Bachmann Midland 1P 0-4-4T

[BMacdermott]

Hello Ian

 

More reliable records indicate that 58086 was towed away from Bath Green Park on 10 August 1960.

 

Brian

[chris45lsw]

Still there in April 1962, according to this I found: http://www.archive-images.co.uk/gallery/Archive-Colour-Images-of-the-Railways-of-Somerset/image/66/No_58086_Bath_Green_Park_Shed_1962

I suspect Bachmann's tooling will only cope with the '1532' class by which I take them to mean MR/LMS Nos. 1266-1380 / BR 58039 - 58072 (though some would sub-divide these into the 1532, 1823 & 1833 classes).  MR/LMS Nos. 1381-1430 / BR 58073 - 58091 constituted the '2228' class and these had slightly higher side tanks and six inches shorter cabs than the '1532s'.  So unless one is prepared to ignore these, admittedly, not glaringly obvious differences renumbering to 'celebrity' late survivors - 58085 (Lincoln for the Southwell branch) and 58086 (Bath) is not on the cards. 

 

l do find it a shame that Bachmann have chosen to make their first BR 1P (58072) a condensing loco when the vast majority were non-condensers.  58072 was, of course, on the S&D but they could have picked non-condensing 58046 or 58051 which were also on the S&D in BR days.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas 

[NHY 581]

I suspect Bachmann's tooling will only cope with the '1532' class by which I take them to mean MR/LMS Nos. 1266-1380 / BR 58039 - 58072 (though some would sub-divide these into the 1532, 1823 & 1833 classes).  MR/LMS Nos. 1381-1430 / BR 58073 - 58091 constituted the '2228' class and these had slightly higher side tanks and six inches shorter cabs than the '1532s'.  So unless one is prepared to ignore these, admittedly, not glaringly obvious differences renumbering to 'celebrity' late survivors - 58085 (Lincoln for the Southwell branch) and 58086 (Bath) is not on the cards. 

 

l do find it a shame that Bachmann have chosen to make their first BR 1P (58072) a condensing loco when the vast majority were non-condensers.  58072 was, of course, on the S&D but they could have picked non-condensing 58046 or 58051 which were also on the S&D in BR days.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

 

Agree. An absolute disaster. Bachmann have only given themselves approximately 104 locos which saw service with three different companies and numerous livery/boiler combinations to choose from.

 

To exclude the 46 or thereabouts locos of the 2228 is an oversight of biblical proportions........

 

58072 is an obvious choice as it returned to the S&D main line in 1955 for a few months.

 

I'm just grateful that Bachmann have decided to produce a 1P and have chosen to model the majority.

 

My glass is half full.....

 

 

Rob

[PenrithBeacon]

AFAIK their only use in the North-West was the push-pull to Buxton.

[Steamport Southport]

AFAIK their only use in the North-West was the push-pull to Buxton.

 

That's only in later days.

 

They were often used around Manchester and other major cities on suburban trains. Even Liverpool via the CLC. They were after all the only MR passenger tank, apart from the Flatiron which was later used as freight only due to it's tendency to derail at speed. Not counting the earlier 0-4-4Ts which they replaced.

 

I'll try and find some allocations, I've got them somewhere.

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

The Airfix/Dapol suburban coaches are not suitable as they are toilet fitted and would not see much branch line use but I agree the recent Hornby ones would be a better bet.

 

Not suitable for branch lines, but they were downgraded from mainline use to suburban quite quickly as the LMS preferred corridor trains for mainline trains. So they would have been pulled by MR 0-4-4Ts.

 

 

 

Jason

[PenrithBeacon]

That's only in later days.

 

They were often used around Manchester and other major cities on suburban trains. Even Liverpool via the CLC. They were after all the only MR passenger tank, apart from the Flatiron which was later used as freight only due to it's tendency to derail at speed. Not counting the earlier 0-4-4Ts which they replaced.

 

I'll try and find some allocations, I've got them somewhere.

 

 

Jason

Thanks for that, I knew the Flatirons were used on the Manchester South District line until replaced by Fowler 2-6-4T and 2-6-2T, but I don't have any info on the 0-4-4T in the Manchester area. I thought the GCR and LNER provided engines for the CLC excepting the steam railcars

[Poor Old Bruce]

The Airfix/Dapol suburban coaches are not suitable as they are toilet fitted and would not see much branch line use but I agree the recent Hornby ones would be a better bet.

 

Not suitable for branch lines, but they were downgraded from mainline use to suburban quite quickly as the LMS preferred corridor trains for mainline trains. So they would have been pulled by MR 0-4-4Ts.

