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Milk traffic over the S&C


TravisM
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I was looking at a book earlier today and I noticed that there was a picture from the mid 60's of a diary at Appleby which was to rail connected and if I wasn't mistaken, several 6 wheel milk tank wagons in sidings next the diary.  I was wondering when this all finished and what was the level of the traffic?

 

As I model in N gauge, would the Dapol 6 wheel tankers be a suitable model and what livery would they be in?

 

Julian Sprott

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  • 4 years later...

Sorry to resurrect this thread, I must have missed it 4 years ago. :jester:

 

As far as I have been able to make out, the mid-60s were towards the end of milk traffic on the S&C. In 1964, the MMB and BR signed the "Western Agreement". This concentrated fresh milk flows into London from South Wales and the West Country. Long established milk trains from places like Cumbria, East Anglia and North Staffordshire were wound up over the following few years.

 

Appleby may have been an exception. Some dairies retained their rail links to receive incoming milk for processing. Excess summer production would be turned into cheese, powdered milk, butter etc. There was a regular flow from Swindon to Carlisle of this excess production every summer in the late 70s with 1980 being the final year of operation. I don't know exactly which dairies were involved but Appleby and Aspatria were both big producers of cheese so may have continued to receive milk at this time rather than dispatching it.

 

As for livery, Appleby was an Express Dairy facility so originally would have had their dark blue milk tankers with white lettering which Dapol offer in N Gauge. By the 60s, most milk tanks had been refurbished. This involved replacing the original cork insulation with mineral wool and the steel cladding with aluminium. This is why most milk tanks in BR days appeared dull silver. The aluminium was often left unpainted since it didn't rust. Dapol also offer this livery and it would have been in the majority by the mid 1960s. However I have seen shots of tankers still wearing tatty Express dark blue in 1965 so you could justifiably mix and match.

 

HMRS has a couple of shots of Express Dairies tanks in the 60s to give you an idea.

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/express-dairy-acton-6-wheel-milk-tank-b3183-dia-o-64.html

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/express-dairy-acton-6-wheel-milk-tank-b3183-at-totnes-r3l-diag-o-64.html

 

dapol-2f-031-017-6-wheel-milk-tanker-exp

 

Dapol_2F-031-019.jpg

 

Just beware, Dapol also produce tankers in a light blue Express dairies livery with a "swoosh" E. I am pretty sure this is livery was only applied to their road tankers. I have never seen a photo of a rail tanker wearing it.

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On 12/06/2021 at 23:39, Karhedron said:

Sorry to resurrect this thread, I must have missed it 4 years ago. :jester:

 

As far as I have been able to make out, the mid-60s were towards the end of milk traffic on the S&C. In 1964, the MMB and BR signed the "Western Agreement". This concentrated fresh milk flows into London from South Wales and the West Country. Long established milk trains from places like Cumbria, East Anglia and North Staffordshire were wound up over the following few years.

 

Appleby may have been an exception. Some dairies retained their rail links to receive incoming milk for processing. Excess summer production would be turned into cheese, powdered milk, butter etc. There was a regular flow from Swindon to Carlisle of this excess production every summer in the late 70s with 1980 being the final year of operation. I don't know exactly which dairies were involved but Appleby and Aspatria were both big producers of cheese so may have continued to receive milk at this time rather than dispatching it.

 

As for livery, Appleby was an Express Dairy facility so originally would have had their dark blue milk tankers with white lettering which Dapol offer in N Gauge. By the 60s, most milk tanks had been refurbished. This involved replacing the original cork insulation with mineral wool and the steel cladding with aluminium. This is why most milk tanks in BR days appeared dull silver. The aluminium was often left unpainted since it didn't rust. Dapol also offer this livery and it would have been in the majority by the mid 1960s. However I have seen shots of tankers still wearing tatty Express dark blue in 1965 so you could justifiably mix and match.

 

HMRS has a couple of shots of Express Dairies tanks in the 60s to give you an idea.

