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LMS pre-Grouping driving trailers to ID


Flying Pig

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With the announcement of Bachmann's Midland 1P, I went looking for pictures of push pull trains featuring the class. Mostly the driving trailers pictured are clearly LMS PIII conversions, but I found some interesting pre-Grouping types and wondered if anyone could identify them.

 

The first is in Dave Ford's photo of 1324 on the Southwell Paddy in this post. Apologies if the carriage has been identified in that thread - I read through but couldn't find any reference.

 

Secondly, having already found a picture of the "Cudworth Flyer" with the expected Belpaire 0-4-4t and PIII stock, I was pleasantly surprised to see this train on Oaks Viaduct with much older stock clearly several years into Nationalisation and powered by a Radial tank to boot.

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The coaches in the Oaks Viaduct photo look like Midland to me as modelled by Ratio. One is a seven compartment composite like the Ratio all first but some built as composites had thicker bulkheads to reduce the size of the third class compartments to give a 3311133 configuration. The other coach is a four compartment brake third.

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The coaches in the Oaks Viaduct photo look like Midland to me as modelled by Ratio. One is a seven compartment composite like the Ratio all first but some built as composites had thicker bulkheads to reduce the size of the third class compartments to give a 3311133 configuration. The other coach is a four compartment brake third.

Yes, these are 'Ratio' Bains as converted to PP.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

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The coaches in the Oaks Viaduct photo look like Midland to me as modelled by Ratio. One is a seven compartment composite like the Ratio all first but some built as composites had thicker bulkheads to reduce the size of the third class compartments to give a 3311133 configuration. The other coach is a four compartment brake third.

 

According to Lacy & Dow, Midland Carriages Vol 2, only a very few of the Bain 48' arc roof suburban carriages were modified for push-pull operation ('motor-fitted' in LMS-speak); the known examples being from the carriages built for the Birmingham area in 1907/8 - exactly the prototypes of the Ratio kits: "In 1930-1 composites Nos. 3323 and 3344 and brake-third No. 653 were fitted for motor train operation; No. 3323 and 653 worked thus on the Barnsley branch and No. 3344 on the Oxenhope branch with Nos. 1113 and 1071" (I believe the latter two may have been older Clayton 43' or 45' arc-roof carriages). Brake-third No. 653 was one of the dozen 4-compartment vehicles to D552 (Ratio kit 714) while the composites were to D551 which were externally identical to the full firsts to D481 (Ratio kit 711); internally, they had three compartments at one end reduced to the standard third-class width by additional partitions. If some of the first class compartments were later downgraded, I doubt they would have been modified in the same way. These carriages came from 4-coach sets that originally worked from Birmingham down the Gloucester Loop Line via Redditch and Evesham to Ashchurch. According to Lacy & Dow (Appendix 30), in the 1933 renumbering, 653 became 22875 then a couple of years later 24463 while 3323 became 17995. The only snag with identifying these two coaches with the ones in the Oakes Viaduct photo is that Lacy & Dow give their withdrawal date as March 1947...

 

In Midland days (1907), some 0-4-4T and 0-6-0T engines were motor fitted and sandwiched between modified Clayton arc-roof D502 43' brake thirds and D526 45' composites; seven of each making seven trains used on Bedford-Hitchin, Bedford-Northampton, Sheffield-Doncaster and Wakefield-Sandal & Walton services. Engines included 0-4-4Ts Nos. 1242 and 1257 and 0-6-0T No. 1632. Lacey & Dow thought these lasted until the 1920s. 

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In Midland days (1907), some 0-4-4T and 0-6-0T engines were motor fitted and sandwiched between modified Clayton arc-roof D502 43' brake thirds and D526 45' composites; seven of each making seven trains used on Bedford-Hitchin, Bedford-Northampton, Sheffield-Doncaster and Wakefield-Sandal & Walton services. Engines included 0-4-4Ts Nos. 1242 and 1257 and 0-6-0T No. 1632. Lacey & Dow thought these lasted until the 1920s. 

 

You could always cut-and-shut some Ratio coach sides to make something nearer to those coaches, A few mods to the underframe and some 8ft bogies and away you go.