 

Jason

 

Would that be the Airfix/Dapol or the Hornby coaches you are referring to Jason?

 

How would you differentiate 'suburban' and 'mainline' services? Surely the 'suburban' non-corridor coaches were built for suburban train services.

[Steamport Southport]

Would that be the Airfix/Dapol or the Hornby coaches you are referring to Jason?

 

How would you differentiate 'suburban' and 'mainline' services? Surely the 'suburban' non-corridor coaches were built for suburban train services.

 

The Airfix/Dapol inter district lavatory sets. The term suburban is a bit of a misnomer as similar coaches were used on country routes that didn't go near suburbia.

 

They were built to replace older stock, mainly ex LNWR, on mainline trains between major cities such as Manchester, Birmingham and Leeds where a lavatory was needed. They were originally meant to be in fixed sets but there is no evidence that they were ever formed in to sets. There was only 25 of the two types built, 50 in all.. Although there were more of the earlier diagrams.

 

But they were superseded by corridor trains pretty quickly and downgraded for use on suburban trains around the major cities. They were deemed obsolete by 1930 and no more lavatory non corridor stock were built for the LMS apart from some for the LT&SR. I bet the people that got one with a lavatory were happy.

 

So suitable for use with a MR 0-4-4T. But I would just have one or two at most.

 

 

 

Info from The LMS Coach by Essery and Jenkinson. Described a lot more eloquently than I can manage.

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

Thanks for that, I knew the Flatirons were used on the Manchester South District line until replaced by Fowler 2-6-4T and 2-6-2T, but I don't have any info on the 0-4-4T in the Manchester area. I thought the GCR and LNER provided engines for the CLC excepting the steam railcars

 

Plenty of ex Midland stock was used.

 

This is my local station. Complete with Midland Spinner on an express.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/halewood/

 

 

Jason

[PenrithBeacon]

Plenty of ex Midland stock was used.

 

This is my local station. Complete with Midland Spinner on an express.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/halewood/

 

 

Jason

Yes MR stock on MR expresses and GN and GC stock on their expresses too. But the CLC services had GC engines with, usually, CLC stock. So you wouldn't get a CLC train hauled by a MR 0-4-4T.

[Compound2632]

Plenty of ex Midland stock was used.

 

This is my local station. Complete with Midland Spinner on an express.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/halewood/

 

 

Jason

 It pains me to say it but that Pollitt single makes the spinner look positively effete!

 

The Ratio MR Bain suburban carriages are spot on to put behind a Midland 0-4-4T (or a Flatiron) up until the mid-to-late 30s, in either the Manchester or Birmingham areas. Manchester sets were introduced in 1902 and formed BT/T/T/F/F/F/F/T/BT and worked between Manchester Central, Stockport and Cheadle Heath. The Birmingham area got these carriages in 1907/8, formed into 6-coach sets BT/T/F/F/T/BT working mostly between Birmingham New Street and King's Norton, or round the Lifford Loop, though also on some services to Redditch or as far as Evesham; 4-coach sets BT/T/F/BT working mostly between New Street , Walsall and Wolverhampton, and 4-coach sets BT/T/C/BT working from New Street down the Gloucester loop line as far south as Ashchurch - these sets were the only ones to use the 4-compartment brake thirds and the composites, which had 4F and 3T compartments but the same body as the all-F carriages - presumably this larger luggage space and lower proportion of first class seats reflected the more rural sphere of operation. There were also some 3-coach sets BT/F/BT used as strengtheners on the inner-city services.

 

Theses kits can also represent the Sheffield area stock of 1912 but these had 8ft wheelbase bogies; all these carriages were 8ft 6in wide, later suburban carriages were of similar appearance but 9ft wide with the upper sides leaning inwards slightly - 'clipper' profile - and six vertical panels in the ends rather than five.

 

Some of this is from Lacy & Dow, Midland Carriages Vol. 2; the detail about the Birmingham area sets is from my own research using the carriage marshalling books and timetables held by the Midland Railway Study Centre.

[Compound2632]

Yes MR stock on MR expresses and GN and GC stock on their expresses too. But the CLC services had GC engines with, usually, CLC stock. So you wouldn't get a CLC train hauled by a MR 0-4-4T.

