Neilson Tank Engines Boxy and Not Boxy

[Andy Kirkham]

It's worth noting that one of the 3' 6" gauge 0-4-0STs on the East Cornwall Mineral Railway...

...was rebuilt as a standard gauge 0-4-2ST and ended up on the Selsey line, where it was also given the name Hesperus.

 

(Colonel Stephens evidently tried to ensure that any railway he had anything to do with had a locomotive named Hesperus)

[Nearholmer]

Which is good excuse for this https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/44654one

[sir douglas]

...was rebuilt as a standard gauge 0-4-2ST and ended up on the Selsey line, where it was also given the name Hesperus.

 

thats one heck of rebuild, they look nothing alike

[Edwardian]

The Kelton locomotive is essentially similar to the NBR G Class and the famous Caley Pug.  There are variations, of course, like the arrangement of boiler fittings and whether or not there is a lower slide bar.

 

[Nearholmer]

I don't think that is the Hesperus in question, I think the one below is.

 

Whether it is one of the several other Hesperides, I'm not sure.

 

EDIT: it was called CHICHESTER, not Hesperus, when on the HMST, according to a book about just consulted. But, their engines changed names and numbers a lot ......

 

K

Edited January 6, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Drawing, post conversion to standard gauge, but while still owned by PDSWJR.

[844fan]

  It's a 'switching' or 'step' pilot......very much a USA thing.....used on locos used for switching, or shunting...they had foot boards [and grab rails] for crew members to ride when switching cars..

The pointed 'cow-catcher' pilot was for 'road locomotives'...sometimes a loco could have a combination of the two.

Indeed it is quite a American design as I've never seen it elsewhere beyond the many nations in this hemisphere. Farthest sout I've seen it is Brazil. Thank you very much for that info now I  know what they're called.

 

With obvious similarities to the Great Eastern "Coffee Pots", this delightful little Spanish broad gauge (1674mm) 0-4-0ST was originally  supplied by Neilson to FC Urbano Jerez (no. 3).  It became Andaluces 03 "J. MASAVEU" (amongst that company's class of five 0-4-0 tanks of mixed-parentage).  It was sold to industry prior to the absorption of the FC Andaluces into the nationalised system (RENFE), serving in the Tudela-Veguín Cement Works.  It is now preserved in a location near the port area of Gijon, Asturias.  When I visited, the director of the local railway museum was intending to commission a card model of the locomotive - I don't know whether anything came of it.

 

I06031a.jpg

 

I06036a.jpg

Thats a smart little engine there. I love the color of blue they gave her. She certainly does have a family resemblance to the LNER engines and the "Ogee" tank. May I ask where does that name stem from? Ogee that is not this engines name. Heh.

 

 

I think there is some confusion above, as the references to the gasworks locomotives should be the Gas Light and Coke Company, Beckton, or Beckton Gasworks - not Bath.  The square tank No. 1 (Neilson 4444/1892) spent some time tucked awy in a corner at Bressingham - wasn't it then part of the National Collection? - before going to its present private site and being offered for sale.

B09025a.jpg

 

Also referred to above, no. 25 (Neilson 5087/1896) remains on show at Bressingham.

C09007a.jpg

 

Finally, Neilson Reid 5907/1901 was part of the Bass, Ratcliffe and Gretton fleet (no. 9) at Burton-on-Trent, where it is also now on display at the Museum of Brewing.

IG11027a.jpg

 

Of course Neilson didn't just build small industrial locomotives.  At the time of their merger with Dübs and Sharp Stewart into the North British Locomotive Company, Neilson/Neilson Reid had constructed over six thousand locomotives (making them the largest constituent), but that a whole other story.  Sadly histories of these three major locomotive builders have yet to be written - a sizeable gap in British railway literature.

Indeed your quite right. I was thinking of a documentary I saw on Industrial Railways and both Bath Gas Works and the Beckton plant were mentioned. I simply reversed what line was which. Sorry for the confusion. Very nice photos of the surviving engines now correct me if I'm wron but No. 25 had a brief life on the Bluebell didn't she?

 

I swear I remeber her having a connection to The Bluebell maybe on their website for the loco rosters for former members of the Bluebell. I may again have a mix up and merely remember a saddle tank of similar build being on there. I do know that if she was at the Bluebell it wasn't very long.

 

Also feel free to share any Neilsons you know of. Tank engine or not big or small. I could always use more information on the company.

