TOPS Reports 1970s-2017

[MarshLane]

Bit of an odd request, but does anyone happen to have lying around, stored in cupboards etc.. , any original TOPS system reports?  If so, would you be willing to scan/photograph and email a copy to me?

 

Myself and a mate, are playing around with a idea for something that could be a bit of fun for a model layout, but we're looking for the kind of data and layout that was on reports, really from the introduction of TOPS in the 1970s through to the current day.

 

The type and date of report doesn't matter, we're looking to see as many types as possible - so power reports, regional reports, train consist, wagon or yard reports etc.  We have several TRUST timetable/service printouts here, so this is just TOPS - locos, wagons, consist, works, depot, yards, areas, etc..

 

We don't want to take the original reports from you, and are not looking to borrow them - just a digital photo or a scan (as long as its basically readable) in a decent size as JPG file that could be emailed to marsh.lane@outlook.com would be appreciated.

 

Anything sent, would be treated in confidence - we're NOT looking to publish the data, just understand what information was contained within said reports, and the style and layout.  Feel free to shout with any queries, or PM me.

 

Thanks for any assistance anyone can give.

 

Rich

 

[stovepipe]

Don't know whether you've seen this game?

 

http://www.railrover.co.uk/tops.php

 

It implements several of the TOPS reports available, and the web pages gives some examples which look very close to what I remember.

 

I do have some old TOPS reports in the bottom of cupboard somewhere....

[bescotbeast]

Bit of an odd request, but does anyone happen to have lying around, stored in cupboards etc.. , any original TOPS system reports?  If so, would you be willing to scan/photograph and email a copy to me?

 

Myself and a mate, are playing around with a idea for something that could be a bit of fun for a model layout, but we're looking for the kind of data and layout that was on reports, really from the introduction of TOPS in the 1970s through to the current day.

 

The type and date of report doesn't matter, we're looking to see as many types as possible - so power reports, regional reports, train consist, wagon or yard reports etc.  We have several TRUST timetable/service printouts here, so this is just TOPS - locos, wagons, consist, works, depot, yards, areas, etc..

 

We don't want to take the original reports from you, and are not looking to borrow them - just a digital photo or a scan (as long as its basically readable) in a decent size as JPG file that could be emailed to marsh.lane@outlook.com would be appreciated.

 

Anything sent, would be treated in confidence - we're NOT looking to publish the data, just understand what information was contained within said reports, and the style and layout.  Feel free to shout with any queries, or PM me.

 

Thanks for any assistance anyone can give.

 

Rich

TOPS daily distribution list 1985 by Simon Barnes, on Flickr

[MarshLane]

Thanks Simon. That's one we hadn't seen before.

 

@stovepipe: Cheers. Yes I'm aware of the site, and have seen the could of screen shots that are on there, but we wondered if they had been amended in anyway to suit the game?

 

Rich

[The Stationmaster]

There was a TOPS Enquiry manual published around 1974/5 which contained details of all the reports needed for most local operating staff the system could offer at that date and it might be worth looking for.  It was, I think, probably updated in subsequent years and being that early it of course didn't include many of the subsequent traction reports or, obviously anything on coaching stock.   I'm desperately trying to remember if -

a. I've actiually got a copy of it still, and

b. Where it might be, er, filed

 

Incidentally the date of introduction of TOPs was 1972 for the first trial sites with more trial sites being added in 1973 and full cutover commencing in late 1973 with most of the work actually getting underway in 1974.  'Managing With TOPS' courses - for which the manual was originally prepared - got underway in, I think, the second half of 1974 or early 1975 and could be either a specially devised for of hell or great fun depending on how much you knew before you went in the course as it involved 'managing' several large yards for a week as paper exercises.  The amusing bit was the need to get several reports before breakfast every morning which was great if you knew how to set up the Inquiries and leave the terminal to run them and sheer murder if you had to input each one manually.

