60009 Union of South Africa & 61994 The Great Marquess

[Richard E]

60009 is in the NRM at the moment with a piston, valves and motion stripped on the left hand side.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2017 by Richard E

[Heydon18]

A report in Steam Railway [462 p8] states that John Cameron, owner of A4 60009 Union of South Africa & K4 61994 The Great Marquess, will be withdrawing both from mainline and preserved railway operation, and building a museum to house them on his farm at Balbuthie, Fife, close to Kilconquhar.

 

60009 will have a final fling, being restored  to use by Riley & Son for a last spell of mainline operation from around Easter 2017 up to the end of the boiler certificate in July 2019, so there will be chances to ride behind and see this iconic locomotive for a couple of years yet. Mr Cameron bought the loco from BR service in 1966 and has run it on mainline metals for several spells since 1972. Before that it ran on a length of the Lochty Private Railway on a farm he then owned. The sight of 'Number 9' crossing the Forth Railway Bridge or departing King's Cross was truly  iconic.

 

There is no such last hurrah for the unique K4 2-6-0 The Great Marquess (LNER 3442). The loco has a crack in the inner firebox and its boiler certificate has lapsed. A further overhaul would cost into 6 figures and Mr Cameron (77) comments 'no-one is going to write out a seven-year ticket for me'. He bought the loco when it was out of use on the SVR with a broken crank axle and it ran back on the mainline from 2006 after he funded extensive repairs. The K4 class was built for service on the West Highland Railway but were displaced in the late 1950s.

 

Mr Cameron has invested huge amounts of money in restoring and operating these locomotives, delighting countless people over the past 50 years, for which he deserves much thanks. He is of course entitled to do what he feels best with the locos at this time in his life. Many of us will be sorry to see them go, but at least they will stay in Scotland where they belong, rather than being sold down South.

 

Possibly an alternative option would have been to create a new building to house them for public view at the Scottish Railway Museum at Bo'ness, just across the Forth; or at the Caledonian Railway at Bridge of Dun, close to the ECML; or in Fife at the Kingdom of Fife RPS down the road at Leven? Just a thought.

 

Dava

 

I think that this is a very selfish act by Mr Cameron , why doesn't he sell Union of South Africa to someone like the National Railway Museum? since Mallard ( as I understand it correct me if I'm wrong), can no longer grace the tracks and is permanently In static display , they surely have connections with other organisations who could organise rail tours with the proceeds going toward the locomotive's upkeep .  As to whether or not Mr Cameron "owns" these locomotives , Wasn't it Pete Waterman on "owning" the Flying Scotsman who said "were not owners of these locomotives , merely custodians of them ".  It IS a selfish act depriving further generations of our English heritage , there are always ways , doubtless we have all seen the documentary following the North Yorkshire Moors railway and their difficulties , but they have turned things around and visitors still flock to their railway .  I'm sure that Heritage railways such as this in the future will be able to pull resources and have locomotives from other heritage railways making guest appearances. If all locomotive owners felt like this there would be no locomotives at all running the lines Flying Scotsman would never have returned to the rails, and Tornado project would never have got off the ground neither would the P2 project because things like this generate cynicism among prospective backers. You see the even bigger picture of this is the effect it will have to the rest of the heritage community , when they sit around the board meeting table with potential backers , they will see comments that Mr Cameron has made about the up keep of these locos and it could put them off endangering the future of other Heritage railways.  We as a Enthusiast community need to keep as many of these fantastic Locomotives "alive" to be proud of them .  I sincerely hope that someone comes forward and makes Mr Cameron an offer for these locomotives , and he sees sense and accepts , therefore surely the selling to an  organisation that can keep Union of South Africa running while it still is in boiler certificate, and then run it on rail tours to finance the future of not only this fantastic engine but ensure that other locomotives do not suffer a similar fate !