 

ive got some pics of larger neilsons but didnt post them because the title sort of implied that he was only looking for little tank engines

 

but here are some larger tanks

 

Neilson of 1890 in new zealand

Neilson 1890 schnapper NZR.jpg

 

Neilsonn 2203 0f 1876 for William Baird of Glasgow

neilson 2203 - 1876 william baird.jpg

 

2-8-4 tanks, Western Australian Gov railways K class but six of them were diverted to Africa to serve the Boer war and became Central South African railways C class

Neilson WAGR K class - CSAR_Class_C.jpg

Neilson WAGR K class.jpg

Neilson WAGR K class - CSAR_Class_C (2).jpg

 

0-4-2 "Hesperus" on the West sussex / Hundred of Manhood and Selsey

neilson hesperus selsey.jpg

I am sorry I gave off that feeling Doug. While I was indeed looking primarily for the smaller tanks if you have pictures of larger Neilsons feel free to sho them. Not all Neilsons were tiny after all and it never hurts to show off some of the other fine locomotives that they built. 

[Nick Holliday]

Ogee is an architectural term for a shape which comprises two arcs that curve in opposite directions, a sort of elongated s shape. Often used to describe arches and mouldings, it was also a popular shape for cast iron guttering.

[844fan]

The Kelton locomotive is essentially similar to the NBR G Class and the famous Caley Pug.  There are variations, of course, like the arrangement of boiler fittings and whether or not there is a lower slide bar.

You know that class really makes me think of Percy. It's the Green honestly because Percy is a Avonside tank built off of GWR Trojan's design as Avonside would have built it and a added bunker.

 

 

Funnily enough that one of my favorite Dog breeds around is the Pug and I quite enjoy 0-4-0 Saddle Tanks. So I love both kinds of Pugs. Both can be quite loyal to the ones who take care of them.

I don't think that is the Hesperus in question, I think the one below is.

 

Whether it is one of the several other Hesperides, I'm not sure.

 

EDIT: it was called CHICHESTER, not Hesperus, when on the HMST, according to a book about just consulted. But, their engines changed names and numbers a lot ......

 

K

I guess the Colonel was a fan of Greek Myth if I remember rightly in Greek Mythology Hesperides were connected to the divine Golden Apples which could only be picked by a Immortal like a Titan or one of the Olympian Deitys. Granted it's been years since I studied Myth in depth so take that with a grain of salt.

 

Anyway back on topic of Locomotives that engine makes me think again of a small welsh engine in the fact that it looks like a rebuild of the NBR G Class to give it a little more stability. My welsh is atrocious so I will only be able to say It's name starts with T and it was mad by Fletcher and Jennings. 

 

The modification thought and Doug's post of the LNER Neilson that was fitted for Tramway work and had a new cab are making a Fiction Neilson Box Tank quite ironic seeing as he carried the Twin of the Welsh Tank home.

Ogee is an architectural term for a shape which comprises two arcs that curve in opposite directions, a sort of elongated s shape. Often used to describe arches and mouldings, it was also a popular shape for cast iron guttering.

Ah I see. Now I can see why the name was given to them thos tanks fit the bill of that shape. Also Die-cast construction it's a lost art.  

[sir douglas]

now that you mention it he did also have more than one Hecate as well the 0-8-0, one of th Ilfracombe goods tender engins and the 0-4-2 tank Severn was once called Hecate

[wagonman]

There were also Pyramus and Thisbe, from memory on the S&MR, but Hesperus was the evening star. Longfellow used the name for his doomed ship in the Wreck of the Hesperus' which no doubt got trotted out every time the loco(s) left the track...

[844fan]

now that you mention it he did also have more than one Hecate as well the 0-8-0, one of th Ilfracombe goods tender engins and the 0-4-2 tank Severn was once called Hecate

Well spotted Doug. Hecate the 0-8-0 is one of my favorite Tank designs from that region I don't know but I have plans to use her class as a pilot on my railway. I know she's a bit big to be a Pilot for the average yard but then again I also plan to have a "Big Bertha" for goods work as she was a excellent climber and had power to spare. I have a few areas on my line planed to have steep grades. Nothing as bad as the Lickey or even Gordon's Hill from the RWS but steep enough to warrant her use.

 

There were also Pyramus and Thisbe, from memory on the S&MR, but Hesperus was the evening star. Longfellow used the name for his doomed ship in the Wreck of the Hesperus' which no doubt got trotted out every time the loco(s) left the track...