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/express-dairy-acton-6-wheel-milk-tank-b3183-dia-o-64.html

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/express-dairy-acton-6-wheel-milk-tank-b3183-at-totnes-r3l-diag-o-64.html

 

dapol-2f-031-017-6-wheel-milk-tanker-exp

 

Dapol_2F-031-019.jpg

 

Just beware, Dapol also produce tankers in a light blue Express dairies livery with a "swoosh" E. I am pretty sure this is livery was only applied to their road tankers. I have never seen a photo of a rail tanker wearing it.


Would aluminium tankers be suitable for 1955?

 

This may seem like a daft question but would I be correct that the S&C milk trains would go on to Skipton and down the Aire Valley line towards Leeds?

 

Or did they go off at Hellifield?

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11 hours ago, Aire Head said:


Would aluminium tankers be suitable for 1955?

 

This may seem like a daft question but would I be correct that the S&C milk trains would go on to Skipton and down the Aire Valley line towards Leeds?

 

Or did they go off at Hellifield?

 

 

Express Dairies had definitely started introducing silver tanks by 1954 so they would be fine by 55.

 

The 1954 WTT shows the milk from the S&C running via Sheffield. The train left Carlisle at 17:47 and reached Appleby at 18:32. It then had 20 minutes to pick up tanks. The next stop shown is Sheffield at 23:51 but I am not sure which route it took. At Sheffield it picked up the tanks from the Express Dairy at Leyburn and the Cow and Gate dairy at Northallerton. Then the whole lot headed south, reaching Cricklewood at 04:10.

 

Curiously, the WTT shows the Sunday milk train running via Leeds. Perhaps this means the Weekday and Saturday trains did NOT run via Leeds.

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4 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

 

Express Dairies had definitely started introducing silver tanks by 1954 so they would be fine by 55.

 

The 1954 WTT shows the milk from the S&C running via Sheffield. The train left Carlisle at 17:47 and reached Appleby at 18:32. It then had 20 minutes to pick up tanks. The next stop shown is Sheffield at 23:51 but I am not sure which route it took. At Sheffield it picked up the tanks from the Express Dairy at Leyburn and the Cow and Gate dairy at Northallerton. Then the whole lot headed south, reaching Cricklewood at 04:10.

 

Curiously, the WTT shows the Sunday milk train running via Leeds. Perhaps this means the Weekday and Saturday trains did NOT run via Leeds.

Thank you for that in order to get to Sheffield it would have to go by the Aire Valley so that’s something else to add to the list.

 

Where we’re you able to find the Passenger WTT for the area as I have only been able to find a 1948 freight one and the only passenger timetable I can find if for the public and therefore doesn’t list Parcels, milk etc.

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The following might be of interest. It is a promotional film produced by the Express Dairy company in the mid 50s. It features a short sequence at the then-new Morden depot showing the ED shunter moving milk tanks about. The railway bit starts around 7:50.

 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-daily-round-the-story-of-milk-production-and-distribution-1954-online

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 13/07/2021 at 20:49, mac1960 said:

I did not realise the Milk traffic came south. I thought went North to Carlisle then south so interesting to find that out.

 

Carlisle certainly was a major concentration point for milk traffic heading south along the WCML. I only have the 1954 WTT to hand so it is possible that milk from Appleby did run via Carlise at other times. I know that milk train timetables did evolve somewhat over the years. One thing to consider is that Appleby was an Express Dairy and so milk from there would have been heading for Cricklewood and South Acton. This would have made it convenient to run along the S&C and then the MML, picking up tanks from other EDs along the way like Leyburn and Rowsley en-route.

 

The WCML milk train was mainly tanks for United Dairies at Willesden (Mitre Bridge) and Wood Lane. This would have picked up from other UD creameries along the way such as Calveley, Whitchurch and Ellesmere. Obviously dairies were not all neatly grouped by route so there was still a fair amount of tripping around London to be done. Many milk trains eventually wound up at Kensington Olympia where the tanks were remarshalled and tripped to the various bottling plants around the Capital. This became more significant after the implementation of the "Western Agreement" in the mid 60s which concentrated milk flows into London on the WR and SR. Milk traffic on the MR and ER largely dried up after this time but bottling plants on their networks like Ilford still needed serving.

