I would be really grateful for help. Also does anyone know how powerful these little engines were? I know that a later Avonside would be able to pull trains much larger but I don't want to count the little boxes out. 

 

Like these?

[844fan]

You're six hours 'behind the UK' ?

.

Is that a result of Brexit ?

No no I live in the US in the Central Time Zone. I have a friend in Cardif and we did the math to see how far appart our time zones were and it is like this. If it is noon for me it is 6 P.M. for him. It's just a time zone differnce.

 

Like these?

Fine examples of Neilson Box tank on top and the red one is a Neilson too so yes like these in particular the type like the one in B&W.

[Nearholmer]

Not quite sure what you are looking to discover, but Neilson was a long-lived builder, so their designs matured over time.

 

Basic primer here http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Neilson_and_Co

 

If you follow-up on the links to individual editions of The Engineer you can probably find more drawings.

 

The other source is the archive of copies of journals on the Industrial Railway Society website. It is a bit of a 'needle in a haystack' job, but there are photos, and I think drawings, of smaller Neilson locos in those journals.

 

Regards, Kevin

 

PS: Iain Rice was into these box tanks in the mid-1970s, I remember operating the layout next to his at an exhibition and he had a couple running, so maybe try articles that he wrote at that time.

 

PPS: there is nice a drawing of a box tank here http://www.westsomersetmineralrailway.org.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=8442&type=full&servicetype=Attachment

 

PPS: that kept me from insanity while waiting for a call centre operative to sort some insurance out for me!

Edited January 4, 2017 by Nearholmer

[wagonman]

As you can see from Edwardian's photo the Box Tanks were an old and rather primitive design dating back to the 1850s. They were designed as contractors' locos so were light and not terribly powerful – essentially a substitute for half a dozen horses.

 

The later ones with the ogee tanks had 12" cylinders and were a bit more powerful. High Level do an excellent kit in 4mm scale, Springside a rather more basic one in 7mm. So far as I know nobody does a kit for the Box Tanks so that would be a scratchbuilding job (likely including the wheels!).

 

The little Neilson tanks are appealing in an odd sort of way – I have a definite hankering for one of the ogee tanks...

Edited January 4, 2017 by wagonman

[bertiedog]

The Box tank drawing looks good, relatively easy to arrange the parts, I wonder about those wheels though?

 

Stephen

[Nearholmer]

Having checked, the drawing comes from this book http://westsomersetrailway.vticket.co.uk/article.php/199/the-brendon-hills-iron-mines-and-the-west-somerset-mineral-railway-book-by-m-h-jones-available-now

 

It is a super-lavish publication, with stacks of marvellous drawings, maps, and photos, including two very clear views of the box tank loco, as well as the drawing.

 

I also checked 'Chronicles of Boulton's Siding', but although he had at least one Neilson through his hands, there is no drawing, simply a reference to a detailed article about their tank engines in an ancient edition of The Locomotive, which I don't think is accessible on-line.

 

Or, you could work from this drawing http://thegermanengine.deviantart.com/art/Neil-the-Box-Tank-Engine-513691404

 

Or, save yourself modelling effort, by building this one-cylinder variant! http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/onecylinder/onecylinder.htm#neil

 

Also, do google 'Redruth and chacewater railway', because they had at least two, and there are some lovely photos on-line.

 

Kevin

Edited January 4, 2017 by Nearholmer

[EddieB]

For £40,000* in loose change, you can buy the red loco in Edwardian's post (presumably he took the photo where it is currently held) and make all the drawings you want from it...

 

*Shipping extra, of course!

[br2975]

The Iain Rice article on "Neilson Box Tanks" featured in Model Railways, June 1978 and includes 4mm scale outline drawings of three versions, including one of the Liskeard & Caradon locos before rebuilding. The article also contains a few perspective sketches.

.

The related 'Tregarrick Yard' layout upon which Iain ran the loco, and other oddities, featured in the following Model Railways issues (i) June 1979 (ii) January 1981 (iii) February 1982.

.

Another interesting article outlining the building of a larger scale model, with 7mm drawings of a 3' 3.1/2" gauge single cylinder  Neilson 0-4-0ST (box tank) featured in "Mr. Neilson's Donkey' again, Model Railways December 1981.

.

Brian R

[EddieB]

You're six hours 'behind the UK' ?

.

Is that a result of Brexit ?

No, they fell behind in 1776 and never caught up.

[bertiedog]

For four mm models those wheels might be possible from 16 spoked wheels with alternate spokes sawn out, but if a plastic centre, it would weaken them. Might pay to make one and have lost wax copies made for re-machining, or to assemble each wheel from parts and silver solder the lot before machining it. The wheels are a bit too distinctive to loose. Other than that a model looks very feasible, and the body would provide a lot of weight for traction .Often in the past the wheel blanks for specials cost only two schillings each blank, in the days prior to steel centres. The nickel made hard wearing P4 tyres as well. all 2s each, or 2/6d perhaps.

