GER Ratio Coach Conversion Article?

[jwealleans]

These?

 

 

My 'signature dish'  - ferry vans.  The twice daily Harwich - Whitemoor came through Thurston and so I scratchbuilt a rake of ferry vans for the train.  These are Italian - the first ones I built, actually - and are probably best described as 'cooled' rather than refrigerated.  Ice was put into two small end compartments through the hatches on each side and cooled the contents as it thawed.  They also had a double roof to reduce the effect of direct sunlight and act as a cooling device when air flowed over it.  They're a fascinating study.  Adam of this parish is currently building one. They were used to import fruit, vegetables or cheese from Italy directly to places as far north as Manchester and Newcastle.

Edited July 11, 2018 by jwealleans

[bgman]

Yes thank you, I had an inkling that they may have been of European design, not unlike some early German wagons with the cabin fitted.

Thank you for clarifying that

[steves17]

Interesting thread, I've been toying with the idea of using Ratio kits for a planned project as they are vaguely similar to what I want but before I go and buy anything is anyone aware of any kits/brass side profiles for the 4 wheeled coaches from around the 1880s?

 

Regards 

Steve

[jwealleans]

There's a fellow called Prickley Pear Products who has a stand at the finescale shows... I think the Southwark Bridge etches have passed to Roxey Mouldings, no idea whether they go back that far.  Quainton Road models used to do MSLR 6 wheelers, they crop up on Ebay fairly frequently.  Did 5 & 9 models do coaches as well as wagons?  There might also be some that old in the Mousa Models range.

[Edwardian]

Interesting thread, I've been toying with the idea of using Ratio kits for a planned project as they are vaguely similar to what I want but before I go and buy anything is anyone aware of any kits/brass side profiles for the 4 wheeled coaches from around the 1880s?

 

Regards 

Steve

 

This is interesting.

 

Though the panelling is fairly conventional for its day, it appears (though the resolution isn't perfect) to have square corners to the bottom of the door and quarter lights, whereas the top corners have relatively larger radius curves; compare radius on the corners of the other panels).

 

This is a very GE feature (I assume this is a GE coach).  It was quite a common style for many builders/companies from at least the 1860s, but on the GE persisted, I would say into the 1890s, when it overlapped withsmall radius curves to all 4 corners of the panels but with apparently square cornered windows.

 

The other thing I notice is how wide the waist band appears to be.  The main problem with the Ratio Bain Suburbans as donor coaches is the depth of the waist band, which seem too deep for most other types, but which might help here..  

 

Could you use the Ratio suburbans for 1880s GE coaches by filing the bottom corners square and rounding off the top corners?   Well, unfortunately the Ratio Midland windows are also quite deep, so the waist does not line up with the GE drawing I have.

 

The other major problem is the generous Third Class compartment width favoured by the Midland.  It does not suit these GE 4/6-wheelers. 

 

I suspect nothing will be a perfect match for the GE coaches, so the question is whether one can capture the characteristic appearance.  The relative dearth of suitable available drawings for 4 and 6-wheel GE coaches does not help.  

Edited May 14, 2017 by Edwardian

[steves17]

Thanks jwealleans, I know 5&9 Models do do coaches as I brought some accessories and a few trucks a while back but they are LB&SC related, though I can see some resemblance with their 1866 third class coach. Sales are only partially open due to to difficulties but I found Chris quite helpful upon my inquiries at the time.

I've tried looking up the others but didn't get very far I'm afraid, will keep an eye open.

  

Cheers Edwardian. I was waiting till a book called 'Historic Carriage Drawings Vol1' arrived in the post but it contained less GER material than I was hoping for. I had thought about asking a company like Mousa Models or Worsley Works to perhaps make some side profiles and possibly more but other than them being 27ft long I've failed to find much information on the four-wheeled Stratford built GER carriages in general, so would not be able to provide any useful dimensions or even any decent photos. I know it's from p1 of this thread but could you tell me where that full diagram can be found please, was it the mentioned 'Practical Model Railways, March 1988' and does it contain one for a four wheeler as well?

Oh and sorry, yes the photo is indeed of a GER coach. I can't seem to find the wiki type page I found it on originally but this site has the same Norfolk photo and it mentions it was built in 1892.