 

One day I would like to sit down with a big archive of WTTs and work exactly what tanks went where and when. Sadly I don't expect to have time to do this anytime soon. I have pieces of the jigsaw that I have pieced together over the years but I am a long way from the full picture.

Edited by Karhedron
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On 13/07/2021 at 20:49, mac1960 said:

Any ideas of consist or loco power.

 

I only have a couple of photos of milk trains on the S&C and both are southbound. One is from the mid 50s and features an 8F on a long tank train with an LMS Stove-R about half way back providing Guard's accomodation. The second is at Appleby in 1965 with an Ivatt 4MT Mogul shunting the creamery. 4 tanks are on the mainline, 2 are in the creamery and one is being shunted. No brake vehicle is visible. I have heard it was common practice to leave the brake vehicle at the station which was just the other side of the bridge while shunting the creamery but I don't know for sure in this instance.

 

Both trains are southbound so would be heading heading down the S&C. Whether they are fulls or empties is not clear from the photos but it does show that traffic regularly ran south. Whether any ran northwards to Carlise I cannot say.

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On 15/07/2021 at 10:06, Karhedron said:

Whether they are fulls or empties is not clear from the photos but it does show that traffic regularly ran south. Whether any ran northwards to Carlise I cannot say.


I managed to get my hands on the 1955 Goods WTT for Carlisle to Leeds and it only shows one milk train a day going from Appleby to a Cricklewood. The train is heading southbound and is loaded.

 

It’s not clear how the empties were returned to Appleby.

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I've recently seen an undated (but late '50s on) photo of a northbound class C / 3 train at Dillicar troughs with nine 6-wheel milk tanks at the front (the rest of the train is composed of parcels vans). The photo will be used by a friend in a forthcoming book so I can't post it here. Regarding the recent post from Karhedron, I would have thought the 1965 sighting  at Appleby was of an out and back trip working from Carlisle - how far south would that have gone? - Kirkby Stephen perhaps?

Bill

PS A photo in Peter J Robinson's 1977 album 'West Coast Border Steam' has the following caption:- "'Duchess' 4-6-2 N0. 46228 Duchess of Rutland forges through Wreay cutting with the Sunday afternoon milk express train from Carlisle to Mitre Bridge, London in May 1964. This train picked up tanks from Appleby and Aspatria at Carlisle then ran non-stop at express speeds to Milnthorpe, where further talks were picked up. After that it only stopped at Crewe for crew changing". Another photograph taken in September 1966 states that ".... the Carlisle to Willesden perishable freight then carried the small number of milk tanks which previously ran as a separate train".

Edited by Bill Jamieson
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There is a short clip of milk tanks being shunted by a Jinty at about 6min into the Marsden Rail video Carlisle (volume 3). Unfortunately it is rather underexposed, but he does say that the tanks had come from Appleby and the Borders region, and were shunted into full trains at Carlisle. A class 40 is seen heading south from the station with a full train. 

 

Of course this was the early 1960s, but I doubt operations had changed too much. 

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OK, so the 1950s WTTs definitely show milk from Appleby working south to Cricklewood while we have evidence from the 1960s of the milk being worked north to Carlisle and then down the WCML. So, was there some kind of switch over circa 1960? Or did both flows co-exist?

 

Cricklewood was best accessed from the MML but Express Dairies also had a major bottling plant at South Acton. This would be most easily accessed from the WCML. A train coming off at Mitre Bridge junction could drop off tanks at the UD depot and then simply carry on to South Acton with the rest of the tanks. We have some pieces of the puzzle but we are a long way from the full picture.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 26/07/2021 at 16:53, Karhedron said:

OK, so the 1950s WTTs definitely show milk from Appleby working south to Cricklewood while we have evidence from the 1960s of the milk being worked north to Carlisle and then down the WCML. So, was there some kind of switch over circa 1960? Or did both flows co-exist?

