3D-Modeling AL5

[stovepipe]

12 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

 

Yes (re buffer beams), but the second AL6 livery variant had rail blue buffer beams as did E3036 (and also E3039 seen at Bury from the Rail On Line photo in Evertranz's earlier post - reposted here

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1024248118/h120F7C24)

 

The first AL6 livery variant  (E310x and E316x) had red buffer beams from new and some of these had no yellow panel for a short time. 

 

Another fickr view of E3036 at Chester (also posted previously). Rail Blue for sure - and unless it's my imagination, the white doesn't look as crisp as on the AL1-6 - is it possibly rail grey? 

 

https://flic.kr/p/Q3piKD

 

Also previously posted but of interest in the corner of the photo is E3045 - another livery variant in rail blue, fye with a white cab roof? A rail blue syp AL3 in front of E3036 (E3028?). 

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1024248118/h375f605d

 

I had not noticed the rail blue buffer beams before. Yes a number of the AL6 were rail blue with red buffer beams E3101-3107 from Doncaster and E3161-3169 from VF but with yellow panels applied within 12 months.

 

I have another photo of E3045 at Longsight, from April 1967, with BFYE and white roof - so yes indeed another variation. Actually any new photos of Longsight from 1967 would prove to be very interesting at this point.

 

[45125]

20 hours ago, ChrisH-UK said:

 

I've not seen this question answered. It's my understanding (I have no proof, but have spoken to people with better knowledge) that the air blast breaker would only operate in response to a fault condition, that it would trigger the pantograph dropping device but normal lowering of the pan would not trigger it.

The air blast breaker opens and close when going through neutral sections of the overhead line, it will also open under certain fault conditions. All the unit is a set on contacts that when it opens uses a blast of air to blow the arc out, ie it lengthens the arc to a point were it cannot be sustained, all modern AC traction uses a vacuum breaker the contacts are in a vacuum chamber so that no arc should be drawn.

Opening and closing of the breaker is controlled the APC magnets at neutrals, a simplified AWS magnet is fitted at the neutral (a pair at each side of the neutral) the loco has an APC receiver fitted which detects the magnets and opens and closes the VCB/ABB. The driver on approach to a neutral should power off, helping to minimise the arc. Not powering off can cause a few problems.

[Evertrainz]

Thanks for the clarifications on ABBs/VCBs in operation guys. So it was a rail mounted magnet that would trigger the opening on the loco?

 

In the picture attached, was it the rightmost insulator stack that would rotate, thus disengaging the two-pronged contacts? 

 

[Evertrainz]

On the continued topic of liveries, would anyone remember what colors the AC electric cabs got in the early days? I know diesels were a cream/off-white and dark green for the bottom half, but what about the early electrics?

 

The pics attached suggests cream for the top, bluish-grey for the control desk, and white for the lower half of the cab interior walls?

 

AC Electric by Kerry Parker, on Flickr

 

Scroll to Class 73 interior - http://www.dawlishtrains.com/driving-cabs-electric-loco.html

Edited March 22, 2020 by Evertrainz

[Evertrainz]

Would AWS be fitted to these locos as-built? The 1960 Electrification Conference mentions ATC, however a stock image used of the Class 83 cab in 1960 shows an AWS sunflower indication. Were they to be used interchangeably at the time? 

 

I'm trying to figure out whether there was the typical green AWS relay box , horn and isolation switchgear on the cab bulkhead above the equip. room door. However I can't find any photos of them that show this stuff. 

 

Was the typical AWS equipment fitted to any diesels/electrics as-built in the 60s pilot scheme? For example would a Cl 40 have the AWS stuff on the cab bulkhead?

 

AL3 1960s cab R2

Edited August 3, 2020 by Evertrainz

[DY444]

On 20/03/2020 at 18:33, Evertrainz said:

Thanks for the clarifications on ABBs/VCBs in operation guys. So it was a rail mounted magnet that would trigger the opening on the loco?