 

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1541778

 

It's not in my neck of woods unfortunately so it's a bit far for me to come down with a measuring tape and likewise I'm not in the local preservation movement loop but I've just found these site pages if it's of interest.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stuart166axe/10665779805

 

http://p.earm.co.uk/15/bungay-coach

Edited May 11, 2017 by steves17

[phil_sutters]

Most the panelling seems to have disappeared from this relic, that had found its way across the country, a 6-wheeler, apparently with a corridor connection. But what intrigues me more is the identity of the neighbouring coach. It looks as though it could have been an impressive looking vehicle, with its recessed doorway.  Any thoughts?

Edited May 14, 2017 by phil_sutters

[jwealleans]

West Coast stock? Try asking on Tony Wright's thread, there's a bit of stock identification going on there.

Edited May 14, 2017 by jwealleans

[Compound2632]

But what intrigues me more is the identity of the neighbouring coach. It looks as though it could have been an impressive looking vehicle, with its recessed doorway.  Any thoughts?

 

This could well be one of the final design of 68' 12-wheel LNWR sleeping cars, D15 (also built for WCJS, D1) - it has the 'Wolverton diner' style panelling, high elliptical roof, and - the identification feature - end vestibule doors almost out to the body profile. (The otherwise similar first generation LMS sleeping carriages had end doors to the body profile.) Compare plate 52 in Jenkinson's LNWR Carriages - though this shows the Carriage assigned to the Royal Train, just before scrapping in 1968. That isn't the carriage in your picture since it's still in good nick paint-wise which yours doesn't look to be! 

 

The 6-wheeler looks at first sight to be square-panelled (where panelling survives) but on closer inspection it might have radiused corners except at the bottom of the windows - could indeed be GE?

[Nick Holliday]

Interesting thread, I've been toying with the idea of using Ratio kits for a planned project as they are vaguely similar to what I want but before I go and buy anything is anyone aware of any kits/brass side profiles for the 4 wheeled coaches from around the 1880s?

Regards 

Steve

I know I am opening up a can of worms, but Peter K on the Kemilway website lists three GER four wheel coach etchings. I am aware of the problems with this supplier, but the website does seem to have been updated fairly recently, and the prices, if anything, have been reduced. It might be worth trying to contact him, I think phone is the preferred method. They are half the price of a full blown kit from the likes of Roxey, so, if you can actually get hold of one, it is a cheap introduction into brass kits, although you do have to source the other bits and pieces. Although some of their earlier products were a bit iffy in design, I was impressed by the quality of some of the later ones I bought, such as the GER wool wagon, which went together very easily, or would have, if I had ignored some of the minor errors that I wanted to cure, but which wouldn't have materially affected the finished model too much. Brass isn't really that much different from card, and small models can easily be built using a good adhesive, which I believe is the preferred method for the Shirescenes GWR kits.

As for drawings of six wheeled stock, there are several that can be viewed on the NRM website, if you look in their research and archive section.

[Edwardian]

Most the panelling seems to have disappeared from this relic, that had found its way across the country, a 6-wheeler, apparently with a corridor connection. But what intrigues me more is the identity of the neighbouring coach. It looks as though it could have been an impressive looking vehicle, with its recessed doorway.  Any thoughts?

BR Eastern Region 6wh coach Gloucester 2 11 1962.jpg

 

Looks like the GE style of circa mid-late '90s, of the same ilk as the D&S kits.

[Compound2632]

This could well be one of the final design of 68' 12-wheel LNWR sleeping cars, D15 (also built for WCJS, D1) - it has the 'Wolverton diner' style panelling, high elliptical roof, and - the identification feature - end vestibule doors almost out to the body profile. (The otherwise similar first generation LMS sleeping carriages had end doors to the body profile.) Compare plate 52 in Jenkinson's LNWR Carriages - though this shows the Carriage assigned to the Royal Train, just before scrapping in 1968. That isn't the carriage in your picture since it's still in good nick paint-wise which yours doesn't look to be! 

 

The 6-wheeler looks at first sight to be square-panelled (where panelling survives) but on closer inspection it might have radiused corners except at the bottom of the windows - could indeed be GE?