My my he must of been a fan of Greek myth too. I could imagine workmen cursing the story when these engines lost their footing indeed.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Pyramus and Thisbe are best known via 'A Midsummer Night's dream', and the deliberately awful 'play-within-play' at the end. They're from Ovid and supposedly inspired by a Babylonian legend (it says on Wikipedia...).

 

What I find intriguing is the way Stephen's reused these names on multiple locos on different railways (unless he was simply reusing the same nameplates). 

[Andy Kirkham]

What I find intriguing is the way Stephen's reused these names on multiple locos on different railways (unless he was simply reusing the same nameplates). 

 

An example of this is "Ringing Rock" a Manning Wardle built for the Narberth Road and Maenclochog Railway ("Ringing Rock" being a translation of the name Maenclochog). It was absorbed by the GWR, much Swindonised and put to work on the china clay lines of Cornwall until sold to the Kent and East Sussex in 1914. Stephens renamed it (as "Hesperus" of course), and the nameplates were put into store - being retrieved in 1922 and applied to another Manning Wardle that Stephens purchased out of his own pocket and put to work on the Selsey Tramway.

[AlfaZagato]

On building a box-tank, I've been considering using the USDM Bachman "Bill" or "Ben" as a donor chassis, as the motion looks very similar to my eye, and I figured building a handful of boxes would be a simple exercise.   If you'd want an N-gauge version, N Drive Productions produces a similar chassis in N.  

[Killian keane]

High level do a kit for the ogee tank, they also do the GER version which has a cab, Peter Jones once did a 45mm live steam version based on an accucraft Ruby chassis and boiler, while describing the loco in his book, he recalls that the originals had axle pumps only, so when water had to be pumped into the boiler one would run the loco up to a set of buffers, oil the rails and let the loco run on its own accord, also of note here are the Redruth and Chasewater railway box tanks, which had those magnificent urn like fireboxes

Edited July 11, 2017 by Killian keane

[pete_mcfarlane]

A bit more information on the Redruth and Chacewater locos is in the October 14th 1904 issue of the Engineer, with a photo I've not seen before. 

 

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/The_Engineer_1904/10/14

 

More photos here:

http://cornishmemory.com/item/BRA_MI_072

http://cornishmemory.com/item/BRA_MI_062

http://cornishmemory.com/item/BRA_MI_053

[sir douglas]

the third engine of the redruth & chasewater "Spitfire"

Edited September 15, 2017 by sir douglas

[844fan]

the third engine of the redruth & chasewater "Spitfire"

Neilson 540 - redruth & chasewater spitfire.jpg

Quite a large box tank too compared to the old 0-4-2 "Neil" designs. (I hope you don't mind me nicknameing the old Box Tanks after the one the Rev. Awdry created.)

[sparks]

Miner and Smelter both started out as 'standard' 0-4-0 box tanks, but were quickly turned into 0-4-2s for stability. When the railway needed something more powerful, Neilson produced the 0-6-0 version Spitfire, and Miner was later rebuilt to match (with the addition of the distinctive haystack firebox). Smelter remained largely original to the end, and was relegated to spare and little used.

[pete_mcfarlane]

It's worth tracking down a copy of D Bradford-Barton's 'Redruth and Chasewater railway' for details of these locos (and masses of general information about mining in Cornwall in the 19th century). 

[844fan]

It's worth tracking down a copy of D Bradford-Barton's 'Redruth and Chasewater railway' for details of these locos (and masses of general information about mining in Cornwall in the 19th century). 

Why is it I can find these books all over Abebooks but not one of the Railway series collections for under a hundred? Joking aside looks like I have another book to look into Thanks very much.

[Hesperus]

I don't think that is the Hesperus in question, I think the one below is.

 

Whether it is one of the several other Hesperides, I'm not sure.

 

EDIT: it was called CHICHESTER, not Hesperus, when on the HMST, according to a book about just consulted. But, their engines changed names and numbers a lot ......

 

K

 

I've just managed to really confuse myself by finding an error or two in my favorite book after reading this post.

 

I have a copy of John Scott-Morgan's The Colonel Stephens Railways A Pictoral Survey that I have read many times.

 

The engine in Sir Douglas' post at the bottom of the first page is the first loco named Chichester which was apparently built as a standard gauge 0-6-0st in 1847 for the GWR by the Longbottom Railway Foundry.  After being sold out of service it found itself as the contractors loco during the building of the HM&ST and was taken into service.  It is shown during construction running as an 0-4-2st still with 6 driving wheels but with rear rods removed,  it was rebuilt with small trailing wheels soon after the line opened in 1897.

