3D-Modeling AL5

[FPH 603]

On 31/01/2017 at 15:17, Evertrainz said:

I have attached the latest render of the 'roarer' Class 85. Looks like all the half-yellow-panel AC electrics had the second pantograph removed by the time. I have seen pictures of the full Electric Blue electrics missing the second pantograph.

What type of current did the second (later removed) pantograph serve, and how often was it used compared to the first head? Here's a bit of an ignorant question: Did the pantograph automatically adjust to the height of the contact wire? A bit of a stretch (hah) considering the time period and technology available, but if not, how did the driver adjust the height exactly to the contact wire height? I see differing heights in pictures, and wonder how the driver can maneuver the pantograph to the specific height without being able to see the head.

Thanks

Ron

  

On 15/12/2017 at 01:19, Evertrainz said:

I've been having a play but am not too sure about the little details of the body livery. I am happy with the way it looks.

 

But are there any other missed details of the livery? I think the headcode box beading should be Electric Blue, and the grab irons on the front silver. Anything else?

 

AL5 R1 , on Flickr

I do 3D modelling myself, but never have I been able to get that much detail into one model, in fact most of mine have been confined to being abandoned and/or cancelled due to distortion or issues with the model. The one I'm working on now may or may not be successful. It may turn out well, but there is bound to be something that stuffs up the entire thing, and this is probably my 5th attempt at the same damn train! Very well done sir, I'll be interested to see how this finishes.

[stovepipe]

On 15/12/2017 at 01:19, Evertrainz said:

I've been having a play but am not too sure about the little details of the body livery. I am happy with the way it looks.

 

But are there any other missed details of the livery? I think the headcode box beading should be Electric Blue, and the grab irons on the front silver. Anything else?

 

AL5 R1  on Flickr

 

Nice textures Ron.

 

I think the headcode beading and grab rails were body colour originally - though the grab rails often showed through silver after a while in use.

[Evertrainz]

  

I do 3D modelling myself, but never have I been able to get that much detail into one model, in fact most of mine have been confined to being abandoned and/or cancelled due to distortion or issues with the model. The one I'm working on now may or may not be successful. It may turn out well, but there is bound to be something that stuffs up the entire thing, and this is probably my 5th attempt at the same damn train! Very well done sir, I'll be interested to see how this finishes.

 

Thank you. Just keep at it, this was certainly not my first loco and I can assure you, my first attempts (Metrovick) were quite awful.

 

Nice textures Ron.

 

I think the headcode beading and grab rails were body colour originally - though the grab rails often showed through silver after a while in use.

 

Thanks. Another thing I've picked up the buffer heads, and their "necks" seemed to have been silver in the early days.

 

However, the side grab rails seem to have been silver suggested by this picture.

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1050452084

[GordonC]

I think its missing a slightly recessed area along the bodyside windows. I thought the 3D model was a Class 81 at first when that looked missing

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1050452084

[stovepipe]

Thanks. Another thing I've picked up the buffer heads, and their "necks" seemed to have been silver in the early days.

 

However, the side grab rails seem to have been silver suggested by this picture.

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1050452084

 

I'm not sure which picture you are referring to as the link is not specific, but in the same collection there is one of E3080 new in Doncaster Works in 1963, and although in black and white, it looks to me that the grabrails are painted the same colour as the body.

[Evertrainz]

I think its missing a slightly recessed area along the bodyside windows. I thought the 3D model was a Class 81 at first when that looked missing

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1050452084

 

There is a recess, but it just isn't as noticeable from that angle and lighting. Perhaps I could make it deeper.

 

I'm not sure which picture you are referring to as the link is not specific, but in the same collection there is one of E3080 new in Doncaster Works in 1963, and although in black and white, it looks to me that the grabrails are painted the same colour as the body.

 

Ah, I thought the site gave a link to the direct picture, my mistake!

 

But this picture shows E3057 in a relatively cleaner state with white/silver handrails on the sides and front. And the same goes for the Bachmann model, if it is anything to go by.

