Bachmann Midland 1P 0-4-4T

[John-Miles]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That would be a job for one of Mansfield's three VCR-fitted engines, I assume.

IIRC Southwell engines were supplied by Nottingham. I think there is an article in Midland Record about them.

[daltonparva]

38 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So the Bachmann model is incorrect for the period 1928-1938 but that's not what it's seeking to represent.

That's what gets me. The period you quote is what I (and I suspect many others that have an interest in things LMS)  tend to fondly imagine as representative of the company, not the last few months between the war and BR's formation. Bachmann ignore the large time period that rosy-spectacled people like me grew up seeing models of, and instead seem to concentrate on a very short specific period at the end of the company's existence, therefore probably limiting sales of their models and subsequently probably curtailing future productions. Which do you think would have sold more, the plain black compound they produced, or a red "crimson rambler"?

Edited November 20, 2020 by daltonparva

[NHY 581]

58 minutes ago, daltonparva said:

Doesn't mean Bachmann will do them. Someone there only seems to like plain black for LMS. Still waiting for a red compound, the 2-4-2 tank should have been lined, this 1P should be lined. 

Signed

Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells.

 

 

Are you sure ? 

 

 

Rob. 

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, daltonparva said:

That's what gets me. The period you quote is what I (and I suspect many others that have an interest in things LMS)  tend to fondly imagine as representative of the company, not the last few months between the war and BR's formation. Bachmann ignore the large time period that rosy-spectacled people like me grew up seeing models of, and instead seem to concentrate on a very short specific period at the end of the company's existence, therefore probably limiting sales of their models and subsequently probably curtailing future productions. Which do you think would have sold more, the plain black compound they produced, or a red "crimson rambler"?

 

Well put. However, by producing consistently "late LMS" models, they are enabling modellers of that period to obtain a reasonably balanced stud of locomotives, backed up by suitable carriages. One shouldn't underestimate the challenges the rosy-spectacled face in modelling the 1930s - not the least of which is passenger rolling stock: a great deal of pre-grouping stock in service and probably almost all of that and much LMS standard stock fully-lined out in Midland style.

 

If modelling the LMS in the 1930s, one is really modelling pre-Grouping with a coating of inter-war grime and a veneer of modernity. The LMS was at its most completely LMS-ish in the period around nationalisation, by which time much pre-Grouping equipment had been replaced by standard equipment - for example, the characteristic tubular post upper quadrant signals had become widespread.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Compound2632

[daltonparva]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The LMS was at its most completely LMS-ish in the period around nationalisation, by which time much pre-Grouping equipment had been replaced by standard equipment 

I will have to differ with you there. To old rosy-tints here, LMS-ish is circa 39, when you had most of the new standard Stanier locos alongside a wonderful variety of pre-grouping engines, giving great scope for all manner of things to be seen "on shed".

[PaulRhB]

It’s pretty common to not do all the desirable liveries in the first batch  It does mean that you are more likely to buy another later because that’s one you really really want on top of the initial ‘ooh!’ purchase. 

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

It’s pretty common to not do all the desirable liveries in the first batch  It does mean that you are more likely to buy another later because that’s one you really really want on top of the initial ‘ooh!’ purchase. 

 

And it does also mean that by the time you've just finished painstakingly modifying the one you bought in the first rush to your desired condition, one is issued in just that state!

[Phil Parker]

12 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

It’s pretty common to not do all the desirable liveries in the first batch  It does mean that you are more likely to buy another later because that’s one you really really want on top of the initial ‘ooh!’ purchase. 

 

I had this explained to me by a diecast manufacturer. They always produced the popular colours in the second batch as it increased sales.

[daltonparva]

10 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

It’s pretty common to not do all the desirable liveries in the first batch  It does mean that you are more likely to buy another later because that’s one you really really want on top of the initial ‘ooh!’ purchase. 