[Dava]

" It IS a selfish act depriving further generations of our English heritage"

 

The K4 class was built to run on the West Highland line and always run in Scotland. John Cameron bought 60009 following its service on the Glasgow-Aberdeen expresses in the 1960s. He wants to preserve them in Scotland and has every right to do so, even if people disagree with this.

 

Jeremy Hosking has just stuck 'Bittern' in an old toy train factory in Margate, that's in England....

 

Dava

Edited June 23, 2018 by Dava

[cal.n]

I think that this is a very selfish act by Mr Cameron , why doesn't he sell Union of South Africa to someone like the National Railway Museum? since Mallard ( as I understand it correct me if I'm wrong), can no longer grace the tracks and is permanently In static display , they surely have connections with other organisations who could organise rail tours with the proceeds going toward the locomotive's upkeep .  As to whether or not Mr Cameron "owns" these locomotives , Wasn't it Pete Waterman on "owning" the Flying Scotsman who said "were not owners of these locomotives , merely custodians of them ".  It IS a selfish act depriving further generations of our English heritage , there are always ways , doubtless we have all seen the documentary following the North Yorkshire Moors railway and their difficulties , but they have turned things around and visitors still flock to their railway .  I'm sure that Heritage railways such as this in the future will be able to pull resources and have locomotives from other heritage railways making guest appearances. If all locomotive owners felt like this there would be no locomotives at all running the lines Flying Scotsman would never have returned to the rails, and Tornado project would never have got off the ground neither would the P2 project because things like this generate cynicism among prospective backers. You see the even bigger picture of this is the effect it will have to the rest of the heritage community , when they sit around the board meeting table with potential backers , they will see comments that Mr Cameron has made about the up keep of these locos and it could put them off endangering the future of other Heritage railways.  We as a Enthusiast community need to keep as many of these fantastic Locomotives "alive" to be proud of them .  I sincerely hope that someone comes forward and makes Mr Cameron an offer for these locomotives , and he sees sense and accepts , therefore surely the selling to an  organisation that can keep Union of South Africa running while it still is in boiler certificate, and then run it on rail tours to finance the future of not only this fantastic engine but ensure that other locomotives do not suffer a similar fate !

You can’t just ‘sell a loco’ to the NRM, it would be donated and why should he do that? He is putting the pair in a museum like the NRM would. Mr Cameron can do with his possessions what he pleases, he has poured money into both locos for years and we should thank him for the services to rail preservation and keeping these two fine locos on the mainline for so long. You make it sound as if he is turning them into scrap. The NRM doesn’t operate mainline locos either, Riley’s are the custodians of Scotsman and do everything an owner would (organise her tours, provide maintenance, provide footplate inspectors and coordinating activities).

 

It was reported in Steam Railway that Ian Riley made an offer for number 9 and was rejected.

[Pete the Elaner]

I think that this is a very selfish act by Mr Cameron , why doesn't he sell Union of South Africa to someone like the National Railway Museum? since Mallard ( as I understand it correct me if I'm wrong), can no longer grace the tracks and is permanently In static display , they surely have connections with other organisations who could organise rail tours with the proceeds going toward the locomotive's upkeep .  As to whether or not Mr Cameron "owns" these locomotives , Wasn't it Pete Waterman on "owning" the Flying Scotsman who said "were not owners of these locomotives , merely custodians of them ".  It IS a selfish act depriving further generations of our English heritage , there are always ways , doubtless we have all seen the documentary following the North Yorkshire Moors railway and their difficulties , but they have turned things around and visitors still flock to their railway .  I'm sure that Heritage railways such as this in the future will be able to pull resources and have locomotives from other heritage railways making guest appearances. If all locomotive owners felt like this there would be no locomotives at all running the lines Flying Scotsman would never have returned to the rails, and Tornado project would never have got off the ground neither would the P2 project because things like this generate cynicism among prospective backers. You see the even bigger picture of this is the effect it will have to the rest of the heritage community , when they sit around the board meeting table with potential backers , they will see comments that Mr Cameron has made about the up keep of these locos and it could put them off endangering the future of other Heritage railways.  We as a Enthusiast community need to keep as many of these fantastic Locomotives "alive" to be proud of them .  I sincerely hope that someone comes forward and makes Mr Cameron an offer for these locomotives , and he sees sense and accepts , therefore surely the selling to an  organisation that can keep Union of South Africa running while it still is in boiler certificate, and then run it on rail tours to finance the future of not only this fantastic engine but ensure that other locomotives do not suffer a similar fate !