[stovepipe]

Yes it does, but it's clearly not brand new in service, and possibly may have been bulled up for a particular event or working. The loco would have been 6 months to a year old if the details are accurate. Here's a brand new in service colour photo.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/93456400@N04/15298391894/in/photolist-9zzgHi-9zzgrK-9zzgvp-gRRu3h-Tb9DAE-6Ya1Vj-22xzkM2-iaFPVC-eMGzCd-nttFW8-anMhnw-7H9uvr-2dSdup-9kaBZ8-aVtZoP-9WGmWx-Tf8DDG-bx9owp-9nWfeD-9VFujS-cVfM35-nvha2H-iLK3Z6-gRRsH3-hsP5FZ-q1wVDM-ZxwvKo-7agXTm-Kiyauq-piSfVu-DUgWCu-qisVhG-M5DWqE-GfRYN7-LyzEDP

[Evertrainz]

I see, I hadn’t noticed that on the pictrue before.

 

Perhaps what I’ll do is give one asset blue grabirons and another asset white/silver handrails.

[MGR Hooper!]

Nice texturing...whilst I can make detailed models, it's the high-res texturing and importing into the game that I am useless at. Been trying for ages to find someone to help me out.

[Evertrainz]

Returning to this thread with some pics and some questions to boot...

 

What was the standard width of the headcode blind? I am approximating 8 inches, but if anyone else has an actual set they've measured I'll gladly use the proper dimensions for it, also the height of the alphanumerics?

 

Were all the pantographs fitted to the early ACs the same design of Stone-Faiveley pantograph? Or did they have slightly differing parts/wires on the panto arm or assembly to suit the individual electric equipment of each? Since the only thing directly carried over would be power, I assume that BR had the builders use the exact same pantograph on each locomotive, to keep things in line with its "identical electric" policy.

 

And now for some WIP renders.

 

Ron

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Evertrainz

[stovepipe]

Ooh, AL3 and  AL1. Nice 

 

Alphanumeric characters were 12" high, well at least the model equivalent ones are.

[DY444]

On 22/10/2019 at 04:43, Evertrainz said:

Returning to this thread with some pics and some questions to boot...

 

What was the standard width of the headcode blind? I am approximating 8 inches, but if anyone else has an actual set they've measured I'll gladly use the proper dimensions for it, also the height of the alphanumerics?

 

Were all the pantographs fitted to the early ACs the same design of Stone-Faiveley pantograph? Or did they have slightly differing parts/wires on the panto arm or assembly to suit the individual electric equipment of each? Since the only thing directly carried over would be power, I assume that BR had the builders use the exact same pantograph on each locomotive, to keep things in line with its "identical electric" policy.

 

And now for some WIP renders.

 

Ron

 

 

Iirc one AL2 had one cross arm pan and one Stone-Faiveley pan from new.  All of the remaining AL1-AL5 had Stone-Faiveley pans from new.

Edited October 25, 2019 by DY444

[Evertrainz]

I've decided to re-do the pantographs to properly suit the 1960s as-built variant, and improve the detailing on them.

 

I've made my way from the base frame to the lower arm and the thrust rod, now the upper arms and pan head will need to be re-done... Seems like an odd arrangement using a series of rods in a parallelogram connected by a small spring to adjust for any bumps or jerks in the OHLE, shown in good detail in the beginning seconds here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33pbe-qGkY4 .

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Evertrainz

[Evertrainz]

I've been working away at the AC electrics and have got a few questions. How exactly would the air circuit breakers function? If a fault current was received, would the two-pronged spinning 'thing' move away from the contact? Most shots I see show it engaged with the contact even when the panto was down. 

 

What was the case with liveries towards the mid-late 60s? I have seen: Electric Blue, Electric Blue SYP, Rail Blue No YP, Rail Blue SYP, Electric Blue FYE (!). I'm assuming towards the 70s the painters didn't really care too much as blue was blue, which resulted in all sorts of odd combinations depending on the works. Here is a shot of an AL3 undeniably with the Rail Blue (as applied to all 86s early on) and panels. I've seen shots of a few other classes with this shade as well, I've attempted an AL5 in this livery below.

 

For those who know the specifics of AC loco technology  - what exactly would the electrical equipment for changeover 25kV to 6.25kV comprise? All I see on loco roofs in the early 60s, that is missing in later shots, is a large ceramic capacitor voltage divider. From looking at as good of a roof-view of early 60s AC electrics as possible, I am assuming that this is the only additional structure that was removed when the second pantograph was removed.

