3D-Modeling AL5

[Classsix T]

Here's a bit of an ignorant question: Did the pantograph automatically adjust to the height of the contact wire? A bit of a stretch (hah) considering the time period and technology available, but if not, how did the driver adjust the height exactly to the contact wire height? I see differing heights in pictures, and wonder how the driver can maneuver the pantograph to the specific height without being able to see the head.

 

Thanks

 

Ron

Lordy! Driver adjustable panto height! He reads the ammeter and if low jacks the pan up a bit...

I jest of course Ron, apologies.

 

As I understand it, the pan is set to contact the ole by a constant and measured air pressure, regardless of height thus maintaining a constant friction. An under/over pressure valve will detect if the pan head has either over reached (if no contact wire is present) or under reached (obstacles bring the pantograph too close to the locomotive). The valve is failsafe and will drop the pantograph if parameters aren't met, cutting off traction current, applying brakes etc.

 

Shortly, someone more knowledgeable on all things electric will pick the bones out of my (layman/non expert/I think I read it somewhere) explanation and give you the full SP.

 

C6T.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Classsix T

[Evertrainz]

It's about time to start work on the cab interior, are there any shots of the wall rear of the drivers' seats? If not, are there any cabs of other electrics that could pass as the interior of an 85?

 

The shots of the 81 on Dawlish Trains are very helpful no doubt, but one would like to know what the back wall of the cab looked like :-) .

[Evertrainz]

It's time to get back to this:

 

What was on the other side of the Class 86 (nobody will remember what an 85's was like) cab? Looks like a silverish surface, and a panel on the very right with horn control and another switch. Also in front of the secondman's seat, there looks to be a panel thst is behind the silver surface, with some switches. These sre not labeled in any of Colin Marsden's diagrams, could they be redundant to what's on the first driver's side?

[Dagworth]

It's time to get back to this:

 

What was on the other side of the Class 86 (nobody will remember what an 85's was like) cab? Looks like a silverish surface, and a panel on the very right with horn control and another switch. Also in front of the secondman's seat, there looks to be a panel thst is behind the silver surface, with some switches. These sre not labeled in any of Colin Marsden's diagrams, could they be redundant to what's on the first driver's side?

correct, there is a silver tray in an 86 cab and then a horn control and a DSD (Driver's safety device - deadman's handle in common parlance) holdover pushbutton.

Don't know if this is any help? Not an 86 (or 85...) I think it is the 84 at Barrow Hill

 

I have detailed photos of the entire roof of an 85 here though I don't have copyright so can't post them. Happy to help where I can

 

This may be of use though.

 

 

as well as this photo of the rooves of my model 81 and 85 (85 at the top)

 

The earlier photo from Birmingham New St of the two locos side by side is an 86 and an 81, not an 85. 85 has extra boxes, 81 only has the single long box

 

Also be careful with Stone Faively pans, they are not all the same, the 86 pan has an arrangement of extra tubes in the upper part which seems to have gained the name "the bicycle frame" that doesn't exist on the 85

 

Andi

[Evertrainz]

Hi Andi

 

Thanks for that explanation, but was the dead man's switch on the right panel of the cab, or on the panel in front of the secondman's seat? Also, at this stage, any cab photos, AL1-AL7 (Class 87?) help, especially if of the back wall, your 84 cab picture will come in handy :-) .

 

Thanks

 

Ron

Edited February 27, 2017 by Evertrainz

[Dagworth]

Hi Andi

 

Thanks for that explanation, but was the dead man's switch on the right panel of the cab, or on the panel in front of the secondman's seat? Also, at this stage, any cab photos, AL1-AL7 (Class 87?) help, especially if of the back wall, your 84 cab picture will come in handy :-) .

 

Thanks

 

Ron

I presume you've found this one?

 

https://photos.smugmug.com/Photography/Interiors/Electric-Locomotive-Interiors/Class-86-Interiors/i-jzfgsx8/0/M/86901-Interior-M.jpg

 

and 

 

http://www.gbrailway.co.uk/Photography/Interiors/Electric-Locomotive-Interiors/Class-86-Interiors/i-JhLpn3M/A

Edited February 27, 2017 by Dagworth

[stovepipe]

Hi Andi

 

Thanks for that explanation, but was the dead man's switch on the right panel of the cab, or on the panel in front of the secondman's seat? Also, at this stage, any cab photos, AL1-AL7 (Class 87?) help, especially if of the back wall, your 84 cab picture will come in handy :-) .

 

Thanks

 

Ron

 

This is one of the better ones I've seen, class 87 though.

 

87031 cab by Henry Cobbold, on Flickr

[Evertrainz]

Dagsworth and Stovepipe, thanks for those images and links, but I believe I've struck a goldmine of pictures, thanks to Dave Nexus's redirection. 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/transrail/albums/72157680059474565

 

Has any and every angle one would need, but I am not sure if this is applicable to the 85 cab. It's quite close, so I don't see any reason against using it as a reference. 