I disagree with that. He owns it so why should he not keep it in a private collection?

You hope someone makes an offer for the locomotives? If you really mean that, then perhaps you could buy them yourself, or form a consortium to do so?

 

Why can't Mallard be overhauled? NRM don't want to because they want to keep it on display. 3 other A4s have (or recently have had) a mainline certificate. It is not like there are no other A4s in service anyway. Bittern & Gresley are either running or being rebuilt.

When Hamilton was streamlined, NRM mentioned possibly running it in that form, but it looks like this may never happen. Birmingham city council have always wanted to keep their city's namesake loco in a museum since withdrawal, but people have given up complaining about that, so what is different about Union?

[t-b-g]

I am not sure that the NRM and the "National Collection" has ever had any interest in having two locos of the same class.

 

I would prefer to see any loco out running rather than stuffed and mounted but in this case, I think I will just be grateful to the owner for saving them and to accept that he has a free choice as to what he does with them while he owns them. He must have put huge amounts of money into keeping them running over the years and has earned the right to enjoy owning them as static exhibits in a museum.

 

At least we have been able to see them running many times over a long period, which is more than can be said of many preserved locos. 

[Zomboid]

Ultimately nothing is forever. If they're in generally good condition then it's likely that eventually someone will have this bright idea of returning one or both to operation.

 

In the meantime, they're private property and the owner can do what he likes with them. At the very least they're safe.

[Heydon18]

I am not sure that the NRM and the "National Collection" has ever had any interest in having two locos of the same class.

 

I would prefer to see any loco out running rather than stuffed and mounted but in this case, I think I will just be grateful to the owner for saving them and to accept that he has a free choice as to what he does with them while he owns them. He must have put huge amounts of money into keeping them running over the years and has earned the right to enjoy owning them as static exhibits in a museum.

Mr CAmeron 

At least we have been able to see them running many times over a long period, which is more than can be said of many preserved locos. 

 

Yes be thankful for the Owner for keeper this loco running , but to allow it to be stuffed in an engine shed is a crime and I don't care what anyone says that "he's free to do as he pleases " anyone remember the state they found Flying Scotsman in before it was brought back to the tracks ? a neglected state .  It s a pompous attitude he has for the "Cameron Legacy" a better legacy would be to sell it on so that it can be better preserved not rusting in a museum or a private monument to "his legacy " which quite frankly is narcissistic to say the least . Pete waterman whose LNWR workshop helped to out fit Union of South Africa and went under a massive overhaul in 2010 didn't feel he "owned " Flying Scotsman . If  Mr Cameron "does as he pleases " then this loco is doomed to be in a static state for years and to rust . I hope for one that Mr Cameron sees sense before its too late and be allowed for this engine to rust away in museum 

[MarkC]

Sorry, but why should other people dictate what someone does with their own property? There's a name for that sort of thing which eludes me at present... 

 

Thanks to Mr Cameron, we have had the pleasure of seeing and riding behind Number 9 for many years; indeed I have had two trips down the ECML to London behind her, plus a York-Low Fell-Carlisle- Hellifield-York. Marvellous.

 

I've also experienced the K4, on one of RTC's Wansbeck trips. Wonderful.

 

However, ultimately, they're Mr Cameron's property, to do with as he sees fit. We owe him and his support crews a great deal of thanks, and I for one wish him a long and happy retirement.