 Here's a picture of the LMS version with doors to body profile (in fact LMS & LNE joint - successor to, and still lettered for, the M&NB Joint Stock for St Pancras - Edinburgh services).

Edited May 14, 2017 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

Good news. Having looked at the coach article mentioned in the OP, and compared the outline drawings on the box-art for the D&S GE coaches of the late 1890s with the Ratio sides, I see that the latter are a fairly good match for the former, so some cutting and shutting should produce a reasonable representation of a GER 6-wheel coach. 

 

The drawings I was looking at previously represented a slightly older style.

 

The article concerned, and the Ratio sides against the D&S drawings for comparison, are pictured below.

 

Further good news is that Guy Rixon of this parish has very kindly designed 3D-Print Great Eastern Railway coach components.  They are available on Shapeways: https://www.shapeways.com/product/8DZ6QHBP7/ger-6w-coach-fittings-set-a

 

I ordered the test print, which is pictured below.  There is enough for ONE 6-wheeled coach. They are particularly good value in my view.

[Northroader]

They're the wrong scale, Grommit!

[Edwardian]

They're the wrong scale, Grommit!

 

I'm not sure a grommit is included on the sprue, but it might be worth asking Guy if he can produce a 7mm version.

[Guy Rixon]

I can do the coach fittings in 7mm scale. Scaling up the 4mm-scale CAD is trivial, but will expose the limitations of the design.

 

- Some of the suspension components have gained weight in their later years. Shapeways can't print them to true 1:76.2.

 

- I bodged the bent part of the J-hangers with a square section where it should have been round. You can't really see this in 4mm scale, but it might show in 7mm scale. My CAD package makes heavy weather of bending things and bending round rods is particularly hard.

 

- The bores in the buffers are for standard springing in 4mm scale; expanding them by a factor 7/4 won't be right for any known springing system in 7mm scale.

 

I can fix all of these points but it would be a few hours work. If anybody has a definite interest, please let me know. 

[gryffron]

Hello Edwardian and others,

 

I found this thread while googling for GER coaches. And it has finally spurred me to sign up to RMWeb. I share your interest in modelling GER 6 wheelers.

 

First if I may share these. The summerhouse at a private property I visited this summer. A beautifully restored GER luggage compo. My photographs

 

The M&GN Circle have a number of drawings of GER coaches. http://www.mgncircle.org.uk/ . Some of them are fairly poor quality photocopies of photostats. But still useful. There's actually more than they show on the online list, because the v.poor quality drawings aren't listed online. Talk to the guy who runs their drawing office. Very helpful.

 

I have acquired a number of D&S 6-wheeler kits from ebay. Those I have are all square windowed and listed build 1897-8. Whilst I have built brass models before, these look hideous complicated, with hundreds of tiny parts. I am somewhat daunted. Did consider trying to run off copies by photocopying and reproducing the etches, since the kits are long out of production and such a precious resource these days, Has anyone ever done this?

 

Does anyone know whether the PeterK 4-wheelers are suburbans or not?

 

Thanks to the links to Guy's parts. I shall definitely be buying some of those. I have found modelling panelled coaches from scratch in OO is hard, although doable larger scales. Very difficult to get the panels square and even. They always look wonky. I also considered using the same 3D printer technique to produce my own coach side panels. Although the panelling is complex, it is basically just the same shapes reproduced over and over. If Guy is reading, do you think that is practical? Did you build your coaches by hand or print them?

 

Happy modelling,

Gryffron

 

 

 

 

[jwealleans]

...the kits are long out of production

Dan is still producing these and the 6 wheel luggage brake is on his current list. I believe he last did the others in the latter part of last year.

[Guy Rixon]

Hello Edwardian and others,

 

I found this thread while googling for GER coaches. And it has finally spurred me to sign up to RMWeb. I share your interest in modelling GER 6 wheelers.

 

First if I may share these. The summerhouse at a private property I visited this summer. A beautifully restored GER luggage compo. My photographs

Photo 14-05-2017, 15 04 51.jpg

Photo 14-05-2017, 15 05 18.jpg

 

The M&GN Circle have a number of drawings of GER coaches. http://www.mgncircle.org.uk/ . Some of them are fairly poor quality photocopies of photostats. But still useful. There's actually more than they show on the online list, because the v.poor quality drawings aren't listed online. Talk to the guy who runs their drawing office. Very helpful.