 

No Midland passenger tank engines at Liverpool in 1920 - only spinners and 4-4-0s for passenger, 0-6-0s for goods, 0-6-0Ts for trip work and shunting the Midland's goods stations in the area and 0-4-0Ts for dockside work. (Hawkins & Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2)

[PenrithBeacon]

No Midland passenger tank engines at Liverpool in 1920 - only spinners and 4-4-0s for passenger, 0-6-0s for goods, 0-6-0Ts for trip work and shunting the Midland's goods stations in the area and 0-4-0Ts for dockside work. (Hawkins & Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2)

I think that probably covers it.

 

Re your post on MR Bain suburban carriage stock; in the 50s before electrification these were used as four coach trains on the Styal Loop hauled by a Stanier 0-4-4T. I used to go down to Longsight to observe using that service from Heald Green.

 

Regards

[Compound2632]

Re your post on MR Bain suburban carriage stock; in the 50s before electrification these were used as four coach trains on the Styal Loop hauled by a Stanier 0-4-4T. I used to go down to Longsight to observe using that service from Heald Green.

 

Lacy & Dow give withdrawal dates for the Manchester area sets: they were withdrawn pretty much as intact nine-coach sets from 1938 with only one of the seven sets surviving the war, going in 1947. They also record that the Birmingham area stock, being about seven years younger, survived proportionately longer - many were transferred to the LT&S section in 1933/4, a couple of thirds went to the NCC in 1948, four went to L&Y electric sets, a couple of composites and a brake third were motor-fitted (i.e equipped for push-pull work) by 1931, a handful went to the London area and a handful were sold to the War Dept in 1945 - but most were withdrawn 1947-51 with the very last few going in 1955/6. The Sheffield district stock had all gone by a couple of years later, as had the 9ft wide Nottingham area stock and the Metropolitan area stock - the last built, some dating from 1916. Four coach sets suggest the Nottingham area stock but evidently if these were arc-roof coaches they didn't last right up to electrification (1959?).

[coachmann]

A 3-coach Bain arc roof set was running round the Manchester area on L&Y lines in the early 1950's, although one of the coaches was a narrow one. They worked the Oldham Loop on occasions. I did a short production run of the Birmingham stock in etched brass in 2005 including the push pull driving trailer.

Edited January 17, 2017 by coachmann

[Joseph_Pestell]

 It pains me to say it but that Pollitt single makes the spinner look positively effete!

 

The Ratio MR Bain suburban carriages are spot on to put behind a Midland 0-4-4T (or a Flatiron) up until the mid-to-late 30s, in either the Manchester or Birmingham areas. Manchester sets were introduced in 1902 and formed BT/T/T/F/F/F/F/T/BT and worked between Manchester Central, Stockport and Cheadle Heath. The Birmingham area got these carriages in 1907/8, formed into 6-coach sets BT/T/F/F/T/BT working mostly between Birmingham New Street and King's Norton, or round the Lifford Loop, though also on some services to Redditch or as far as Evesham; 4-coach sets BT/T/F/BT working mostly between New Street , Walsall and Wolverhampton, and 4-coach sets BT/T/C/BT working from New Street down the Gloucester loop line as far south as Ashchurch - these sets were the only ones to use the 4-compartment brake thirds and the composites, which had 4F and 3T compartments but the same body as the all-F carriages - presumably this larger luggage space and lower proportion of first class seats reflected the more rural sphere of operation. There were also some 3-coach sets BT/F/BT used as strengtheners on the inner-city services.

 

Theses kits can also represent the Sheffield area stock of 1912 but these had 8ft wheelbase bogies; all these carriages were 8ft 6in wide, later suburban carriages were of similar appearance but 9ft wide with the upper sides leaning inwards slightly - 'clipper' profile - and six vertical panels in the ends rather than five.

 

Some of this is from Lacy & Dow, Midland Carriages Vol. 2; the detail about the Birmingham area sets is from my own research using the carriage marshalling books and timetables held by the Midland Railway Study Centre.

Surely some of those trains would be too heavy for a loco rated at 1P.

[Poor Old Bruce]

A cheap source for a PP conversion used by many people has been the old Graham Farish suburban brake coach. Some of the LMS coach conversions seem to have retained their duckets and some didn't.

 

Yes, I have one of those tucked away in the loft, though it hasn't turned a wheel for many years and didn't turn that many even before, due to lack of anything suitable to pull it once I understood more about such things.

 

Someone used to sell a little plastic moulding for the distinctive three-window end, which made it a fairly simple simple 'cut out, glaze, stick in and filler round the edges, then just add a couple of vac pipes' job, though I've no idea how accurate that left the rest of the body.

 

It was Colin Ashby. The Graham Farish coaches are a little bit short I think and the bogies are also too short but they do roll nicely.