[Marshall5]

Yes be thankful for the Owner for keeper this loco running , but to allow it to be stuffed in an engine shed is a crime and I don't care what anyone says that "he's free to do as he pleases " anyone remember the state they found Flying Scotsman in before it was brought back to the tracks ? a neglected state .  It s a pompous attitude he has for the "Cameron Legacy" a better legacy would be to sell it on so that it can be better preserved not rusting in a museum or a private monument to "his legacy " which quite frankly is narcissistic to say the least . Pete waterman whose LNWR workshop helped to out fit Union of South Africa and went under a massive overhaul in 2010 didn't feel he "owned " Flying Scotsman . If  Mr Cameron "does as he pleases " then this loco is doomed to be in a static state for years and to rust . I hope for one that Mr Cameron sees sense before its too late and be allowed for this engine to rust away in museum 

What makes you think that the loco is going "to rust away in (a) museum" any more than the exhibits in the NRM?  Apart from being badly written your post suggests that you have some sort of personal grudge against Mr.Cameron who has done so much for the preservation movement.  Can you honestly say that you've done as much?

Ray.

[Heydon18]

What makes you think that the loco is going "to rust away in (a) museum" any more than the exhibits in the NRM?  Apart from being badly written your post suggests that you have some sort of personal grudge against Mr.Cameron who has done so much for the preservation movement.  Can you honestly say that you've done as much?

Ray.

 

I have no personal grudge and didn't realise there was Grammar police on board here 

[Heydon18]

Besides peple can cricitise me all they want but the fact remains ....years later the Union of South africa could very likely be forgotten about in a railway she somewhere ...i have no personal grudge , and yes i havent contributed like Mr Cameron has have you ? i think not also!

I do have a problem with what he is doing with "his " locomotive 

 

[Dava]

Besides peple can cricitise me all they want but the fact remains ....years later the Union of South africa could very likely be forgotten about in a railway she somewhere ...i have no personal grudge , and yes i havent contributed like Mr Cameron has have you ? i think not also!

I do have a problem with what he is doing with "his " locomotive

 

If John Cameron had not bought 60009 out of BR service in 197 it would have been scrapped with the rest of the class. The loco will be conserved for the foreseeable future and on public view when the museum is built.

 

So why do not have a problem with Jeremy Hosking storing 'Bittern' and the large collection of locos he amassed, out of view in the old Hornby factory in Margate?

 

Dava

[Heydon18]

If John Cameron had not bought 60009 out of BR service in 197 it would have been scrapped with the rest of the class. The loco will be conserved for the foreseeable future and on public view when the museum is built.

So why do not have a problem with Jeremy Hosking storing 'Bittern' and the large collection of locos he amassed, out of view in the old Hornby factory in Margate?

Dava

If John Cameron had not bought 60009 out of BR service in 197 it would have been scrapped with the rest of the class. The loco will be conserved for the foreseeable future and on public view when the museum is built.

So why do not have a problem with Jeremy Hosking storing 'Bittern' and the large collection of locos he amassed, out of view in the old Hornby factory in Margate?

Dava

I have a problem with anyone who thinks that these lcocs should be treated in this fashion regardless of how much time has been spent and money as though that gives them the right , they are not owners merely custodians of these locos nd people can have a problem with me saying that until their blue in the face . If mr Cameron cannot maintain theses locos then there should be a clause that prevents them being returned forever into static show and therefore deteriorate into such a condition that makes it impossible to return to steam in the future

[Steamport Southport]

" It IS a selfish act depriving further generations of our English heritage"

 

The K4 class was built to run on the West Highland line and always run in Scotland. John Cameron bought 60009 following its service on the Glasgow-Aberdeen expresses in the 1960s. He wants to preserve them in Scotland and has every right to do so, even if people disagree with this.

 

Jeremy Hosking has just stuck 'Bittern' in an old toy train factory in Margate, that's in England....

 

Dava

 

Both are more English than Scottish. Unless Doncaster and Darlington have suddenly moved North.....

 

 

 

 

Jason

[dibber25]

Besides peple can cricitise me all they want but the fact remains ....years later the Union of South africa could very likely be forgotten about in a railway she somewhere ...i have no personal grudge , and yes i havent contributed like Mr Cameron has have you ? i think not also!

