Bachmann Midland 1P 0-4-4T

[Compound2632]

I'm not at all sure that Johnson cared too much about maintenance issues and I suspect that he was a bit of a martinet so people wouldn't tell him if things could be improved. Your job might depend on keeping quiet.

 

Johnson was quite happy to accept that about 25% of the locomotive stock would be in works or waiting to go in the works. If there was a loco shortage he just ordered more rather than improve throughput at Derby or change the designs so they needed less maintenance! Deeley was a breath of fresh air at Derby, probably too fresh for the inward looking MR. He and Kirtley were by far the best mechanical engineers the railway had but then there weren't many; Kirtley, Johnson, Deeley and Fowler.

 

I think your statements about the proportion of locomotives in the works needs to be justified by some evidence. Is this (a) true and (b), whatever the figure, is it any different to the practice of any other company in the last quarter of the nineteenth century?

 

As to Johnson's character, I suspect that all locomotive superintendents at the time appear to be martinets on occasion - they were managing exceptionally large and complex organisations with the aid of a very small staff by today's standards, in an era when the only available model to follow was the military. There's plenty of evidence that Johnson got on very well with his peers, with career long friendships going back to his days with Charles Bayer and on the Edinburgh & Glasgow with Dugald Drummond and William Stroudley - his son married Drummond's daughter.

 

As an engineer he was by no means purely concerned with aesthetics. He was an early adopter of piston valves, thanks to his friendship with W. M. Smith; one might say that their use on the 115 Class singles and 60 Class 4-4-0s was actually to the detriment of appearance compared to the preceding slide-vale engines - those heavy front-end frames. Indeed, when he adopted the Belpaire boiler, he was accused of seriously spoiling the look of his engines, though to modern eyes they have a certain belle epoque grandeur.  

 

Saying anything negative about that nice Mr Johnson is a mortal sin. He designed beautiful engines and their smokebox doors may not have been perfect but his locos lasted until the 1960s, albeit with a lot of aesthetic damage from Deeley, Fowler and to a lesser extent Stanier. If you read the memoirs of loco men such as Terry Essery they were good engines. Part of the reason they spent so long in the works was the paint shop needed a lot of time to produce that wonderful finish.

 

To be fair, the engines Terry Essery fired had very little of Johnson about them - the 3Fs may mostly have had the frames and motion from Johnson's standard goods engines but that's as far as it goes.

[John_Miles]

Photograph clearly comfirms that whilst the original Johnson front end on non-reboilered locomotives did survive until the grouping on one or two locomotives, by and large its replacement by the Deeley 'dogs' pattern had taken place by 1917. Thus the Midland had a changed 'face' even before it entered the LMS. Metal corrosion leading to a failure to be airtight is probably the reason. 'Aesthetic damage' counts for nothing when a locomotives efficiency is affected. Similar doors held by perimeter catches appeared on the SE&CR and Southern.  I havent studied L&Y locos, but similar doors may have started to replace original doors before the grouping.

 

In engineering and practical terms you are right but railway modelling is for many about nostalgia. I was brought up in north Derbyshire and so came to like 2Ps, 3Fs and 4Fs as well as Stanier's engines but then when I was about 11, my dad bought me Hamilton Ellis's book on the Midland and my eyes were opened. Midland engines had at one time been stunningly beautiful works of art and forever after I have been a fan of what Johnson achieved.

 

Johnsons's smokebox doors disappeared well before 1917 if the photographic record is to be believed. One of the first things to happen is that dogs were added to the bottom of Johnson's smokebox doors - there is for instance a photograph of an 0-4-4T at Colbren which is so fitted. The date of the image is around 1906. I would guess that all Johnson smokebox doors had gone by 1910 - with the possible exception of the 0-4-0Ts.

[Compound2632]

According to Stephen Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Volume 1 General Survey (Irwell Press, 2000) p. 116, the instruction to fit the new design of smokebox door to small-boilered engines was issued on 14 Nov 1905; "the work was pushed ahead rapidly, so that very few photographs are known of engines carrying 1907 numbers with other than the new standard doors". These were the flat type per the photo Bachmann are using; it was found that the lower pressure in the smokebox caused the doors to be pressed in, causing air leaks round the edge, so the design was changed in 1909-10 to the dished type that became an LMS standard.

[tractionman]

Just looking at the latest Bachmann availability inf (https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/availability/), updated Dec 14th, and I see now the 1P is 'on order', thus

 

"31-740 Midland Railway 1532 Class 0-4-4 1273 Midland Railway Crimson TBA Branchline Locomotives OO On Order"

 

I'm sure last time I looked it was TBA, so perhaps 'on order' suggests some progress has been made...?