That's the theory. In the examples we've been discussing above, we're still waiting for the "second batch" of Compounds some 8-9 years later, and the 2-4-2 tanks however long they've been out.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, daltonparva said:

That's the theory. In the examples we've been discussing above, we're still waiting for the "second batch" of Compounds some 8-9 years later, and the 2-4-2 tanks however long they've been out.

 

Well, yes, but we know that Bachmann are like the butcher whose assistant sat on the bacon slicer - behind with their orders.

[PaulRhB]

32 minutes ago, daltonparva said:

That's the theory. In the examples we've been discussing above, we're still waiting for the "second batch" of Compounds some 8-9 years later, and the 2-4-2 tanks however long they've been out.

Well only Bachmann have the actual sales figures on that to decide when another batch is viable to them. I’m still waiting for Hornby to do an olive green Radial as I would prefer that to the Oxford one. I’m not sure how many batches of LNWR livery Precedents are likely in a short time so I’ve ordered two because I expect there will be a similar gap so I’ll take a gamble on my hunch. 

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, daltonparva said:

That's the theory. In the examples we've been discussing above, we're still waiting for the "second batch" of Compounds some 8-9 years later, and the 2-4-2 tanks however long they've been out.

True, but examples of both from the initial releases defied modern expectations by remaining readily obtainable for an uncomfortably long time after they hit the shops, and only finally disappeared with the aid of some pretty hefty retailer discounting. Bachmann clearly overestimated potential demand when deciding production quantities and will presumably be cagey about the possibility of repeat performances.

 

They are by no means alone in mismatching supply and demand; I've benefitted from a number of low priced locos from Hornby that I probably wouldn't have bought at all but for the reductions.  72xx, loco-drive 2P and 4F and my third S15 (I'd only planned on having two) spring readily to mind.

 

I'd think Bachmann's own lesson will have been reinforced by witnessing their main competitor rushing out second and even third runs before the market had properly absorbed the first.

 

They might be treating the Wish-Lists with a little caution, too. Most prototypes with really broad popular potential have been done already, and input comes from a relatively small segment of the hobby as a whole. I do wonder if that's led some rather "niche" items to perhaps seem better commercial bets than they really are?

 

John

Edited November 20, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[daltonparva]

3 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

True, but examples of both from the initial releases defied modern expectations by remaining readily obtainable for an uncomfortably long time after they hit the shops, and only finally disappeared with the aid of some pretty hefty retailer discounting. Bachmann clearly overestimated potential demand when deciding production quantities and will presumably be cagey about the possibility of repeat performances.

 

They are by no means alone in mismatching supply and demand; I've benefitted from a number of low priced locos from Hornby that I probably wouldn't have bought at all but for the reductions.  72xx, loco-drive 2P and 4F and my third S15 (I'd only planned on having two) spring readily to mind.

 

I'd think Bachmann's own lesson will have been reinforced by witnessing their main competitor rushing out second and even third runs before the market had properly absorbed the first.

 

They might be treating the Wish-Lists with a little caution, too. Most prototypes with really broad popular potential have been done already, and input comes from a relatively small segment of the hobby as a whole. I do wonder if that's led some rather "niche" items to perhaps seem better commercial bets than they really are?

 

John

You are basically reiterateing what I said previously. In LMS terms they initially release a "secondary" livery, sales don't meet expectations, 2nd run of "primary" livery delayed/postponed. If they had done the livery most people might expect/prefer then sales might have been better in the first place.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, daltonparva said:

sales don't meet expectations

 

You don't know that, in this instance.

[daltonparva]

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You don't know that, in this instance.

I was responding and paraphrasing from this.

39 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

True, but examples of both from the initial releases defied modern expectations by remaining readily obtainable for an uncomfortably long time after they hit the shops, and only finally disappeared with the aid of some pretty hefty retailer discounting. Bachmann clearly overestimated potential demand when deciding production quantities and will presumably be cagey about the possibility of repeat performances.

 

They are by no means alone in mismatching supply and demand; I've benefitted from a number of low priced locos from Hornby that I probably wouldn't have bought at all but for the reductions.  72xx, loco-drive 2P and 4F and my third S15 (I'd only planned on having two) spring readily to mind.