I do have a problem with what he is doing with "his " locomotive 

 

No.9 is John Cameron's locomotive - the 'his' doesn't need quotes around it as if to suggest that it's somehow not his to do as he pleases with it. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and suspect that you are young, inexperienced and haven't done your research. John Cameron was a senior figure on BR Scottish Region at the end of steam. He bought two locomotives that would otherwise have gone to the breakers yard and he has kept them operational for benefit of all of us for over 50 years. The locomotives are now around 80 years old and with each round of operation locomotives of that age require more extensive replacement of parts and become ever more costly to repair. The time comes when one has to say enough is enough, as the NRM has done with numerous of its locomotives including Green Arrow, City of Truro and Mallard. 

The fact that you suggest selling No. 9 to the NRM shows that you have precious little understanding of the subject you are writing about. The NRM does not buy locomotives or any exhibits, they are donated. And the NRM is so strapped for cash these days that it is not likely to accept a locomotive even as a gift. In the past couple of years it has given away three locomotives - the NSR tank, LSWR No. 563 and GWR No. 2818. Frankly, it's more likely to give Mr. Cameron a locomotive than to accept one from him.

Finally, I'm sure you would not wish to have anyone dictating what you do with your own property and you should afford others the same courtesy.

Before you rant against one of railway preservation's true gentleman enthusiasts, do your homework! (CJL)

Edited June 23, 2018 by dibber25

[Steamport Southport]

Sorry, but why should other people dictate what someone does with their own property? There's a name for that sort of thing which eludes me at present... 

 

Thanks to Mr Cameron, we have had the pleasure of seeing and riding behind Number 9 for many years; indeed I have had two trips down the ECML to London behind her, plus a York-Low Fell-Carlisle- Hellifield-York. Marvellous.

 

I've also experienced the K4, on one of RTC's Wansbeck trips. Wonderful.

 

However, ultimately, they're Mr Cameron's property, to do with as he sees fit. We owe him and his support crews a great deal of thanks, and I for one wish him a long and happy retirement.

 

I slightly disagree with this.

 

Just playing Devils Advocate here, not relevant to this case as the locomotives aren't under threat.

 

 

If an owner suddenly decides to scrap an historic locomotive should he be allowed to do so because it's his?

 

Imagine the uproar if someone decided to knock down an historic building or set fire to a painting by Gainsborough or Turner. Yet if someone owns a locomotive then they can do whatever they want with it? 

 

 

I really think that maybe we should have a law protecting historical locomotives and rolling stock from wilful damage/neglect like we have with listed buildings. Even items in the NRM aren't exempt from abuse as the saga of the T3 would testify.

 

 

Jason

[dibber25]

I slightly disagree with this.

 

Just playing Devils Advocate here, not relevant to this case as the locomotives aren't under threat.

 

 

If an owner suddenly decides to scrap an historic locomotive should he be allowed to do so because it's his?

 

Imagine the uproar if someone decided to knock down an historic building or set fire to a painting by Gainsborough or Turner. Yet if someone owns a locomotive then they can do whatever they want with it? 

 

 

I really think that maybe we should have a law protecting historical locomotives and rolling stock from wilful damage/neglect like we have with listed buildings. Even items in the NRM aren't exempt from abuse as the saga of the T3 would testify.

 

 

Jason

 

Your idea would open a real can of worms. Where would you stop? Mr. Cameron is not wilfully damaging or neglecting his locomotives. And, as for the suggestion that the law protects historic buildings, that suggestion is laughable. Take a look, for instance, at the Mechanics Institute in Swindon. It is Grade 2* listed - which means it is very special. Successive owners have neglected it because they want it to fall down so that the area can be redeveloped. I imagine that if I actually owned a Gainsborough or a Turner and chose to set fire to it, no one would stop me - provided I didn't then claim for it on the insurance! If someone has the ownership of something it must be their right to do with it as they wish. Once you start interfering with that right, where do you stop? If I own a Gibson guitar and do a 1960s retro act and smash it up on stage, should I be prosecuted? Right at this moment, a diesel railbus that I once owned is facing the scrap man (see an adjacent thread). I don't like it but I can't stop it because it is no longer mine and the present owners have every right to set their own priorities and dispose of it if they wish.(CJL)

Edited June 23, 2018 by dibber25

[Steamport Southport]

As I said I was playing Devils Advocate and it wasn't aimed at Mr Cameron.