[davknigh]

For wheels check the Alan Gibson line. He (they) have 8 spoke Manning Wardle ref 4836 IW that looks quite close to the drawing.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[sir douglas]

some neilson tank pics ive collected over the years

 

"pinkie" of the GMA (canada)

 

East Cornwall mineral

 

Great Eastern Railway No 230 (LNER 7230)

 

GER 231

 

GER drawing

 

Redruth & chasewater "Miner"

 

R&CR "Smelter"

 

Neilson No 1367 of 1867

 

a PDF of a neilson box tank

Neilson tank.pdf

 

 

 

[br2975]

The Nielson "ogee" tank locomotives (as per G.E.R. 230/231 and East Cornwall Minerals Railway etc and shown above) also formed the basis of an interesting illustrated article, including scale drawings; again published in 'Model Railways' during the late 1970s early 1980s.

.

Brian R

Edited January 5, 2017 by br2975

[844fan]

Having checked, the drawing comes from this book http://westsomersetrailway.vticket.co.uk/article.php/199/the-brendon-hills-iron-mines-and-the-west-somerset-mineral-railway-book-by-m-h-jones-available-now

 

It is a super-lavish publication, with stacks of marvellous drawings, maps, and photos, including two very clear views of the box tank loco, as well as the drawing.

 

I also checked 'Chronicles of Boulton's Siding', but although he had at least one Neilson through his hands, there is no drawing, simply a reference to a detailed article about their tank engines in an ancient edition of The Locomotive, which I don't think is accessible on-line.

 

Or, you could work from this drawing http://thegermanengine.deviantart.com/art/Neil-the-Box-Tank-Engine-513691404

 

Or, save yourself modelling effort, by building this one-cylinder variant! http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/onecylinder/onecylinder.htm#neil

 

Also, do google 'Redruth and chacewater railway', because they had at least two, and there are some lovely photos on-line.

 

Kevin

How have I missed that drawing? I watch that artist over on DA and I'll need to look at that single cylinder engine. The first drawing you linked I have already but thank you for posting it for anyone who hasn't seen it. It shows just how small these little Box Tanks were. Though I recon they had more pulling power than they looked to have.

 

For £40,000* in loose change, you can buy the red loco in Edwardian's post (presumably he took the photo where it is currently held) and make all the drawings you want from it...

 

*Shipping extra, of course!

Oh if only I had that cash. I hope someone buys her and restores her though I know she was a Bath Gasworks loco and a interesting one too. Though my favorite of the Gasworks Tanks is No. 25 a little green saddle tank also a Neilson tank. Thinking about it it's no wonder such small engines worked at Bath. 

 

I mean the curves of the track there were tighter than any dockyard Ive ever seen. It's a wonder the standard 5 plank Truck could be pushed around in those quarters.

 

The Iain Rice article on "Neilson Box Tanks" featured in Model Railways, June 1978 and includes 4mm scale outline drawings of three versions, including one of the Liskeard & Caradon locos before rebuilding. The article also contains a few perspective sketches.

.

The related 'Tregarrick Yard' layout upon which Iain ran the loco, and other oddities, featured in the following Model Railways issues (i) June 1979 (ii) January 1981 (iii) February 1982.

.

Another interesting article outlining the building of a larger scale model, with 7mm drawings of a 3' 3.1/2" gauge single cylinder  Neilson 0-4-0ST (box tank) featured in "Mr. Neilson's Donkey' again, Model Railways December 1981.

.

Brian R

I really wish there was a online archive of the older Model Railways books. I also wish I could remember the name of the magazine I once found in Barnse and Noble from the UK on modeling railways. I remember it has a big article on the Gronks. A few line drawings of it and various livery it wore. I think it was back in 2000 to 2001 that book.

 

Back to the Neilsons I'll look into those issues. I'd like to see more indepth discussion on the box tanks.

 

No, they fell behind in 1776 and never caught up.

Hey steady on not all of us Yanks are behind you some of us have caught up to you make no mistake. It's funny that that way of speaking comes as naturally to me as any US dialect. I say Dagnabit and Crikey interchangeably and as a person who has a vow of no swearing (It's just a personal thing I prefer not to swear but I don't raise a fuss over anyone else doing so.) I use many differnt and often odd expletives in my daily speech.

 

I suppose growing up hearing Ringo narrate The Railway Series (at the time it wasn't that differnt. Not like today.) may have something to do with it. But yeah not all of us over here are behind you by two centuries. Maybe a couple decades but we are still closer than alot of other parts of our nation. I'm looking at you Bagdad Alabama towns like that that give the US the bad image it has also it nearly ended three good tv show hosts lives. Over a stupid joke someone painted on a car.