 

My knowledge of the GWR is somewhat lacking but would they have owned standard gauge loco's in 1847?

 

The book incorrectly captions a photo of the ex PDSWJR 0-4-2st as being the second Chichester when it in in fact Hesperus (you would think I would have spotted that before).

 

The real second Chichester was a Hudswell Clark 0-6-0st of 1903

 

 

The other loco's named Hesperus were an ex LSWR Ilfracombe goods 0-6-0 on the S&MR and a Sharp Stewart 2-4-0t on the WC&PR that started life on The Princes Risborough and Watlington Railway before being absorbed by the GWR.

[844fan]

I've just managed to really confuse myself by finding an error or two in my favorite book after reading this post.

 

I have a copy of John Scott-Morgan's The Colonel Stephens Railways A Pictoral Survey that I have read many times.

 

The engine in Sir Douglas' post at the bottom of the first page is the first loco named Chichester which was apparently built as a standard gauge 0-6-0st in 1847 for the GWR by the Longbottom Railway Foundry.  After being sold out of service it found itself as the contractors loco during the building of the HM&ST and was taken into service.  It is shown during construction running as an 0-4-2st still with 6 driving wheels but with rear rods removed,  it was rebuilt with small trailing wheels soon after the line opened in 1897.

 

My knowledge of the GWR is somewhat lacking but would they have owned standard gauge loco's in 1847?

 

The book incorrectly captions a photo of the ex PDSWJR 0-4-2st as being the second Chichester when it in in fact Hesperus (you would think I would have spotted that before).

 

The real second Chichester was a Hudswell Clark 0-6-0st of 1903

 

 

The other loco's named Hesperus were an ex LSWR Ilfracombe goods 0-6-0 on the S&MR and a Sharp Stewart 2-4-0t on the WC&PR that started life on The Princes Risborough and Watlington Railway before being absorbed by the GWR.

Well now this is quite interesting to hear. This actually give some credence to a concept I have had some debates about. The fact that the loco was modified to a 0-4-2 just by removing it's rear coupling rods and not automatically having them replaced reminds me of the liberties that were taken in a film recently and yet again I find myself dragging fiction into my topics. 

 

What I mean is the recent Thomas special has caused quite a stir in the fan community (Proud to be part of it too) but I'm not talking about the issue everyone else has as I'm perfectly fine with the whole controlling their springs and bouncing (It was in the Railway series with Duncan after all) but that is not my point to being made in this reply here. No my point regarding the new film involves the Decapod character introduced in it The character Hurrican. This loco was chosen for work in a steelworks due to how powerful a Decapod really would of been especially if it still had all it's cylinders and they remained in perfect sync but the writers who try to keep the series grounded in realism while still appealing to young fans notice something about this namely that a Decapod could never take the kind of curves that a steelworks would need.

 

Their solution they made it a 0-6-4 by removing part of the coupling rods between the third set and the fourth set. Due to the rigging they use though they left the rear wheels with coupling rods so they weren't connected to the drive rod but at the same time they followed the motions this is just a quirk of the CG but it makes sense in a way by making the engine a 0-6-4 and the way it worked was much like a radial axel for the rear wheels which would allow quite a bit of leeway for taking sharp bends.

 

Again I really am sorry to bring Thomas up in a serious discussion but that just reminded me of the way it was handled there. Though I'd have to say realisticly the rods remaing on the rear set in this instance makes sense too even if it's not a animation error or shortcut as if you were to turn the Decapod into a 0-6-4 without having new wheels made and onlt had the original drivers you would need to keep the wheels balanced and since it had wheel weights would be unbalanced otherwise.

 

Ok now let's get back on topic.  Hmm I think they may have had a few lines that were dual gauge by then as that was the plan for the bridge at... d'oh I think it was the saltash Richard Ince built a lovely replica of the one I'm thinking of and it's been a bit of a bottle neck due to it not being funded for dual gauge as the Mad Bridgeman himself said in Mark Found's Garden Railway. I'm no expert on the GWR either beyond knowing they were the most maverick in terms of design norms they always had to try to stand out and I'm not saying that is wrong quite the opposite otherwise we would never have had Hymaks or Westerns.

[sir douglas]

i recently came into possession of 7mm drawings of the GER and an industrial Nielson in a 1972 Model Railway News