 

I'd think Bachmann's own lesson will have been reinforced by witnessing their main competitor rushing out second and even third runs before the market had properly absorbed the first.

 

They might be treating the Wish-Lists with a little caution, too. Most prototypes with really broad popular potential have been done already, and input comes from a relatively small segment of the hobby as a whole. I do wonder if that's led some rather "niche" items to perhaps seem better commercial bets than they really are?

 

John

 

[adb968008]

On 20/11/2020 at 20:47, Dunsignalling said:

examples of both from the initial releases defied modern expectations by remaining readily obtainable for an uncomfortably long time after they hit the shops, and only finally disappeared with the aid of some pretty hefty retailer discounting. Bachmann clearly overestimated potential demand when deciding production quantities and will presumably be cagey about the possibility of repeat performances.

 

On 20/11/2020 at 20:58, daltonparva said:

You are basically reiterateing what I said previously. In LMS terms they initially release a "secondary" livery, sales don't meet expectations, 2nd run of "primary" livery delayed/postponed. If they had done the livery most people might expect/prefer then sales might have been better in the first place.

I think your both saying the same thing from different ends.

The compound was announced at a head and shoulders price above its contemporaries at the time, iirc £139 ? Vs c£100 models at the time.
We have seen very often a perfectly good model, become stagnant when this happens, because modelling is a fashion. There is a rush to greet the trend, but once the trend passes, moving them is hard no matter what the price.

 

Simply the Compound was expensive, people paused, instead of rushing in. Then it fell out of fashion, and fell into the clearance bins. Had it been cheaper at the start, I do think the usual model of “must have now”, followed by “actually this is the livery I wanted” would have happened.

 

I have to admit having benefitted the discounting of compounds, more than 6 have been dismantled by me to provide chassis upgrades to ye olde triang motored iron aged models, the tenders gave much variety to my Crabs, Jubilees, 8fs etc.

 

I do feel those days of “buy it all buy it now”  outside of a sale,  are now behind us, purchasers are more cautious and less likely to buy an armful than they used to be... That said people do like a bargain and the Dapol Mogul looks exceedingly good for its price, whether people do that for the 9400 for pretty much the same price remains to be seen.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by adb968008

[Butler Henderson]

The latest Model Rail has a review of 1303 and on test without the traction tyre wheels fitted it hauled seven coaches on the level but only two on a 1 in 60 grade and just one on a 1 in 30 grade. Bunker first on the 1 in 30 grade it did manage 2. 

[Zunnan]

Two is all I need for a pull-push, the 1 in 56 I have on the branch seemingly might prove a challenge though...

[MikeParkin65]

On 24/11/2020 at 18:56, Butler Henderson said:

The latest Model Rail has a review of 1303 and on test without the traction tyre wheels fitted it hauled seven coaches on the level but only two on a 1 in 60 grade and just one on a 1 in 30 grade. Bunker first on the 1 in 30 grade it did manage 2. 

Best (as in most informative) review so far I think - pluses and minuses with photographic evidence of where the model varies from the prototype. 

[phil-b259]

On 20/11/2020 at 18:14, PaulRhB said:

 I’m still waiting for Hornby to do an olive green Radial as I would prefer that to the Oxford one.

 

Dito

 

And a Olive schools with smoke deflectors, a King Arthur without them, etc

 

That said Bachmann have at least released / are releasing the L&Y 2-4-2T in two versions of LMS Crimson (one with the roundel and one with 'LMS' on the bunker side), though as you say a lined black version has yet to be seen.

 

The other big omission is anything in the early LMS freight livery (unlined black with large numbers on the tanks / tender and a small pseudo LMS red plate on the bunker / cabside.

 

As others have said with the higher prices these days I am having to be a bit more cautious in what I buy - and WW2 austerity LMS liveries are not something I will be spending money on.