 

all the best,

 

Keith

Edited December 19, 2018 by tractionman

[NHY 581]

Would be rather nice to see a few examples of the 1P in next week's announcements..

 

 

Here's hoping.

 

 

Rob.

[MikeHunter]

My most eagerly awaited new Bachmann model for a long time. Always high on my wishlist. A major gap for LMS modellers. Jut need a push pull set to run with it, (and a push pull fitted version of the loco).

[Norton Wood]

Four of these lovely little 0-4-4T were transferred onto the Midland & Great Northern Joint for a time. So we are very much looking forward to them

[NHY 581]

One lives in hope of a S&DJR Prussian blue jobbie........

 

 

Rob.

[ianwales]

Jut need a push pull set to run with it, (and a push pull fitted version of the loco).

 

The LMS one, 31-741 No 1303 is push Pull Fitted

 

Ian

[MikeHunter]

The LMS one, 31-741 No 1303 is push Pull Fitted

 

Ian

 

 

Which is the one I'll be buying! Hadn't spotted that. So yes please Bachmann, a push-pull set to go with it would be amazing.

[Jub45565]

Which is the one I'll be buying! Hadn't spotted that. So yes please Bachmann, a push-pull set to go with it would be amazing.

 

The Hornby none gangwayed stock cover the right diagrams to convert for LMS PIII push pull fitted stock.  Comet, 5522 and 247 have all done ends - I think the Comet one is the only one available new currently.  A Midland D1246 would be amazing, but as far as I am aware there isn't even a kit.

 

Alan Gibson also do push pull apparatus, should peoples preferred combinations not be available off the shelf.

[GWR8700]

Does anyone know where I can get a Johnson style smokebox door and appropriate chimney for the Midland 1P?  Bachmann have tooled for Deeley chimney and door which I would like to replace when it is released.

Not sure if Bachmann have tooled for those options in future

Edited January 24, 2019 by GWR8700

[Compound2632]

'Fraid not, chaps... The Bachmann model will represent a member of the 1532 Class, the largest group of Johnson 0-4-4Ts, numbering 115 engines built 1881-1893 (if one includes the 1823 and 1833 Classes, which differed chiefly in invisible things: original cylinder diameter and boiler pressure). But:

 

Four of these lovely little 0-4-4T were transferred onto the Midland & Great Northern Joint for a time. So we are very much looking forward to them

 

The three engines loaned to the M&GN in exchange for four of their 4-4-0Ts were Nos 142-144 (1907 Nos. 1232-1234), members of the 6 Class of 1875, which were significantly different in leading dimensions - the smaller capacity of the side tanks makes them noticeably less tall; the bogie wheelbase is 5'0" rather than 5'6", etc. 

 

One lives in hope of a S&DJR Prussian blue jobbie........

 

Likewise the engines built for the S&DJR, the "Avonsides", were also significantly different from the 1532 Class, being closer to the 6 Class - they were the next 5'3" Johnson 0-4-4Ts built, in 1877 - though with shorter fireboxes and other detail differences - including lengthening the bogie wheelbase to 5'6"; experience with members of the larger-wheeled 1532 Class engines and one of the 6 Class on hire to the S&DJR had shown that the longer bogie wheelbase gave steadier running.

 

A solitary member of the 1532 Class, 1907 No. 1305, was sold to the S&DJR in 1921, becoming S&DJR No. 54, reverting to its original number on the absorption of the S&DJR locomotive stock by the LMS in 1930 but being withdrawn soon after. It replaced the previous No. 54, an "Avonside" (in fact Vulcan) 0-4-4T that was withdrawn in 1920 with cracked frames.  This engine did receive the blue livery. In the interview with the Bachmann team that Andy York posted a year ago, they acknowledged that they were aware of the unsuitability of their model for the Avonsides but also that they were aware of No. 54. Perhaps the S&DJR  Trust should commission it as a special edition?

 

Refs:

D. Bradley & D. Milton, Somerset and Dorset Locomotive History (David & Charles, 1973)

R.J. Essery & D. Jenkinson, An Illustrated Review of Midland Locomotives, Vol. 3 (Wild Swan, 1988)

S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002)

[Norton Wood]

'Fraid not, chaps... The Bachmann model will represent a member of the 1532 Class, the largest group of Johnson 0-4-4Ts, numbering 115 engines built 1881-1893 (if one includes the 1823 and 1833 Classes, which differed chiefly in invisible things: original cylinder diameter and boiler pressure). But:

 

 

The three engines loaned to the M&GN in exchange for four of their 4-4-0Ts were Nos 142-144 (1907 Nos. 1232-1234), members of the 6 Class of 1875, which were significantly different in leading dimensions - the smaller capacity of the side tanks makes them noticeably less tall; the bogie wheelbase is 5'0" rather than 5'6", etc. 