[Compound2632]

Surely some of those trains would be too heavy for a loco rated at 1P.

 

Hence the introduction of the 0-6-4T 'Flatirons' which went initially mostly to Manchester and Birmingham. Remember, too, that the classification system when first introduced on the Midland was for goods engines, only later being adopted for passenger engines and the P/F/XP/MT suffixes were a later LMS invention. So at the time of introduction of the nine-coach Manchester sets, presumably the 0-4-4Ts had to work hard and do their best.

 

That said, in most of the photos on the Warwickshire Railways site that show these sets there's a 0-6-4T at the head but here's a 0-4-4-T on a six-coach set; I expect most people would be happier modelling a four-coach set but remember, don't mix the brake thirds - either a pair of six-compartment brake thirds with a third and a first, or a pair of four-compartment brake thirds with a third and a composite - the latter ideal for Studley and Astwood Bank. Such a shame Sweven's stopped posting on his inspirational thread; I gather the layout made the trip from NZ to Warley but I was unfortunately unable to go.

[coachmann]

A 1P 0-4-4T is perfectly capable of hauling a 6-coach train or even more, but at what speed. Running a train to a meaningful timetable was the main objective. I've seen Stanier 2-8-0's with 21 coaches(ECS) going hell for leather through Abergele but i wonder what distance it took to get them really moving. I saw similarities in more recent years when the failure of a Class 37 meant one loco had to haul two sets amounting to 10 coaches...... Not a great load for a 37, but it was unable to keep time. Five coaches with a '37 was lightweight but it was probably based on enough seats for the job, a speedy service and lesser use of fuel and brake shoes. The Class 31's could not operate this service and keep time although initially it was 6 -7 coaches.

[Blandford1969]

A 1P 0-4-4T is perfectly capable of hauling a 6-coach train or even more, but at what speed. Running a train to a meaningful timetable was the main objective. I've seen Stanier 2-8-0's with 21 coaches(ECS) going hell for leather through Abergele but i wonder what distance it took to get them really moving. I saw similarities in more recent years when the failure of a Class 37 meant one loco had to haul two sets amounting to 10 coaches...... Not a great load for a 37, but it was unable to keep time. Five coaches with a '37 was lightweight but it was probably based on enough seats for the job, a speedy service and lesser use of fuel and brake shoes. The Class 31's could not operate this service and keep time although initially it was 6 -7 coaches.

An awful long way and I bet it was bouncing and rattling like mad (but they are a fab engines)

[Downendian]

Showing my ignorance here, but what coaching stock would have been used with the 1Ps on the S&D Highbridge branch in the 1950s?

Neil

[phil_sutters]

Showing my ignorance here, but what coaching stock would have been used with the 1Ps on the S&D Highbridge branch in the 1950s?

Neil

I am no expert, but from a quick look at the Middleton Burnham to Evercreech volume, most at that time seem to be LMS non-corridor stock, with a few panelled ones, including the one involved in the accident, when 3F no.76 ended its career in a rhine near Shapwick. There were push & pull coaches employed on the Wells & Bridgwater branches, but the branches closed in 1951/2. As time went by a variety of WR coaches were used, but by then the 0-4-4Ts were on their way out.

[coachmann]

On 12th August 58047 was hauling 4 ex.LMS non-corridors. Period III Compo, Period II brake third, Period I brake third and a Period I all third. This loco retained Salter safety valves and round top firebox. (Hornby and Comet)

 

On 30th August 1952 the 0-4-4T 58051 was working the 4.48pm to Highbridge. Train formed of a LMS Period I panelled non-corridor third and a LMS Period III non-corridor brake third. Comet & Hornby)

 

16th July 1955 58086 with thee Period II non-corridors : Brake third, Lavatory composite and all-third.. There may be something else tagged on the back (Horsebox?) (Comet and Dapol)

 

16th July, lavatory composite coach leading but remainder of train hidden. (Dapol)

 

25th Ap[ril 1955 seen wth LMS non-corridor stock. Period I brake third (lower panelling removed) and Period III all-third. (Comet and Hornby)

 

9th May 1955 hauling LMS  non-corridor stock : Period I brake third (rainstrips removed from roof) and Period III composite. (Comet and Hornby)

 

25th April 1955 : two LMS Preriod III non-corridors : Brake third and Composite. (Hornby)

 

(Pictures in Ivo Peters S&DJR Vol I 1950-54).

Edited January 18, 2017 by coachmann

[Co-tr-Paul]

Does anyone have a fixed(ish) price yet? Many websites are saying TBA still.... .