 

However, in this picture, there is a electrocution prevention and rescue poster. Was this applied at the build date for the original electrics, if anyone has even remote memory of it? I don't think I'd need it, but it would be a nice touch if it was common to all early AC electrics.

 

Ron

[darrel]

Windscreen wipers, I'm not familiar with class 85s but most locos and multiple units had separate wiper controls on drivers and secondmans sides. The only multiple units I'm aware of that only had one wiper control was the class 334s, even they have been modified now with a separate control on the secondmans side. This was after a few failures where the fault on the second-hand side wiper motor ment that the drivers side wiper stopped working as well the train had to be taken out of service

Photograph height, the pantograph is raised by air pressure. If the wires rise the photograph rises if the wires lower the pantograph lowers. The air pressure holds it against the wire.

[Evertrainz]

Windscreen wipers, I'm not familiar with class 85s but most locos and multiple units had separate wiper controls on drivers and secondmans sides. The only multiple units I'm aware of that only had one wiper control was the class 334s, even they have been modified now with a separate control on the secondmans side. This was after a few failures where the fault on the second-hand side wiper motor ment that the drivers side wiper stopped working as well the train had to be taken out of service

Photograph height, the pantograph is raised by air pressure. If the wires rise the photograph rises if the wires lower the pantograph lowers. The air pressure holds it against the wire.

 

How would air pressure know that contact was made, and where to stop? Was there wiring that stopped the pressure cylinder when a current was passed?

 

Also was the telephone/radio technology present in the earlier (pre-86) cabs? Seems more 80's-esque. Did they come with cabs as-built from the 5 builders, AL1-AL5?

[Dagworth]

How would air pressure know that contact was made, and where to stop? Was there wiring that stopped the pressure cylinder when a current was passed?

 

Also was the telephone/radio technology present in the earlier (pre-86) cabs? Seems more 80's-esque. Did they come with cabs as-built from the 5 builders, AL1-AL5?

The pan is pushed up by springs, not by air pressure. The air motor simply allows the lift springs to come into operation. The air motor operates against its own spring, if the air supply is cut off then the air motor will withdraw, pushing against the lift springs and forcing the pan down. (Brecknell Willis High-Speed pans are different, they are pushed up purely by air pressure and not spring)

 

There is an airway in the head of the pantograph too, inside the carbon contact strips. If this is breached by damage to the head of the pan then the air pressure to the air motor is lost and the pan will fall.

 

Further, on a loco there is an overheight valve which comes into play if the pan raises too high, this will also interupt the air to the motor, again causing the pan to lower. EMUs didn't have this so if the pan went too high it would unfold, breaking the back of the pan

 

 

In-cab telephones appeared in the 80s, they were not in the locos as built

 

Andi

Edited March 3, 2017 by Dagworth

[Evertrainz]

there is an overheight valve which comes into play if the pan raises too high, this will also interupt the air to the motor, again causing the pan to lower

 

That explains it :-) .

 

I still have to finish up some joints and pivots, but is more or less finished (minus valve).

[Evertrainz]

Latest render, things have been moving smoothly. Does anyone know whether earlier (1960-62) locomotives had the vacuum release valve that could be found in the 86 cab?

 

Regards,

 

Ron

[bescotbeast]

Latest render, things have been moving smoothly. Does anyone know whether earlier (1960-62) locomotives had the vacuum release valve that could be found in the 86 cab?

 

Regards,

 

Ron

Whats the plan for the completed model? will it be for Train Simulator?

[Evertrainz]

Whats the plan for the completed model? will it be for Train Simulator?

Yes, it will be a freeware model for Trainz, I'm not too fond of Train Simulator by DTG.

 

Not sure if it's a sin to post here asking help for models made for simulators but I will be honest in saying the communities dedicated to those games know a little over nothing about these details. Either that or they don't care to help, but here everyone easily picks out mistakes and technical errors in models for me to fix, which is what I like.

 

Regards

 

Ron

[stovepipe]

Latest render, things have been moving smoothly. Does anyone know whether earlier (1960-62) locomotives had the vacuum release valve that could be found in the 86 cab?

 

Regards,

 

Ron

 

There's a cab layout diagram in the 1960 Electrification Conference proceedings - Section 3, Paper 15, Fig 6. If you're talking about the Loco Brake Release (?), then it seems it was fitted to some types and not others, but it doesn't say which. The AL5s did have rheostatic brakes when first built with a changeover switch incorporated into the master controller, not sure what it looked like though.

 

The model is looking really good - to my eye the cab handrails would benefit from extending upwards a little, and the door kick plates could perhaps be deeper - but minor details really.

[Evertrainz]

... the cab handrails would benefit from extending upwards a little, and the door kick plates could perhaps be deeper ...

 

Thanks for pointing that out, they've been fixed. 