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Many thanks for your detailed reply, Compound2632. Do you know of any photos of the driving end of the converted D552 brake third? I can only find LMS standards and LNWR vehicles (quite a few of these being coachmann's models) online and the useful photo I thought I had in a book turns out not to be.

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You could always cut-and-shut some Ratio coach sides to make something nearer to those coaches, A few mods to the underframe and some 8ft bogies and away you go.

 

Nooooo! Cringe-making! (You will have to excuse me, I'm rather passionate on the subject of Midland carriages.) The Bain 48' carriages are unsuitable for conversion to Clayton-era arc roof carriages: the big difference is that the depth of the waist and eaves panels are quite different - significantly deeper on the Bain carriages; next up, the compartment widths are different: both the firsts and thirds are rather shorter in the Bain carriages; then the Bain carriages are 8'6" wide whereas the Clayton carriages are narrower, 8'0" - that's 2 mm in 4 mm scale. Add to that shallower solebars and different trussing arrangements, plus of course 8'0" bogies. In fact I think only the Ratio 10' bogies are really candidates for conversion as the bogies used on the earlier Bain carriages (up to the Birmingham stock of 1907/8) are the Clayton design - which is why Ratio could use the same underframe moulding for both the Bain arc-roof and Clayton square-panelled clerestory carriages. (Shame it's actually 1 mm too short!) But why go to all this faff when there are kits available (see 51L/Wizard)? The kit for the 43' brake third even includes alternative parts for the motor fitted version (essentially two large widows in the brake end) - not clear if the 45' brake compo kit does too. 

 

That said, I did once upon a time have a plan to build Clayton arc-roof bogie coaches from Slater's kits for the 6-wheelers, but then those became unavailable. If you could find some, this could be a viable alternative to etched brass but there would still be quite a lot of scratch-building (underframe) plus the bogies. The brake third would be straightforward from a 6-wheel brake third and third, but the brake compo would need rather more cut-and-shutting. Clayton's compartment dimensions were highly standardised with only some metropolitan area stock deviating from 6' between partitions for third class and 7'6" for first (add 1 1/4" for the partition thickness).

 

Many thanks for your detailed reply, Compound2632. Do you know of any photos of the driving end of the converted D552 brake third? I can only find LMS standards and LNWR vehicles (quite a few of these being coachmann's models) online and the useful photo I thought I had in a book turns out not to be.

 

I don't think I do - you have to remember that it appears to have been a solitary conversion, operating in a relatively poor part of the country, and gone before the end of post-war austerity. I would guess that the other LMS conversions (either of LMS-built or ex-LNWR vehicles) would be a reasonable guide. I've uttered my heresy before: always model a prototype that didn't get photographed, that way no-one can prove you've got it wrong.

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The MR D552 driving trailer brake third was in my RTR brass range in 2005 together with a third and a compo. The driving end was unpanelled and had three windows with external bolections plus the usual hoods above each window. The connections for bell code and lighting were duplicated both sides and the autovac pipe and brake pipes were tall ones. Bogies were 8' lightweight type and the one at the driving end retained full length stepboards to the end. I have searched my third PC since the year 2000 for photos but they have been lost. Not surprising when I lost every picture I took in the 2015!

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You could always cut-and-shut some Ratio coach sides to make something nearer to those coaches, A few mods to the underframe and some 8ft bogies and away you go.

 

Nooooo! Cringe-making! (You will have to excuse me, I'm rather passionate on the subject of Midland carriages.) The Bain 48' carriages are unsuitable for conversion to Clayton-era arc roof carriages: the big difference is that the depth of the waist and eaves panels are quite different - significantly deeper on the Bain carriages; next up, the compartment widths are different: both the firsts and thirds are rather shorter in the Bain carriages; then the Bain carriages are 8'6" wide whereas the Clayton carriages are narrower, 8'0" - that's 2 mm in 4 mm scale. Add to that shallower solebars and different trussing arrangements, plus of course 8'0" bogies. In fact I think only the Ratio 10' bogies are really candidates for conversion as the bogies used on the earlier Bain carriages (up to the Birmingham stock of 1907/8) are the Clayton design - which is why Ratio could use the same underframe moulding for both the Bain arc-roof and Clayton square-panelled clerestory carriages. (Shame it's actually 1 mm too short!) But why go to all this faff when there are kits available (see 51L/Wizard)? The kit for the 43' brake third even includes alternative parts for the motor fitted version (essentially two large widows in the brake end) - not clear if the 45' brake compo kit does too. 