 

 

Likewise the engines built for the S&DJR, the "Avonsides", were also significantly different from the 1532 Class, being closer to the 6 Class - they were the next 5'3" Johnson 0-4-4Ts built, in 1877 - though with shorter fireboxes and other detail differences - including lengthening the bogie wheelbase to 5'6"; experience with members of the larger-wheeled 1532 Class engines and one of the 6 Class on hire to the S&DJR had shown that the longer bogie wheelbase gave steadier running.

 

A solitary member of the 1532 Class, 1907 No. 1305, was sold to the S&DJR in 1921, becoming S&DJR No. 54, reverting to its original number on the absorption of the S&DJR locomotive stock by the LMS in 1930 but being withdrawn soon after. It replaced the previous No. 54, an "Avonside" (in fact Vulcan) 0-4-4T that was withdrawn in 1920 with cracked frames.  This engine did receive the blue livery. In the interview with the Bachmann team that Andy York posted a year ago, they acknowledged that they were aware of the unsuitability of their model for the Avonsides but also that they were aware of No. 54. Perhaps the S&DJR  Trust should commission it as a special edition?

 

Refs:

D. Bradley & D. Milton, Somerset and Dorset Locomotive History (David & Charles, 1973)

R.J. Essery & D. Jenkinson, An Illustrated Review of Midland Locomotives, Vol. 3 (Wild Swan, 1988)

S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002)

 

 

Ah that's a great shame, well maybe my colleagues were a little off with there information. Is  "R.J. Essery & D. Jenkinson, An Illustrated Review of Midland Locomotives, Vol. 3 (Wild Swan, 1988)" where you got your information from?

[NHY 581]

'Fraid not, chaps... The Bachmann model will represent a member of the 1532 Class, the largest group of Johnson 0-4-4Ts, numbering 115 engines built 1881-1893 (if one includes the 1823 and 1833 Classes, which differed chiefly in invisible things: original cylinder diameter and boiler pressure). But:

 

 

The three engines loaned to the M&GN in exchange for four of their 4-4-0Ts were Nos 142-144 (1907 Nos. 1232-1234), members of the 6 Class of 1875, which were significantly different in leading dimensions - the smaller capacity of the side tanks makes them noticeably less tall; the bogie wheelbase is 5'0" rather than 5'6", etc. 

 

 

Likewise the engines built for the S&DJR, the "Avonsides", were also significantly different from the 1532 Class, being closer to the 6 Class - they were the next 5'3" Johnson 0-4-4Ts built, in 1877 - though with shorter fireboxes and other detail differences - including lengthening the bogie wheelbase to 5'6"; experience with members of the larger-wheeled 1532 Class engines and one of the 6 Class on hire to the S&DJR had shown that the longer bogie wheelbase gave steadier running.

 

A solitary member of the 1532 Class, 1907 No. 1305, was sold to the S&DJR in 1921, becoming S&DJR No. 54, reverting to its original number on the absorption of the S&DJR locomotive stock by the LMS in 1930 but being withdrawn soon after. It replaced the previous No. 54, an "Avonside" (in fact Vulcan) 0-4-4T that was withdrawn in 1920 with cracked frames.  This engine did receive the blue livery. In the interview with the Bachmann team that Andy York posted a year ago, they acknowledged that they were aware of the unsuitability of their model for the Avonsides but also that they were aware of No. 54. Perhaps the S&DJR  Trust should commission it as a special edition?

 

Refs:

D. Bradley & D. Milton, Somerset and Dorset Locomotive History (David & Charles, 1973)

R.J. Essery & D. Jenkinson, An Illustrated Review of Midland Locomotives, Vol. 3 (Wild Swan, 1988)

S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002)

 

54 was what I had in mind. Bachmann could even do a hybrid version in Midland Red but lettered and numbered as SDJR 54 as delivered.

 

 

Rob.

[sharris]

The old Slaters six-wheelers (although I would suggest these are not 'beginners' kits and if you can still get complete kits from Coopercraft).

 

Plenty has been written about why you shouldn't buy from the Coopercraft mail-order site, and I've not seen him at exhibitions for a couple of years, but if he does turn up with a stand the best you'll do is separately buying sides, ends, roofs, floors (the ones I bought turned out to be twisted, so I ended up making my own from plasticard) and springs+axleboxes - which is what I've done to make a rake of 5 - of course you'll also need buffers, hoses, etc. which Wizard will be happy to sell you. Brassmasters do a Cleminson underframe which can be set to the appropriate wheelbase (cleverly, it can be set to almost any wheelbase!). Internally I've filled mine with Ratio seats and plasticard partitions. 

