Model Rail/Rapido Trains GER/LNER 'J70' 0-6-0T 'Project Toby'

[Steamport Southport]

I thought Fox already made GER transfers? I pointed them out about twenty pages ago....

 

https://www.fox-transfers.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/index/?q=great+eastern&scale=2235

 

Ignore the A1, Class 37 and 47 plates as I can't be bothered removing them from the search.

 

Liveries are here.

 

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/locomotives/j-holden/c53

 

 

 

Jason

Edited March 27, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[dibber25]

I thought the discussion was about the blue/outlined in red panels for the skirts being done as transfers, not GER lettering. (CJL)

[Annie]

19 hours ago, dibber25 said:

I haven't researched it but I understand there were two GER liveries - one with dark blue and the other with grey and red? (CJL)

The dark blue livery is much more fun.

[Edwardian]

On 26/03/2021 at 20:35, dibber25 said:

I haven't researched it but I understand there were two GER liveries - one with dark blue and the other with grey and red? (CJL)

 

Grey is the Hill's wartime locomotive livery (applied IIRC from 1915).  It was, therefore, applied to the skirts of the tram locomotives in place of ultramarine blue lined red with black border.

 

Coach livery went from varnished wood/painted coach brown, to crimson lake ic.1919.

 

This leads to at least three liveries for the Tram engines before Grouping:

 

Original: Ultramarine skirts with body painted coach brown

 

From c.1915, Grey skirts with coach brown body

 

From, c.1919-1921, Grey skirts and crimson body

 

I understand that the trams' wooden bodies were built and maintained by the carriage and wagon department, not the locomotive department.  

 

I daresay that there were other, more minor, livery variants, but that's just a summary off the top of my head. 

[Jammy2305]

18 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Grey is the Hill's wartime locomotive livery (applied IIRC from 1915).  It was, therefore, applied to the skirts of the tram locomotives in place of ultramarine blue lined red with black border.

 

Coach livery went from varnished wood/painted coach brown, to crimson lake ic.1919.

 

This leads to at least three liveries for the Tram engines before Grouping:

 

Original: Ultramarine skirts with body painted coach brown

 

From c.1915, Grey skirts with coach brown body

 

From, c.1919-1921, Grey skirts and crimson body

 

I understand that the trams' wooden bodies were built and maintained by the carriage and wagon department, not the locomotive department.  

 

I daresay that there were other, more minor, livery variants, but that's just a summary off the top of my head. 

 

Whilst grey replacing blue was initially the norm on mainline locos, the later GER grey livery omitted the black borders and it would appear from photo evidence that the trams were only ever treated to all over grey. I am of course happy to be proven wrong on that if anyone can find a photo of a grey skirted tram with black borders! 

 

- James

 

Edit: I realise I may have misread the original post and replied to a point that wasn't necessarily being made, to which I apologise to Edwardian if this is the case! 

Edited April 1, 2021 by jamesC37LG

[Edwardian]

7 minutes ago, jamesC37LG said:

 

Whilst grey replacing blue was initially the norm on mainline locos, the later GER grey livery omitted the black borders and it would appear from photo evidence that the trams were only ever treated to all over grey. I am of course happy to be proven wrong on that if anyone can find a photo of a grey skirted tram with black borders! 

 

- James

 

That is also my understanding.  I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. Grey replaced blue lined and bordered black was what I was attempting to convey.

 

The only pictures I have seen of the trams in grey is in plain grey, as you say. 

 

I forgot to mention the train control system introduced in 1921, which involved reproducing the locomotive number in large numerals on the sides of locomotives.

 

As the side plates and the wooden bodies seem to have been treated differently by different departments potentially at different times, and as there seems to be a little uncertainty as to exactly when coaches went into crimson (most likely 1919 it seems), I think the safest livery combination might be to have grey skirts with G E R lettering together with a brown body and grey plates with large numerals together with a crimson body.  Clearly initials with crimson is not impossible, however.  

 

 

Above, ultramarine blue bordered black

 

 

Above, grey with initials (from 1915)

 

 

Above, grey with train control large numerals (from 1921)

[Jammy2305]

43 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

That is also my understanding.  I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. Grey replaced blue lined and bordered black was what I was attempting to convey.

 

The only pictures I have seen of the trams in grey is in plain grey, as you say. 

 

I forgot to mention the train control system introduced in 1921, which involved reproducing the locomotive number in large numerals on the sides of locomotives.

 

As the side plates and the wooden bodies seem to have been treated differently by different departments potentially at different times, and as there seems to be a little uncertainty as to exactly when coaches went into crimson (most likely 1919 it seems), I think the safest livery combination might be to have grey skirts with G E R lettering together with a brown body and grey plates with large numerals together with a crimson body.  Clearly initials with crimson is not impossible, however.  