 

That said, I did once upon a time have a plan to build Clayton arc-roof bogie coaches from Slater's kits for the 6-wheelers, but then those became unavailable. If you could find some, this could be a viable alternative to etched brass but there would still be quite a lot of scratch-building (underframe) plus the bogies. The brake third would be straightforward from a 6-wheel brake third and third, but the brake compo would need rather more cut-and-shutting. Clayton's compartment dimensions were highly standardised with only some metropolitan area stock deviating from 6' between partitions for third class and 7'6" for first (add 1 1/4" for the partition thickness).

 

 

I don't think I do - you have to remember that it appears to have been a solitary conversion, operating in a relatively poor part of the country, and gone before the end of post-war austerity. I would guess that the other LMS conversions (either of LMS-built or ex-LNWR vehicles) would be a reasonable guide. I've uttered my heresy before: always model a prototype that didn't get photographed, that way no-one can prove you've got it wrong.

 

Sorry 2632, didn't want to give you apoplexy. I was just contemplating a representation.

 

You may be able to get some ex Slater's six-wheel coach sides from Coopercraft if you catch him at a exhibition and has any with him but I am not sure if he can supply complete kits or not. I have recently been building five of them which have been 'in stock' for several years and they are away for painting ATM - definitely not kits for beginners!

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Sorry 2632, didn't want to give you apoplexy. I was just contemplating a representation.

 

You may be able to get some ex Slater's six-wheel coach sides from Coopercraft if you catch him at a exhibition and has any with him but I am not sure if he can supply complete kits or not. I have recently been building five of them which have been 'in stock' for several years and they are away for painting ATM - definitely not kits for beginners!

 

Thanks, I'm just emerging from therapy...

 

I cleaned out all the six-wheeler components left on the Coopercraft stand on the Sunday afternoon at ExpoEM a couple of years ago - sides, ends, solebar mouldings; enough for three or four carriages. I inferred from a remark made on the long-running Coopercraft thread that there was some dispute with Slaters that related to the etched and lost wax components...

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I inferred from a remark made on the long-running Coopercraft thread that there was some dispute with Slaters that related to the etched and lost wax components...

 

That's sad. I have had some of the six-wheel chassis etchings from Coopercraft but it's pity about the lost wax components as they are actually very nice castings.

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That's sad. I have had some of the six-wheel chassis etchings from Coopercraft but it's pity about the lost wax components as they are actually very nice castings.

 

Slater's still offer the door handles and grab irons while 51L/Wizard do the lamps - look like lost wax from the photo on their website - and also the BB W-irons. 

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According to Lacy & Dow, Midland Carriages Vol 2, only a very few of the Bain 48' arc roof suburban carriages were modified for push-pull operation ('motor-fitted' in LMS-speak); the known examples being from the carriages built for the Birmingham area in 1907/8 - exactly the prototypes of the Ratio kits: "In 1930-1 composites Nos. 3323 and 3344 and brake-third No. 653 were fitted for motor train operation; No. 3323 and 653 worked thus on the Barnsley branch and No. 3344 on the Oxenhope branch with Nos. 1113 and 1071" (I believe the latter two may have been older Clayton 43' or 45' arc-roof carriages). Brake-third No. 653 was one of the dozen 4-compartment vehicles to D552 (Ratio kit 714) while the composites were to D551 which were externally identical to the full firsts to D481 (Ratio kit 711); internally, they had three compartments at one end reduced to the standard third-class width by additional partitions. If some of the first class compartments were later downgraded, I doubt they would have been modified in the same way. These carriages came from 4-coach sets that originally worked from Birmingham down the Gloucester Loop Line via Redditch and Evesham to Ashchurch. According to Lacy & Dow (Appendix 30), in the 1933 renumbering, 653 became 22875 then a couple of years later 24463 while 3323 became 17995. The only snag with identifying these two coaches with the ones in the Oakes Viaduct photo is that Lacy & Dow give their withdrawal date as March 1947...