 

Another odd question - were the removable roof panels actually translucent? I saw a video of a walkthrough of the Class 87 equipment room and there was skylight from the translucent roof panels. This one might be tricky as I had read that at some point they were replaced with more robust aluminium panels.

 

AL5 Rail Blue SYP

Edited August 3, 2020 by Evertrainz

[MidlandRed]

These are fabulous 3D models. 

 

Regarding liveries, E3028 was in store at Bury, I'm pretty sure in electric blue with full yellow ends - it appears in several Flickr pictures as such - although the Flickr picture in the link shows a different shade i think it must be the colour rendering in that instance. 

 

I don't recall any of AL1 to AL5 being in anything but electric blue with the White cab tops/window surrounds and red buffer beams - subsequently with syp and then some with fye. Their next livery was all over rail blue with fyp (from overhead photos on Flickr possibly the main body roof remained white) - from 1967 onwards. Of the AL3, E3044 was repainted and used in rail exhibitions around the country in the late 60s.

 

The AL6s were all rail blue/white cab top/window surrounds and syp - the first few of both builds (E310x and E316x) appeared without yellow panels for a short period - the first few in this number series also had red buffer beams - the remainder rail blue buffer beams. As with the AL1-5, some had fye added - on repaint, all of AL1-6 had the white cab tops painted blue and lost the polished lion and wheel symbol  - replaced by a polished British Rail symbol - the buffer beams changed to black on repaint. 

Edited March 18, 2020 by MidlandRed

[Evertrainz]

I wasn't sure that electric blue full yellow ends was noted as an actual livery, although it does make sense. I have seen a Flickr shot of an AL3 donning this scheme, albeit the yellow ends were clean and the electric blue was very worn and tatty - if they were to have repainted the whole loco I assume it would have gotten Rail Blue.

 

However I am convinced that some AL4s and Al3s got the darker blue with yellow panels. In this shot the 84 seems to have a closer shade of blue to the full-on Rail blue of E3045 in front of it. And in the far back there is a true Electric blue roarer that has a lighter shade. Another shot shows off a similar livery on another 84.

 

These Flickr shots as well, noting importantly the lack of red headstocks, as well as on the earlier shot of E3038: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16236990@N08/2967531990/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/35513740@N04/31532305151/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dave58282/6512425327/

 

This is leading me to believe that the roarers (mostly 84s, at least one 83?) that were stored at Longsight got the same paint treatment as the AL6s of the time. 

 

 

[stovepipe]

E3027 and E3028 are good example to look for - that were both accident damaged by Feb 1965 and were repaired and rebuilt at VF with the work completed some time around July 1966. As we know they were stored at Bury from late 1968 but spent some time in store at Longsight beforehand, as this photo appears to show. The one behind appears to have had it's numbers removed.

 

E3027 Longsight August 1968 by Simon Barnes, on Flickr

 

I think this is probably electric blue, but the full yellow front changes the colour perception. Try obscuring the yellow to see what I mean.

 

E3028 was more severely damaged and likely to have emerged from repairs after E3027. This photo at Crewe in 1967 shows a much darker blue, even allowing for the colour balance being skewed, seeming to be the same as the AL6 behind.

 

027-23-Crewe-13-7-67-E3028 by david.l.quayle, on Flickr

 

Mid-1966 to Dec 1966 was the period when other loco classes received the rail blue SYP livery scheme, and this seems to be another example to my mind.

 

 

[stovepipe]

And here's another one of E3036 at Chester in 1967. It is most definitely Rail Blue!

 

 

[Evertrainz]

Interesting re the accidents and dates for those examples. Definitely do give context for the obscure liveries compared to the other class members. That’s also a nice shot of E3027 in what I would call a very clean Electric blue livery - finished with yellow ends. 
 

Here’s E3025 in a not-so-pretty condition, in the same mentioned livery. Any details about this one going in for accident repairs? 
 

 

[MidlandRed]

2 hours ago, stovepipe said:

And here's another one of E3036 at Chester in 1967. It is most definitely Rail Blue!