 

I have acquired a number of D&S 6-wheeler kits from ebay. Those I have are all square windowed and listed build 1897-8. Whilst I have built brass models before, these look hideous complicated, with hundreds of tiny parts. I am somewhat daunted. Did consider trying to run off copies by photocopying and reproducing the etches, since the kits are long out of production and such a precious resource these days, Has anyone ever done this?

 

Does anyone know whether the PeterK 4-wheelers are suburbans or not?

 

Thanks to the links to Guy's parts. I shall definitely be buying some of those. I have found modelling panelled coaches from scratch in OO is hard, although doable larger scales. Very difficult to get the panels square and even. They always look wonky. I also considered using the same 3D printer technique to produce my own coach side panels. Although the panelling is complex, it is basically just the same shapes reproduced over and over. If Guy is reading, do you think that is practical? Did you build your coaches by hand or print them?

 

Happy modelling,

Gryffron

 

 

I haven't designed coach bodies for printing myself. My experience with prints from other designers is limited. I have a Met full-brake that has been printed in rough plastic and that's borderline unusable (the vendor has a painted display-sample that is not too bad, but getting the panels cleaned up is a horrible process). I have a body printed in FUD where the panels are fine but the mouldings have disappeared.

 

So, clearly, it's not easy to get this right.

 

If I had a printer, I would definitely try a test piece of panelled coach to see if I could get a suitable result. If it came out needing a lot of cleaning up then I would not proceed. It's too hard to manually polish the panels flat while preserving the mouldings.

 

I am not prepared to push a series of test bodies to Shapeways because it's too expensive to me for the likely results (i.e. I expect them to fail). There is anecdotal evidence that iMaterialise are better for printing bodies, but I have not worked with them.

 

One approach that I might try is to print the mouldings, at Shapeways, in FUD, as separate parts. I could then apply these to a hand-built body, or to a body printed in a material that could easily be polished flat. In fact, I would consider buying the core body in polished material from Shapeways (not sure about their pricing here). If this worked - i.e. if I found a reliable way to fix the moulding lace to the panels, bearing in mind that solvent won't work - I would consider pre-painting the mouldings before assembly. This would let me line the moulding edges in a neat way.

 

Of course, the established way to do mouldings is a die cutter.

[Guy Rixon]

They're the wrong scale, Grommit!

 

Grommit has been busy uprating them for 7mm scale. The A set is available now and the B set will be out when I've recompiled it with the right number of leaves in the outer springs. "Recompiling" sounds trivial, but is actually a day-long slog for my laptop with lights dimming all over Devon. Also, squeezing 65Mb of model up the damp string between me and Shapeways takes a while. However, the suspension detail is quite a bit finer now so it was worth it IMHO.

[Edwardian]

Good news. Having looked at the coach article mentioned in the OP, and compared the outline drawings on the box-art for the D&S GE coaches of the late 1890s with the Ratio sides, I see that the latter are a fairly good match for the former, so some cutting and shutting should produce a reasonable representation of a GER 6-wheel coach. 

 

The drawings I was looking at previously represented a slightly older style.

 

The article concerned, and the Ratio sides against the D&S drawings for comparison, are pictured below.

 

Further good news is that Guy Rixon of this parish has very kindly designed 3D-Print Great Eastern Railway coach components.  They are available on Shapeways: https://www.shapeways.com/product/8DZ6QHBP7/ger-6w-coach-fittings-set-a

 

I ordered the test print, which is pictured below.  There is enough for ONE 6-wheeled coach. They are particularly good value in my view.

 

 

This saga is updated here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107713-castle-aching/page-308&do=findComment&comment=3033107, but, essentially, a comparison of a Ratio side with a D&S kit shows a reasonable match in panel styles:

[Edwardian]

There is the prospect of Holden Type 5 6-Wheeler kits being manufactured in 4mm the not too distant future: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/131442-eveleigh-creations-great-eastern-4-6-wheel-coaches/&do=findComment&comment=3053367

 

They were suggested very much with Guy's GER coach accessories (set A) in mind.