 

It just really pees me off when people declare that somebody has a right to do whatever they want to historically important things because they own it, without repercussions.

 

 

 

But didn't Flying Scotsman have an export ban placed on it as it was deemed to be of national importance?

 

 

 

Jason

[GordonC]

But who determines what is right or wrong for the future or something?

 

There must be plenty historical things being left to rot in sidings outside and how many have been found in fields being used as chicken huts? No one has any right to say how someone else spends their money to look after something

 

As I understand it he was intending building undercover storage. In terms of preservation that sounds like it's work pretty well.

 

I'm sure anyone that cares so much and thinks he's doing the wrong thing could come up with the money to buy them and do differently

[Zomboid]

I slightly disagree with this.

 

Just playing Devils Advocate here, not relevant to this case as the locomotives aren't under threat.

 

 

If an owner suddenly decides to scrap an historic locomotive should he be allowed to do so because it's his?

 

Imagine the uproar if someone decided to knock down an historic building or set fire to a painting by Gainsborough or Turner. Yet if someone owns a locomotive then they can do whatever they want with it?

 

 

I really think that maybe we should have a law protecting historical locomotives and rolling stock from wilful damage/neglect like we have with listed buildings. Even items in the NRM aren't exempt from abuse as the saga of the T3 would testify.

 

 

Jason

The owner would be permitted to sell his lump of steel & other metals to a scrapyard if he so wished. In reality he'd probably get a better deal from selling to a preservationist, or the scrapyard would get a better deal from reselling to preservationists than from going to the effort of cutting it up (as Mr Woodham found).

 

Occasionally there is the possibility of a Turner or similar being sold out of the country, and that is usually prevented somehow, but there is no law saying that privately owned historic artefacts must be on public display.

 

The really important historic railway artefacts are in the NRM collection. Everything else is just part of the private tourism and entertainment industry.

[russ p]

Cameron saved 60009 himself and its always been ' his' locomotive but he bought the K4 a lot later.

Whilst at the end of the day both are his property and should he feel the need there is nothing stopping him ramming them into each other and watching their boilers explore from a safe distance!

BUT its a real shame to see the unique K4 been stuffed and mounted, I would like him to change his mind on that.

Also two locos and a few farm machines do not really make a museum so at some point in the future after Mr Cameron has passed away the museum may become a financial burden to his family and its contents may come up for sale

[rab]

I have a problem with anyone who thinks that these lcocs should be treated in this fashion regardless of how much time has been spent and money as though that gives them the right , they are not owners merely custodians of these locos nd people can have a problem with me saying that until their blue in the face . If mr Cameron cannot maintain theses locos then there should be a clause that prevents them being returned forever into static show and therefore deteriorate into such a condition that makes it impossible to return to steam in the future

I'm sure Mr. Cameron would welcome your offer

of time and money to put the loco through

another full overhaul to Network Rail standards

[Steamport Southport]

I don't think that money is the issue. He's made that perfectly clear.

 

 

If they are stuffed and mounted then so be it. At least they are safe.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Hilux5972]

It just really pees me off when people declare that somebody has a right to do whatever they want to historically important things because they own it, without repercussions.

 

Jason

How are either of them historically important? Mallard is the important one, being the 126mph loco. What did 60009 do? Yes the K4 is unique now, but again what did it do that’s so important? Sorry but don’t see either being so important as to warrant them to stay on the rails. Better stuffed and mounted than lying in a siding somewhere, rusting away while waiting to be overhauled.