 

 

Just to summarise:

At a neutral section there are APC permanent magnets mounted on the ends of the sleepers outside the running rails.  One outside each rail on both ends of the neutral section making 4 magnets in total.  An APC receiver is mounted on the inner end on one side of one of the locomotive bogies.   When the  receiver passed over an APC magnet it toggles the state of the circuit breaker so if it is closed it opens and vice versa.  Thus in normal operation the circuit breaker is closed as the locomotive approaches a neutral section; when the locomotive receiver passes over one of the first pair of APC magnets the circuit breaker is opened and then closed when it passes over one of the second pair.

[45125]

13 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

Just to summarise:

At a neutral section there are APC permanent magnets mounted on the ends of the sleepers outside the running rails.  One outside each rail on both ends of the neutral section making 4 magnets in total.  An APC receiver is mounted on the inner end on one side of one of the locomotive bogies.   When the  receiver passed over an APC magnet it toggles the state of the circuit breaker so if it is closed it opens and vice versa.  Thus in normal operation the circuit breaker is closed as the locomotive approaches a neutral section; when the locomotive receiver passes over one of the first pair of APC magnets the circuit breaker is opened and then closed when it passes over one of the second pair.

In a nutshell yes.

[45125]

On 01/04/2020 at 09:17, DY444 said:

 

Just to summarise:

At a neutral section there are APC permanent magnets mounted on the ends of the sleepers outside the running rails.  One outside each rail on both ends of the neutral section making 4 magnets in total.  An APC receiver is mounted on the inner end on one side of one of the locomotive bogies.   When the  receiver passed over an APC magnet it toggles the state of the circuit breaker so if it is closed it opens and vice versa.  Thus in normal operation the circuit breaker is closed as the locomotive approaches a neutral section; when the locomotive receiver passes over one of the first pair of APC magnets the circuit breaker is opened and then closed when it passes over one of the second pair.

 

On 01/04/2020 at 05:04, Evertrainz said:

Would AWS be fitted to these locos as-built? The 1960 Electrification Conference mentions ATC, however a stock image used of the Class 83 cab in 1960 shows an AWS sunflower indication. Were they to be used interchangeably at the time? 

 

I'm trying to figure out whether there was the typical green AWS relay box , horn and isolation switchgear on the cab bulkhead above the equip. room door. However I can't find any photos of them that show this stuff. 

 

Was the typical AWS equipment fitted to any diesels/electrics as-built in the 60s pilot scheme? For example would a Cl 40 have the AWS stuff on the cab bulkhead?

 

AL3 1960s cab R2  on Flickr

Depending on build date, many loco were built with either the wiring and various fittings installed but with odd items missing with the system isolated. Other locos had it fully installed. The green relay panel was generally in the engine room or fan house on EE  diesel locos with two cabs.

[Evertrainz]

In a top view elevation diagram of a dissected AL1 there is a box to the left of the driver’s seat between the wall labeled “ATC CO switch” that looks like it sits atop the heaters. 
 

I’m not sure what “CO” means but I do know that throughout the whole document AWS is referred as ATC. Does anyone know what it would be?

 

 

[298]

Cut Out? 

[Evertrainz]

18 minutes ago, 298 said:

Cut Out? 

Ah - I think you’re right. So the change end and isolation switch perhaps.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Evertrainz

[cheesysmith]

I have to say  the work you have done on this is outstanding.

 

Pity it could not be used in shapeways to made a model, especially if you did the 82-84 locos.

[Evertrainz]

14 minutes ago, cheesysmith said:

I have to say  the work you have done on this is outstanding.

 

Pity it could not be used in shapeways to made a model, especially if you did the 82-84 locos.

 

Hello, thank you for your kind words.

 

I have considered making available on Shapeways. But the problem is that the cost would not be worth it for most. Although it does make me wonder how much a plain bodyshell would cost in their cheapest material.. I might give it a try and see how much it runs for the 83 shell, as there's already an 85.

[Evertrainz]

Latest work. Does anyone know what might be on the secondman side of the cab on the early AC locos? I know there was another horn control lever, but what else? Fire alarm test?

 

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Evertrainz

[stovepipe]

Very nice Ron.

 

There was a website called BR Documents which had the BR driving manual for AC Electric Locos. It has a diagram of a class 86 driving desk, both sides. I guess the earlier classes followed a similar pattern.  I'll send a PM with them attached.