 

some neilson tank pics ive collected over the years

 

"pinkie" of the GMA (canada)

Neilson 1366 - 1867 GMA pinkie (2).jpg

 

Great Eastern Railway No 230 (LNER 7230)

Neilson 1903 GER 230 LNER 7230, 8081.jpg

 

GER 231

neilson GER 231.jpg

 

GER drawing

neilson GER.jpg

 

Redruth & chasewater "Miner"

Neilson redruth chasewater miner (1).jpg

 

R&CR "Smelter"

Neilson redruth chasewater smelter.jpg

 

Now thats a nice assortment of photos Doug. The "Miner" is a strong looking engine indeed. Much larger than the 0-4-0 and 0-4-2 engines like the R&CR Smelter. Also Pinkie ins a excellent look at a Neilson with mods needed to run over here in the US and Canada. Speaking of is there a name for that step plate she has instead of the "snowplow" Cowcatcher? I've seen it on a few engines over here and I can't say it looks like a cowcatcher of any sort. Definitely doesn't look suited to pushing a cow out of the way.

 

Also is it me or do the LNER engines here look like they have the same cab design as a certain Welsh tank engine that once ran slate traffic? I also like the Tramway mods on the one a certain little blue engines words just hang in my head "Everyone will laugh Sir. They'll say I look like a Tram." 

[alastairq]

 

 

Now thats a nice assortment of photos Doug. The "Miner" is a strong looking engine indeed. Much larger than the 0-4-0 and 0-4-2 engines like the R&CR Smelter. Also Pinkie ins a excellent look at a Neilson with mods needed to run over here in the US and Canada. Speaking of is there a name for that step plate she has instead of the "snowplow" Cowcatcher? I've seen it on a few engines over here and I can't say it looks like a cowcatcher of any sort. Definitely doesn't look suited to pushing a cow out of the way.

  It's a 'switching' or 'step' pilot......very much a USA thing.....used on locos used for switching, or shunting...they had foot boards [and grab rails] for crew members to ride when switching cars..

The pointed 'cow-catcher' pilot was for 'road locomotives'...sometimes a loco could have a combination of the two.

[pete_mcfarlane]

There's a rather nice Neilson Pug at the Chasewater railway, of the slightly later design that was also used by the Caledonian and North British, and modelled by Hornby. 

 

https://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/chasewater-railway-museums-first-new-acquisition-in-2012/

 

It would be quite an interesting exercise to trace the evolution of these locos from the early box tanks to the later designs. 

[Nearholmer]

It would.

 

I've driven past that line so many times. 2017 vow must be to actually visit, because it has some very interesting wee beasties.

 

K

[EddieB]

With obvious similarities to the Great Eastern "Coffee Pots", this delightful little Spanish broad gauge (1674mm) 0-4-0ST was originally  supplied by Neilson to FC Urbano Jerez (no. 3).  It became Andaluces 03 "J. MASAVEU" (amongst that company's class of five 0-4-0 tanks of mixed-parentage).  It was sold to industry prior to the absorption of the FC Andaluces into the nationalised system (RENFE), serving in the Tudela-Veguín Cement Works.  It is now preserved in a location near the port area of Gijon, Asturias.  When I visited, the director of the local railway museum was intending to commission a card model of the locomotive - I don't know whether anything came of it.

 

 

 

 

[PenrithBeacon]

It would.

 

I've driven past that line so many times. 2017 vow must be to actually visit, because it has some very interesting wee beasties.

 

K

Yes, much the same here too, always seems to slip from my mind when planning a visit to the north. Must try better during 2017.

[EddieB]

Ok, on the basis that engines sent overseas attract less interest than those that stayed home, here are some examples of four-coupled tank locomotives built by Neilson for the domestic market and now preserved (but not always still in the location where photographed).

 

First up, the Great Eastern "Coffee Pot" (LNER class Y5) no. 229 that was saved in Chepstow, restored and displayed for a time at the museum at North Woolwich.  (Neilson 2119/1876).

 

I think there is some confusion above, as the references to the gasworks locomotives should be the Gas Light and Coke Company, Beckton, or Beckton Gasworks - not Bath.  The square tank No. 1 (Neilson 4444/1892) spent some time tucked awy in a corner at Bressingham - wasn't it then part of the National Collection? - before going to its present private site and being offered for sale.

 

Also referred to above, no. 25 (Neilson 5087/1896) remains on show at Bressingham.

 

Finally, Neilson Reid 5907/1901 was part of the Bass, Ratcliffe and Gretton fleet (no. 9) at Burton-on-Trent, where it is also now on display at the Museum of Brewing.

 

Of course Neilson didn't just build small industrial locomotives.  At the time of their merger with Dübs and Sharp Stewart into the North British Locomotive Company, Neilson/Neilson Reid had constructed over six thousand locomotives (making them the largest constituent), but that a whole other story.  Sadly histories of these three major locomotive builders have yet to be written - a sizeable gap in British railway literature.

[sir douglas]

ive got some pics of larger neilsons but didnt post them because the title sort of implied that he was only looking for little tank engines

 

but here are some larger tanks

 

Neilson of 1890 in new zealand

 

Neilsonn 2203 0f 1876 for William Baird of Glasgow

 

2-8-4 tanks, Western Australian Gov railways K class but six of them were diverted to Africa to serve the Boer war and became Central South African railways C class

 

0-4-2 "Hesperus" on the West sussex / Hundred of Manhood and Selsey

Edited January 5, 2017 by sir douglas