[Evertrainz]

The exterior is nearing completion. I'm yet to do the wiring that ran from the axle bearings to a fixed point on the loco. However, was this fixed point attached firmly to the loco, or could it move with a bit of give? The amount of slack in the bearing cable tells me it was not.

 

All that's left is:

 

- Air pressure cylinders for panto on roof

- Bearing cables

- Smaller box between bigger boxes on underframe

- Wiring running atop ceramic insulators on roof

 

If there is anything I'm omitting, please let me know.

 

Ron

[298]

The exterior is nearing completion. I'm yet to do the wiring that ran from the axle bearings to a fixed point on the loco. However, was this fixed point attached firmly to the loco, or could it move with a bit of give? The amount of slack in the bearing cable tells me it was not.

 

 

There is a Smiths Speedo drive that goes to the centre of the V bogie mount, and individual earthing straps from the axleboxes to the bogie frame. Both are flexible enough to take up and movement in the primary suspension (axle to bogie) and secondary (Speedo, bogie to body).

[Evertrainz]

There is a Smiths Speedo drive that goes to the centre of the V bogie mount, and individual earthing straps from the axleboxes to the bogie frame. Both are flexible enough to take up and movement in the primary suspension (axle to bogie) and secondary (Speedo, bogie to body).

Ah, so it's a connection to the speed gauge. I am not sure what you mean by "earthing strap", but I think that you mean straps that connected the bearing box to the protruding pieces on the frame.

 

Also, if anyone knows, what company (like 298 pointed out the Smith speedometer) manufactured the ammeters found in the cabs? The red, yellow, green colored ones were found in both 85 and 86, also earlier I think. A standard company and make for all the pressure gauges? In general, what companies manufactured what, that could be found standard in BR loco cabs?

[Dagworth]

You are missing the ETH cables and sockets from the buffer beams as well as air and vac pipes, and also the lamp brackets on top of the buffers.

 

Interesting photo here https://www.flickr.com/photos/the-evanses/8177227350 I'd not noticed the wind deflector on the cabside window previously

 

Andi

[Evertrainz]

You are missing the ETH cables and sockets from the buffer beams as well as air and vac pipes, and also the lamp brackets on top of the buffers.

 

Interesting photo here https://www.flickr.com/photos/the-evanses/8177227350 I'd not noticed the wind deflector on the cabside window previously

 

Andi

 

I am yet to do any headstock detail, but I haven't seen the deflectors in any other pictures so it could be a one-off.

[Evertrainz]

Does anyone know when ETH was implemented on the railway? I only see it on the AC electrics, and retrofitted on diesels in the 70's. Was it even used in the early 60's?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/transrail/31946760033/in/album-72157680059474565/

 

See at the link a detailed picture, and a socket opposite side. But where did these plug into on the early 60's MK1 stock?

Edited March 19, 2017 by Evertrainz

[Evertrainz]

Modeling is completed as far as I know. Attached is a render with all except for the cab interiors. Anything missing?

 

 

I can tackle the Rail Blue version but I will need to know external body differences from the as-built AL5's to the modified Class 85's. 

 

I am aware of these differences:

- Headstock horn (?) noise deflectors

- Single pantograph replaced with 3 air tanks

- Underframe cylinders (opposite side) replaced with some equipment with vents

- Rainstrip wiper housing in short pieces and stick out instead of inwards

- Introduction of box on roof (?)

- Headcode replaced with black dots, eventually two lights

 

[stovepipe]

Very nice.

 

Regarding ETH, the LMR were using dual-heated stock from at least 1961 on London - Birmingham - Liverpool - Manchester services, and these would increasingly have had AC electric loco haulage, which could only provide heat via ETH.

 

There was a period from c1967-1971 where locos were blue with a single pantograph and no roof air-tanks, but otherwise original condition, see https://flic.kr/p/q7F7hN

 

 

I can tackle the Rail Blue version but I will need to know external body differences from the as-built AL5's to the modified Class 85's. 

 

I am aware of these differences:

- Headstock horn (?) noise deflectors

- Single pantograph replaced with 3 air tanks

- Underframe cylinders (opposite side) replaced with some equipment with vents

- Rainstrip wiper housing in short pieces and stick out instead of inwards

- Introduction of box on roof (?)

- Headcode replaced with black dots, eventually two lights

 

In the later blue period - 1973-onwards

• The circular smoothing chokes were changed to the rectangular vented-types, probably at the same time as the rectifier was changed to silicon.
• The strip recesses above the windows were filled-in around 1970-71, after rail blue had started to be applied. The remaining areas for the wiper arms are still recesses.
• Hardly any (only 1 or 2) class 85s had domino headcodes, the usual pattern was to wind back to 0000 and then plate-over with marker lights from 1977-82.
• Raised steel BR arrow emblems

Strangely the locos never seemed to carry OHLW signs in blue, but the orange cantrail stripe was eventually added around 1980-81.