[phil-b259]

On 22/11/2020 at 12:20, adb968008 said:

 

 

Simply the Compound was expensive, people paused, instead of rushing in. Then it fell out of fashion, and fell into the clearance bins. Had it been cheaper at the start, I do think the usual model of “must have now”, followed by “actually this is the livery I wanted” would have happened.

 

 

The compound is a nice loco - but dreadfully dull in LMS plain black.

 

Also it was a rather a silly decision to go with the preserved one as a main range (as opposed to a limited edition) release when there wasn't anything (and still isn't anything) early LMS / late MR for it to pull (yes I know the 'as preserved' might be different from its actual MR condition, but for many it would probably be close enough).

 

Problem is that these choices meant the loco was perceived as a slow seller or 'maroon liveries don't sell' mentality thus harming the chances of other liveries in future.

 

Mind you we have also seen the reverse from Hornby where they churned out exactly the same configuration of Olive liveried King Arthur year after year then wondered why later batches didn't sell well.

[MikeParkin65]

7 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

 

Also it was a rather a silly decision to go with the preserved one as a main range (as opposed to a limited edition) release when there wasn't anything (and still isn't anything) early LMS / late MR for it to pull (yes I know the 'as preserved' might be different from its actual MR condition, but for many it would probably be close enough).

 

 

The Maroon 1000 was originally a limited edition sold as part of the National Collection 'collection'. I think they either over estimated demand or pitched the initial price too high hence the appearance of the model in the main range. I stand to be corrected but I am pretty sure the main range release is a simple repackaging of the unsold NRM stock. I bought my 1000 (from the NRM at full price :() precisely because it fits in with my broadly late '50's to mid '60's theme - it comes out on 'specials' and looks right at home on a mixed rake of maroon ex LMS and BR Mk's1.

 

 

[phil-b259]

12 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

The Maroon 1000 was originally a limited edition sold as part of the National Collection 'collection'. I think they either over estimated demand or pitched the initial price too high hence the appearance of the model in the main range. I stand to be corrected but I am pretty sure the main range release is a simple repackaging of the unsold NRM stock. I bought my 1000 (from the NRM at full price :() precisely because it fits in with my broadly late '50's to mid '60's theme - it comes out on 'specials' and looks right at home on a mixed rake of maroon ex LMS and BR Mk's1.

 

 

 

1000 is rather excessive for a limited edition - more usually its around 540. Granted it was one of the earlier releases by the NRM so they could be excused for misjudging the market.

 

It is however still restricted in its sphere of operation. By contrast the latest model to be announced (Hardwicke) not only has the previously released Coal Tank to keep it company, there is also Hattons LNWR liveried 'Generic' coaches plus 'Lucknow' due from Rails. This allows the model to also appeal to those looking to model the LNWR as well as those wanting to model the 1950s / 1960s / 1970s scene.

 

Obviously beauty is in the eye of the beholder but in my view a Midland liveried loco does certainly not look 'right' haling a bunch of BR liveried Stainer coaches or Mk1s. The mismatch between the extensively lined out loco and plain coaches in a similar shade does not work from a visual perspective.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Obviously beauty is in the eye of the beholder but in my view a Midland liveried loco does certainly not look 'right' haling a bunch of BR liveried Stainer coaches or Mk1s. The mismatch between the extensively lined out loco and plain coaches in a similar shade does not work from a visual perspective.

 

On a point of order, 1000 is no more extensively lined out than a BR crimson Coronation pacific.

[No Decorum]

9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The compound is a nice loco - but dreadfully dull in LMS plain black.

 

Hm. I avoided the red Compound simply because it had the same running number as the old Hornby Compound, which I had no intention of dumping. Instead, I got a plain black Compound, just to see what sort of shape Bachmann had made of it. It’s a very good model but I was taken by surprise by how much I liked it. Not long previously, I had got hold of an SLW 24. A very fine model in many respects but it just didn’t quite match my expectations, which were high on account of the hype. Why? Eventually I realised. The 24 had a very flat and dull finish, whereas Bachmann’s black was deep and lustrous. Just a purely personal reaction.