[Jub45565]

Stevenson Carriages does kits for MR Push-pull coaches. You can find the email address on this thread here. I contacted them in March last year and was sent the price list. The kits also appear on ebay now and then.

Is that one in their list? I think I have looked through it at an exhibition, and only saw the D552 version which was scrapped too early to be of interest. The D1246 lingered on into 1959.

[Compound2632]

Ah that's a great shame, well maybe my colleagues were a little off with there information. Is  "R.J. Essery & D. Jenkinson, An Illustrated Review of Midland Locomotives, Vol. 3 (Wild Swan, 1988)" where you got your information from?

 

The information in my post is compiled with reference to all three cited works, of which Summerson is the most detailed and, I would say, authoritative.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Compound2632

[No Decorum]

'Fraid not, chaps... The Bachmann model will represent a member of the 1532 Class, the largest group of Johnson 0-4-4Ts, numbering 115 engines built 1881-1893 (if one includes the 1823 and 1833 Classes, which differed chiefly in invisible things: original cylinder diameter and boiler pressure). But:

 

 

The three engines loaned to the M&GN in exchange for four of their 4-4-0Ts were Nos 142-144 (1907 Nos. 1232-1234), members of the 6 Class of 1875, which were significantly different in leading dimensions - the smaller capacity of the side tanks makes them noticeably less tall; the bogie wheelbase is 5'0" rather than 5'6", etc. 

 

 

Likewise the engines built for the S&DJR, the "Avonsides", were also significantly different from the 1532 Class, being closer to the 6 Class - they were the next 5'3" Johnson 0-4-4Ts built, in 1877 - though with shorter fireboxes and other detail differences - including lengthening the bogie wheelbase to 5'6"; experience with members of the larger-wheeled 1532 Class engines and one of the 6 Class on hire to the S&DJR had shown that the longer bogie wheelbase gave steadier running.

 

A solitary member of the 1532 Class, 1907 No. 1305, was sold to the S&DJR in 1921, becoming S&DJR No. 54, reverting to its original number on the absorption of the S&DJR locomotive stock by the LMS in 1930 but being withdrawn soon after. It replaced the previous No. 54, an "Avonside" (in fact Vulcan) 0-4-4T that was withdrawn in 1920 with cracked frames.  This engine did receive the blue livery. In the interview with the Bachmann team that Andy York posted a year ago, they acknowledged that they were aware of the unsuitability of their model for the Avonsides but also that they were aware of No. 54. Perhaps the S&DJR  Trust should commission it as a special edition?

 

Refs:

D. Bradley & D. Milton, Somerset and Dorset Locomotive History (David & Charles, 1973)

R.J. Essery & D. Jenkinson, An Illustrated Review of Midland Locomotives, Vol. 3 (Wild Swan, 1988)

S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002)

 

If Bachmann is aware of No. 54 and it did receive S&DJR blue, it could well turn up as a Collectors’ Club model at about the time the main range models appear. I’d like one and from the sound of things, I wouldn’t be the only one.

[Jub45565]

On 1/24/2019 at 10:25 PM, Jub45565 said:

Is that one in their list? I think I have looked through it at an exhibition, and only saw the D552 version which was scrapped too early to be of interest. The D1246 lingered on into 1959.

 

I saw Stevenson's/Millholme today at Stafford, and to correct the above it isnt the D552 they do.  It is D502 driving brake third, and D526 driving brake comp.  According to Midland Record No 5 they were withdrawn either c1923 or c1930.

 

D552s and D551s can be converted from Ratio kits though, and these did last until the mid-late 50s.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Although not original MR carriages, various LNWR Motor Divers/Driving Trailers (take your pick) lasted into LMS and even BR days, notably the M58 and M71 Diagrams. These are among the four different LNWR Driving Trailer kits available from London Road Models, for those who are willing to build their own models. Late LMS or BR livery would be fairly straightforward.

[Compound2632]

20 hours ago, Jub45565 said:

 

I saw Stevenson's/Millholme today at Stafford, and to correct the above it isnt the D552 they do.  It is D502 driving brake third, and D526 driving brake comp.  According to Midland Record No 5 they were withdrawn either c1923 or c1930.

 

D552s and D551s can be converted from Ratio kits though, and these did last until the mid-late 50s.

 

Apropos motor train carriages, see also here.

[Flying Pig]

On 04/02/2019 at 17:56, Compound2632 said:

 

Apropos motor train carriages, see also here.

 

And also here.

[Compound2632]

Thanks - I'd forgotten that thread. More detail there on the 1930s conversions from Bain suburban carriages.

[it's-er]

It will be lovely to see the early production prototype.  There is no sign of it yet on Bachmann's news page, nor on the relevant product pages. 

 

Has anyone seen it yet, and got a photograph or two to share with us?

 

John Storey