 

 

 

Interesting - I guess a giveaway on this and the picture of E3028 is the non-red buffer beams. However if you compare the blue in E3036 with the adjacent DMU in rail blue, they do look different. As an aside do we know why E3036 was at Chester station with an A4 in front? E3044 certainly got repainted around this time to full rail blue fye and exhibited at various stations around the network (eg Bristol) - however it also appears in lists people recorded in store at Bury sometimes, and it looks to be in one of the Flickr pictures - it wasn't there when I went, however. 

 

The picture of E3025 seems to indicate the buffer beam was repainted red as well as the added fye. 

[Evertrainz]

One Flickr comment reads that E3036 was stationed at Chester along with Scotsman & Sir Nigel Gresley from 2nd to 16th of July in 1967 - for the Chester Festival of Arts. 
 

An interesting combination of locos nonetheless.

[298]

12 hours ago, Evertrainz said:

However I am convinced that some AL4s and Al3s got the darker blue with yellow panels. In this shot the 84 seems to have a closer shade of blue to the full-on Rail blue of E3045 in front of it. And in the far back there is a true Electric blue roarer that has a lighter shade. Another shot shows off a similar livery on another 84.

 

This is leading me to believe that the roarers (mostly 84s, at least one 83?) that were stored at Longsight got the same paint treatment as the AL6s of the time. 

 

12 hours ago, Evertrainz said:

 

 

When we painted E3036 (84001) at Barrow Hill, sanding back the yellow warning panel revealed rail blue on the ends, almost like the whole loco had been painted blue and the yellow applied afterwards instead of over it's own primer. I've not previously seen any photos of it as above and assumed it had been always been in rail blue/full yellow ends/blue can roof when dragged around as a display loco when stored so the photo of it answers alot of questions.

[stovepipe]

Yes, I think that's the key to it - red buffer beams > electric blue, black buffer beams > rail blue.

 

Interesting to hear about E3036 in preservation.

 

9 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

 

.....However if you compare the blue in E3036 with the adjacent DMU in rail blue, they do look different.

 

There's no way those colours are significantly different, except only perhaps the DMU has weathered slightly more.

 

I think this photo does illustrate the difficulty of tying things down. It's 1960 they are all electric blue.

 

BR. English Electric Vulcan Foundry. Class "AL3" Bo-Bo Electric locomotive No. E3028. by Ron Bowyer, on Flickr

[ChrisH-UK]

On 17/03/2020 at 15:27, Evertrainz said:

I've been working away at the AC electrics and have got a few questions. How exactly would the air circuit breakers function? If a fault current was received, would the two-pronged spinning 'thing' move away from the contact? Most shots I see show it engaged with the contact even when the panto was down. 

 

I've not seen this question answered. It's my understanding (I have no proof, but have spoken to people with better knowledge) that the air blast breaker would only operate in response to a fault condition, that it would trigger the pantograph dropping device but normal lowering of the pan would not trigger it.

[MidlandRed]

13 hours ago, stovepipe said:

Yes, I think that's the key to it - red buffer beams > electric blue, black buffer beams > rail blue.

 

Interesting to hear about E3036 in preservation.

 

 

There's no way those colours are significantly different, except only perhaps the DMU has weathered slightly more.

 

I think this photo does illustrate the difficulty of tying things down. It's 1960 they are all electric blue.

 

BR. English Electric Vulcan Foundry. Class "AL3" Bo-Bo Electric locomotive No. E3028. by Ron Bowyer, on Flickr

 

Yes (re buffer beams), but the second AL6 livery variant had rail blue buffer beams as did E3036 (and also E3039 seen at Bury from the Rail On Line photo in Evertranz's earlier post - reposted here

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1024248118/h120F7C24)

 

The first AL6 livery variant  (E310x and E316x) had red buffer beams from new and some of these had no yellow panel for a short time. 

 

Another fickr view of E3036 at Chester (also posted previously). Rail Blue for sure - and unless it's my imagination, the white doesn't look as crisp as on the AL1-6 - is it possibly rail grey? 

 

https://flic.kr/p/Q3piKD

 

Also previously posted but of interest in the corner of the photo is E3045 - another livery variant in rail blue, fye with a white cab roof? A rail blue syp AL3 in front of E3036 (E3028?). 

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1024248118/h375f605d

Edited March 20, 2020 by MidlandRed