[keefer]

There might be annotated cab/desk photos in 'Modern Railways Pictorial Profile: Class 81-85' (pub. Ian Allan, 1983 or 84).

I don't know if there has been an equivalent MLI issue, in more recent years.

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by keefer

[stovepipe]

2 hours ago, keefer said:

There might be annotated cab/desk photos in 'Modern Railways Pictorial Profile: Class 81-85' (pub. Ian Allan, 1983 or 84).

I don't know if there has been an equivalent MLI issue, in more recent years.

 

 

There is, but only of the drivers side. 

[DY444]

On 19/04/2020 at 18:57, 298 said:

Cut Out? 

 

On 19/04/2020 at 19:15, Evertrainz said:

Ah - I think you’re right. So the change end and isolation switch perhaps.

 

A bit late in the day to answer but C/O is Change Over.

[Evertrainz]

On 30/06/2020 at 07:54, stovepipe said:

I'll send a PM with them attached.

 

Thanks for those Charles - good catch was the headcode winder digit changer which I would have completely omitted since I had no idea where it was. 

 

A couple things - what exactly did the "inspection lamp socket" do, and was it the bright orange button (if anyone remembers)? What purpose or practical use did the "vacuum chamber release push button" have?

 

Did the AC electrics not have the DSD floor pedal?

 

I believe that windscreen washer switches were only fitted later to the early class - I had been sent photos of the Class 83 driver and secondman side desks by a member of the AC Loco Group, and it looks very much like the Class 86 cabs, and nothing like the original English Electric stock photo featured below - which does not have the windscreen washer switch. Also a different-looking wiper speed control valve design. 

 

Regarding annotated cab photos there is this: 

http://www.dawlishtrains.com/driving-cabs-electric-loco.html

The AL3 cab on this site was thought to be an AL1 cab in some publications (Modern Locomotives Illustrated at least) but the giveaway is the 'EE' emblem on the power controller panel.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Evertrainz

[Evertrainz]

More work.

 

[ClikC]

That’s some incredible detail, are you working to drawings?

 

Regards

 

Matt

[Gibbo675]

On 17/03/2020 at 19:27, Evertrainz said:

I've been working away at the AC electrics and have got a few questions. How exactly would the air circuit breakers function? If a fault current was received, would the two-pronged spinning 'thing' move away from the contact? Most shots I see show it engaged with the contact even when the panto was down. 

 

What was the case with liveries towards the mid-late 60s? I have seen: Electric Blue, Electric Blue SYP, Rail Blue No YP, Rail Blue SYP, Electric Blue FYE (!). I'm assuming towards the 70s the painters didn't really care too much as blue was blue, which resulted in all sorts of odd combinations depending on the works. Here is a shot of an AL3 undeniably with the Rail Blue (as applied to all 86s early on) and panels. I've seen shots of a few other classes with this shade as well, I've attempted an AL5 in this livery below.

 

For those who know the specifics of AC loco technology  - what exactly would the electrical equipment for changeover 25kV to 6.25kV comprise? All I see on loco roofs in the early 60s, that is missing in later shots, is a large ceramic capacitor voltage divider. From looking at as good of a roof-view of early 60s AC electrics as possible, I am assuming that this is the only additional structure that was removed when the second pantograph was removed.

 

Another odd question - were the removable roof panels actually translucent? I saw a video of a walkthrough of the Class 87 equipment room and there was skylight from the translucent roof panels. This one might be tricky as I had read that at some point they were replaced with more robust aluminium panels.

 

AL5 Rail Blue SYP

Hi Evertrainz,

 

The AL3 shewn in the Flickr link is painted in the latter shade of Electric Blue, there were two shades of Electric Blue and here they are next to Rail Blue:

 

 

More information upon correct shades of Electric Blue and when they were applied can be found in a book by David Lawrence called, "British Rail Designed 1948-1997".

 

Class 86 locomotives were delivered in the later shade of Electric Blue which is why there is such a fuss over what shade of blue it actually was. It also explains why the AL3 matches the AL6.

 

Gibbo.