 

 

Above, ultramarine blue bordered black

 

 

Above, grey with initials (from 1915)

 

 

Above, grey with train control large numerals (from 1921)

 

Again, my apologies for the misunderstanding! 

 

I believe No.126 was one of the final locos built in 1921 and was in fact outshopped with a crimson body from new. The GER lettering seen in the photo is a very short lived livery variant carried by this loco (and presumably the other two locos of the batch). 

 

A similar example can be seen with K85 No.1002 which was modelled by Oxford with "Train Control" numbers, but a photo does exist of it carrying GER lettering. 

 

- James

[Edwardian]

3 minutes ago, jamesC37LG said:

 

Again, my apologies for the misunderstanding! 

 

I believe No.126 was one of the final locos built in 1921 and was in fact outshopped with a crimson body from new. The GER lettering seen in the photo is a very short lived livery variant carried by this loco (and presumably the other two locos of the batch). 

 

A similar example can be seen with K85 No.1002 which was modelled by Oxford with "Train Control" numbers, but a photo does exist of it carrying GER lettering. 

 

- James

 

Agreed, and yes, I would not make the assumption that other tram locos appeared in the 1921 livery. 

[Team Traction]

Well our prayers have been answered! Rapido are tooling the W&U Coach for their Titfiled range and I'm sure a Non Licenced Crimson variant could be produced. 

Now A GER J70 pretty please 

While im on this subject, i have a vivid memory that artwork was produced for the GE livery and published in a magazine before it was dropped. I Cant find this anywhere, i may be imagining it but if im not can anyone point me where to find it, or better yet have a copy of it?

Regards

 

[Edwardian]

34 minutes ago, Team Traction said:

Well our prayers have been answered! Rapido are tooling the W&U Coach for their Titfiled range and I'm sure a Non Licenced Crimson variant could be produced. 

Now A GER J70 pretty please 

While im on this subject, i have a vivid memory that artwork was produced for the GE livery and published in a magazine before it was dropped. I Cant find this anywhere, i may be imagining it but if im not can anyone point me where to find it, or better yet have a copy of it?

Regards

 

 

Crimson would be nice, but if there is a GER or LNER in-service version, I would vote for GE coach brown, to go with a blue and brown C53. 

 

In summary:

 

- GER Coach Brown, 1884-1892 - FIRST - SECOND composite

 

- GER Coach Brown, 1892-c.1919* - FIRST - THIRD Composite

 

- GER Crimson, c.1919-1923 - FIRST - THIRD Composite

 

- LNER Coach Brown, 1923-1927

 

* Presumably with a change in the initials from 1903.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Edwardian
Addition

[Team Traction]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

Crimson would be nice, but if there is a GER or LNER in-service version, I would vote for GE coach brown, to go with a blue and brown C53. 

 

In summary:

 

- GER Coach Brown, 1884-1892 - FIRST - SECOND composite

 

- GER Coach Brown, 1892-c.1919* - FIRST - THIRD Composite

 

- GER Crimson, c.1919-1923 - FIRST - THIRD Composite

 

- LNER Coach Brown, 1923-1927

 

* Presumably with a change in the initials from 1903.

 

 

I was just wondering about liveries of the Tramcoaches! I assumed they were painted teak before 1919, as that was supposedly the norm. Just out of curiosity did the 2 bogies receive BR maroon or crimson as they both survived until '51, or were they withdrawn still in LNER guise.

Regards,

 

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Team Traction said:

I was just wondering about liveries of the Tramcoaches! I assumed they were painted teak before 1919, as that was supposedly the norm. Just out of curiosity did the 2 bogies receive BR maroon or crimson as they both survived until '51, or were they withdrawn still in LNER guise.

Regards,

 

 

I think they went to Tollesbury.  I don't know how long they lasted there.  I was only considering them in the context of the C53/J70 and, therefore, the W&U, on which IIRC, the passenger service ended in 1927. 

[stewartingram]

4 hours ago, Team Traction said:

Well our prayers have been answered! Rapido are tooling the W&U Coach for their Titfiled range and I'm sure a Non Licenced Crimson variant could be produced. 

Now A GER J70 pretty please 

While im on this subject, i have a vivid memory that artwork was produced for the GE livery and published in a magazine before it was dropped. I Cant find this anywhere, i may be imagining it but if im not can anyone point me where to find it, or better yet have a copy of it?

Regards

 

Model Railways February 1984 - I have a digital copy open in front of me. As wellas plenty of other articles scanned from old mags, GER society articles, and the kit instructions from Conoisseur!