 

In Midland days (1907), some 0-4-4T and 0-6-0T engines were motor fitted and sandwiched between modified Clayton arc-roof D502 43' brake thirds and D526 45' composites; seven of each making seven trains used on Bedford-Hitchin, Bedford-Northampton, Sheffield-Doncaster and Wakefield-Sandal & Walton services. Engines included 0-4-4Ts Nos. 1242 and 1257 and 0-6-0T No. 1632. Lacey & Dow thought these lasted until the 1920s. 

 

Only two of the motor conversions of Bain carriages were from the Birmingham series, LMS 24463 (BT Driving) and 17995 (Composite). The remainder (24491/17998 and 24492/17341) were from the Sheffield series. The panel heights were different for the two series as were the bogies (10ft for the Birmingham vehicles, 8ft for the Sheffield ones). The Birmingham ones were withdrawn in 1947 as stated, the other pairs in 2/58 and 1/56 respectively. There were three other Bain arc roof carriages (17996, 17997 and 15852) included in two motor sets which both had D1246 elliptical roof Driving trailers.

 

As far as I know the Clayton 43 and 45 foot conversions had gone by the mid 1920s.

 

Back in mid 1995 I wrote to Bob Essery to correct some information he had published in the Preview Issue of Midland Record; the phone rang a couple of nights later and I found myself being asked to write an article on Midland Carriages Converted for Motor Operation - Bob can be very persuasive! This duly appeared in Midland Record No 5 if anyone is interested and I did a similar exercise with LMS standard motor fitted stock which appeared in LMS Journal No 12.

 

The motor version(s) of the forthcoming Bachmann 0-4-4T will need some decent coaches to go with them - I would guess that LMS standard stock would be the easier option.

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Only two of the motor conversions of Bain carriages were from the Birmingham series, LMS 24463 (BT Driving) and 17995 (Composite). The remainder (24491/17998 and 24492/17341) were from the Sheffield series. The panel heights were different for the two series as were the bogies (10ft for the Birmingham vehicles, 8ft for the Sheffield ones). The Birmingham ones were withdrawn in 1947 as stated, the other pairs in 2/58 and 1/56 respectively. There were three other Bain arc roof carriages (17996, 17997 and 15852) included in two motor sets which both had D1246 elliptical roof Driving trailers.

 

As far as I know the Clayton 43 and 45 foot conversions had gone by the mid 1920s.

 

Back in mid 1995 I wrote to Bob Essery to correct some information he had published in the Preview Issue of Midland Record; the phone rang a couple of nights later and I found myself being asked to write an article on Midland Carriages Converted for Motor Operation - Bob can be very persuasive! This duly appeared in Midland Record No 5 if anyone is interested and I did a similar exercise with LMS standard motor fitted stock which appeared in LMS Journal No 12.

 

The motor version(s) of the forthcoming Bachmann 0-4-4T will need some decent coaches to go with them - I would guess that LMS standard stock would be the easier option.

 

I have complete runs of Midland Record and LMS Journal and hence your articles! But I confess I'd forgotten them and so my screed was based only on Lacy & Dow - their appendix table on the Sheffield district carriages doesn't include the same level of detail as for the Birmingham carriages. I bow to your superior knowledge and am grateful for the correction - it's good to get accurate information on here.

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Further to my post #11, I have just found images on my computer that I thought had been lost. The first is the MR D552 brake third conversion to driving trailer. I had much larger oval bufferheads in BR days....

 

post-6680-0-32219300-1485892420.jpg

 

The Sheffield District D551 composite....

post-6680-0-73651100-1485892418.jpg

 

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Further to my post #11, I have just found images on my computer that I thought had been lost. The first is the MR D552 brake third conversion to driving trailer. I had much larger oval bufferheads in BR days....

 

attachicon.gifWEB MR Bain push pull.jpg

 

The Sheffield District D551 composite....

attachicon.gifWEB MR Bain compo.jpg

 

Beautiful. But from the numbers, these are the ex-Birmingham District pair but with 8ft bogies and underframe trussing of the corresponding pattern - pair of queenposts for 8ft bogies, kingpost with 10ft bogies for the Manchester and Birmingham District carriages as built. Presumably there is good photographic evidence for the configuration you've modelled?

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