[stovepipe]

14 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

More information upon correct shades of Electric Blue and when they were applied can be found in a book by David Lawrence called, "British Rail Designed 1948-1997".

 

Class 86 locomotives were delivered in the later shade of Electric Blue which is why there is such a fuss over what shade of blue it actually was. It also explains why the AL3 matches the AL6.

 

Gibbo.

 

I have the David Lawrence book and quite clearly on page 155 he says the AL6 'began operation in the then new colour of Rail Blue'. I'm not sure why you are saying otherwise.

 

Also in the book Lawrence references the article in Modern Railways July 1965, where Brian Haresnape reported the application of Rail Blue.

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by stovepipe

[Gibbo675]

48 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

 

I have the David Lawrence book and quite clearly on page 155 he says the AL6 'began operation in the then new colour of Rail Blue'. I'm not sure why you are saying otherwise.

 

Also in the book Lawrence references the article in Modern Railways July 1965, where Brian Haresnape reported the application of Rail Blue.

 

Hi Stovepipe,

 

I say otherwise for I use my powers of observation and my powers of reason, nothing more. My explanation for what I posted is written below:

 

Firstly, I have observed in both colour, and black and white photographs that in early pictures of class 86's with SYP that there is a definite shade difference between the locomotive and the blue grey coaching stock. The only way that this could ever happen is if the paint is of a different shade of blue. There are LYP examples with white cab roofs and crests rather than arrows that are also a slight shade lighter than the Rail Blue coaching stock. This is not ever apparent in both colour and black and white photographs taken any time after the early 1970's which would suggest that after the early 1970's all electric locomotives were definitely painted in Rail Blue.

 

Look again at the colour swatch, two colours are similar in shade one is much lighter especially so if taken without reference:

 

 

Secondly, As for what Brian Haresnape stated, it may be that he saw a newly delivered class 86 in its darker shade of Electric Blue and having nothing painted n Rail Blue to compare it to made a simple mistake. He then wrote about what he perhaps thought he saw which is now been quoted as actuality rather than been thought about should any one use their powers of observation and reason as I do.

 

Thirdly, Just because that something is written on a book or linked via a website does not necessarily make anything true or otherwise.

 

Gibbo.

[stovepipe]

1 hour ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Stovepipe,

 

I say otherwise for I use my powers of observation and my powers of reason, nothing more. My explanation for what I posted is written below:

 

Firstly, I have observed in both colour, and black and white photographs that in early pictures of class 86's with SYP that there is a definite shade difference between the locomotive and the blue grey coaching stock. The only way that this could ever happen is if the paint is of a different shade of blue. There are LYP examples with white cab roofs and crests rather than arrows that are also a slight shade lighter than the Rail Blue coaching stock. This is not ever apparent in both colour and black and white photographs taken any time after the early 1970's which would suggest that after the early 1970's all electric locomotives were definitely painted in Rail Blue.

 

Look again at the colour swatch, two colours are similar in shade one is much lighter especially so if taken without reference:

 

 

Secondly, As for what Brian Haresnape stated, it may be that he saw a newly delivered class 86 in its darker shade of Electric Blue and having nothing painted n Rail Blue to compare it to made a simple mistake. He then wrote about what he perhaps thought he saw which is now been quoted as actuality rather than been thought about should any one use their powers of observation and reason as I do.

 

Thirdly, Just because that something is written on a book or linked via a website does not necessarily make anything true or otherwise.

 

Gibbo.

 

The problem I have is you quoted a book as saying something when it clearly does not. In fact it turns out it is just your opinion dressed up as substantiated fact, which is disingenious to say the least.

 

In 55 years, no-one has ever documented two versions of 'electric blue'. It is early Rail Blue and the later Rail Blue, as per your swatch, and as represented on the Heljan locos. If only Marsden hadn't kept printing that the AL6 were delivered in electric blue livery for the last 30 years then all this nonsense would go away.

 

I will take primary sources over your unscientific, uncalibrated 'research' every time, especially when you misquote a reference book. By all means repaint your AL6 in electric blue if you want, but please don't pretend you have any actual evidence for doing so.