 

Stewart

[Team Traction]

14 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Model Railways February 1984 - I have a digital copy open in front of me. As wellas plenty of other articles scanned from old mags, GER society articles, and the kit instructions from Conoisseur!

 

Stewart

would you mind private messaging me a copy?

Regards.

[Jammy2305]

5 hours ago, Team Traction said:

I was just wondering about liveries of the Tramcoaches! I assumed they were painted teak before 1919, as that was supposedly the norm. Just out of curiosity did the 2 bogies receive BR maroon or crimson as they both survived until '51, or were they withdrawn still in LNER guise.

Regards,

 

 

I believe they ended their days in LNER brown

[Annie]

37 minutes ago, jamesC37LG said:

 

I believe they ended their days in LNER brown

Sounds a terrible fate.  

[Edwardian]

3 hours ago, Annie said:

Sounds a terrible fate.  

 

Save that I don't think LNER coach brown was much different from GER coach brown

 

[braced for correction]

[Edwardian]

Not my period of interest, so I haven't looked into the issue of post-Grouping liveries for the tram coaches, but I thought others would be interested in these photographs and captions

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[B661Sutton]

Does anyone know how easy it is to convert these models to P4/S4? I would love one of these models, but I'm slowly making the move to P4 and I'd like a P4 J70. If it's not possible, then what's the next best alternative? Any suggestions are welcome.

[dibber25]

1 hour ago, B661Sutton said:

Does anyone know how easy it is to convert these models to P4/S4? I would love one of these models, but I'm slowly making the move to P4 and I'd like a P4 J70. If it's not possible, then what's the next best alternative? Any suggestions are welcome.

I don't know of anyone who has converted the 'J70' to 'P4. I suspect much depends on whether you want a skirted or unskirted version and how much of the model you are willing to throw away. Unskirted would probably be easier provided you are not worried about the overall width. On the skirted version, even bearing in mind that 16.5mm gauge wins you a couple of extra mm to play with, it still proved necessary to omit the expansion links on the valve gear to make everything fit behind the skirts. The chassis and interior (boiler) detail of the J70 are largely die-castings held together with screws, which don't lend themselves to easy modification. (CJL)

[B661Sutton]

2 hours ago, dibber25 said:

I don't know of anyone who has converted the 'J70' to 'P4. I suspect much depends on whether you want a skirted or unskirted version and how much of the model you are willing to throw away. Unskirted would probably be easier provided you are not worried about the overall width. On the skirted version, even bearing in mind that 16.5mm gauge wins you a couple of extra mm to play with, it still proved necessary to omit the expansion links on the valve gear to make everything fit behind the skirts. The chassis and interior (boiler) detail of the J70 are largely die-castings held together with screws, which don't lend themselves to easy modification. (CJL)

Ok, thank you. I see it would be quite a difficult conversion to do. I'll wait to see if anyone else has tried it and see how they did it before tackling it myself. I'd personally go for the skirted variant because I prefer the look of a j70 with skirts trundling down the W&U and it could hide any bodges and such.

[James J]

I'm slightly confused over the two unskirted LNER lined variants- there is a partially skirted which only has the cowcatchers, however the 'no skirts' version also has them. I thought the fully unskirted version did not have these, and the only difference I can see from their pictures is that the fully unskirted one has the chains over the cowcatcher. Can anyone advise?

[MarkSG]

37 minutes ago, James J said:

I'm slightly confused over the two unskirted LNER lined variants- there is a partially skirted which only has the cowcatchers, however the 'no skirts' version also has them. I thought the fully unskirted version did not have these, and the only difference I can see from their pictures is that the fully unskirted one has the chains over the cowcatcher. Can anyone advise?

 

The cowcatchers are removable, so there isn't actually any difference between partially and fully unskirted, as you can interchange between them. Spare cowcatchers are included, because the default ones have a hole for the NEM couplings but if you prefer a more authentic appearance with three-link couplings you can use the more authentic ones without the cut-out. Or you can remove them completely, to give the loco its main line running appearance.

 

What you can't do is interchange between side skirts and no side skirts. If the model has them, they're not removable, and if it doesn't, there's no option to fit them.

[Corbs]

On 02/04/2021 at 14:12, Edwardian said:

Not my period of interest, so I haven't looked into the issue of post-Grouping liveries for the tram coaches, but I thought others would be interested in these photographs and captions

 

 

 

 

 

As I understand it the caption is incorrect, the one in the film was scrapped and the survivor is the other one.

[dibber25]

1 hour ago, Corbs said:

 

As I understand it the caption is incorrect, the one in the film was scrapped and the survivor is the other one.

One of the pair was done up at Stratford works in GER varnished teak........and then scrapped anyway. I have a very nice photo of it ex-works, if I can find it. (CJL)