 

Cricklewood was best accessed from the MML but Express Dairies also had a major bottling plant at South Acton. This would be most easily accessed from the WCML. A train coming off at Mitre Bridge junction could drop off tanks at the UD depot and then simply carry on to South Acton with the rest of the tanks. We have some pieces of the puzzle but we are a long way from the full picture.


Let me double check the WTT as I was focussing on a particular section of the line far to south of Appleby so it’s quite possible I missed some Northbound Workings

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  • 4 weeks later...

I've just discovered another piece of this jigsaw. An old edition of Steam Days magazine has a 1962 shot of the 11.35 am Hellifield to Carlisle stopping train approaching Armathwaite with six milk tanks at the rear, stated to have been attached at Appleby.

Bill

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The Sunday WCML milk train left Carlisle at 3.25pm. Weekdays and Saturdays it left much later in the evening  and ran down the WCML headed for Mitre Bridge (Unigate) and South Acton (Express Dairies) and used to depart later at either 8:10pm or 9:30pm depending on the day.

 

Another milk train that left Carlisle and ran down the S&C via Appleby before picking up the Midland Mainline and running to Cricklewood. According to the 1954 WTT, the S&C train used to depart Carlisle at 5pm on weekdays. There were 2 trains on Sundays departing at 3:25pm and the second at 10:15pm

Info from Facebook Cumbrian Railways page

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I have enjoyed reading about milk trains on  S and C  and WCML.  I am looking for photographs to aide my modelling.  I have one photograph of a milk train leaving Carlisle but it focuses on the loco.  Can anyone help please?

 

I am also trying to understand the milk traffic which operated under LMS (or early BR days) west along Wensleydale to Garsdale and the onto the S and C. Again please can anyone help or point me towards relevant literature or pictures?

 

Thanks, Tom

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6 hours ago, LMS29 said:

I am also trying to understand the milk traffic which operated under LMS (or early BR days) west along Wensleydale to Garsdale and the onto the S and C. Again please can anyone help or point me towards relevant literature or pictures?

 

I think that the LMS/MR was not heavily involved in milk traffic from Wensleydale. In 1937 Express Dairies opened a large Creamery at Leyburn to handle fresh milk coming out of the dale. This was handled by the LNER/ER. The milk train was worked east from Leyburn to Northallerton where it sometimes picked up additional tankers from the Cow and Gate factory. Then it was worked to Derby and only at that point did it transfer to LMS/MR metals for the run down the MML to Cricklewood.

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I agree with you, most of the milk from Wensleydale moved east and I have found a number photographs of small numbers of tankers  propelled by G5 locos heading to Leyburn or Northallerton but the LMS owned the line from Hawes to Garsdale and one book I have read suggests milk was also moved by the LMS to Garsdale but as yet I have not seen any evidence to support that or an explanation of where it went to from Garsdale.

 

Tom

Edited by LMS29
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From North Eastern days milk was taken from Hawes to Northallerton picking up vans on route. During the 1930's a special train was run and instructed to wait for deliveries. In 1908 the NE built a special van for the Wensletdale pure milk society. From Northallerton milk was then taken to Finsbury park. I am not aware of any milk traffic going to Garsdale from Hawes. Their was only one Midland passenger train from Hawes to Garsdale (the Boniface) .

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19 hours ago, LMS29 said:

I agree with you, most of the milk from Wensleydale moved east and I have found a number photographs of small numbers of tankers  propelled by G5 locos heading to Leyburn or Northallerton but the LMS owned the line from Muker to Garsdale and one book I have read suggests milk was also moved by the LMS to Garsdale but as yet I have not seen any evidence to support that or an explanation of where it went to from Garsdale.

 

Do you know if that was churn traffic? I have never heard of tanker traffic to or from Garsdale.

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