[MarshLane]

There was a TOPS Enquiry manual published around 1974/5 which contained details of all the reports needed for most local operating staff the system could offer at that date and it might be worth looking for.  It was, I think, probably updated in subsequent years and being that early it of course didn't include many of the subsequent traction reports or, obviously anything on coaching stock.   I'm desperately trying to remember if -

a. I've actiually got a copy of it still, and

b. Where it might be, er, filed

 

Incidentally the date of introduction of TOPs was 1972 for the first trial sites with more trial sites being added in 1973 and full cutover commencing in late 1973 with most of the work actually getting underway in 1974.  'Managing With TOPS' courses - for which the manual was originally prepared - got underway in, I think, the second half of 1974 or early 1975 and could be either a specially devised for of hell or great fun depending on how much you knew before you went in the course as it involved 'managing' several large yards for a week as paper exercises.  The amusing bit was the need to get several reports before breakfast every morning which was great if you knew how to set up the Inquiries and leave the terminal to run them and sheer murder if you had to input each one manually.

 

 

Thanks Mike,

Thats interesting - id assumed there must be something like that, but from my limited time on the railway, a lot of TOPS knowledge seemed to be passed on from experienced guys to the new lads, through had written notes, or note books passed on from their predecessors!  There never seemed to be any proper guides or paperwork, so I wasn't sure if it existed!

 

I've a whole host of paperwork from Tees Yard thats dated 1981, and concerns the time where customers were being introduced to TOPS, through CTT (Consisting Through Tops) rather than wagon labels etc, as we were discussing on another thread, but that doesn't help with the reports and enquiries!

 

Anything you find would be appreciated if you have time.

 

Cheers

Rich

[MarshLane]

There was a TOPS Enquiry manual published around 1974/5 which contained details of all the reports needed for most local operating staff the system could offer at that date and it might be worth looking for.  It was, I think, probably updated in subsequent years and being that early it of course didn't include many of the subsequent traction reports or, obviously anything on coaching stock.   I'm desperately trying to remember if -

a. I've actiually got a copy of it still, and

b. Where it might be, er, filed

 

Hi Mike,

No rush at all, just wondered if you'd managed to find out whether you still had a copy or not?

 

Rich

[Rivercider]

Thanks Mike,

Thats interesting - id assumed there must be something like that, but from my limited time on the railway, a lot of TOPS knowledge seemed to be passed on from experienced guys to the new lads, through had written notes, or note books passed on from their predecessors!  There never seemed to be any proper guides or paperwork, so I wasn't sure if it existed!

 

I've a whole host of paperwork from Tees Yard thats dated 1981, and concerns the time where customers were being introduced to TOPS, through CTT (Consisting Through Tops) rather than wagon labels etc, as we were discussing on another thread, but that doesn't help with the reports and enquiries!

 

Anything you find would be appreciated if you have time.

 

Cheers

Rich

CTT stands for Consigned Through TOPS, which as you say did away with most wagon labels and a lot of other paperwork.

Thereafter we in Bristol TOPS had more direct contact with freight customers who reported directly to us when loading out traffic.

When declaring a wagon(s) released to traffic from customer A to customer B we no longer had to input the destination, commodity code, weight, dangerous goods UN number, or any special handling codes as all these details were all included within the unique 'Flow' number that applied to traffic between A and B, all that was required was the Flow number, the wagon number(s) and the weight of the contents,

 

cheers

Edited January 29, 2017 by Rivercider

[Rivercider]

Here is a F4 train enquiry for 6C43 from Severn Tunnel Junction to Llandeilo Junction,

I sometimes used to go out taking photos on weekday mornings before working a 14.00 - 22.00 turn in Bristol TOPS,

I would take a wagon number from the train, and on arrival at work I would try to identify the trains I had seen,

this is the only F4 enquiry that has survived among my paperwork.

 

F4 train enquiry

 

 

And here is the photo of the train as it passed Gaer Junction in Newport, 25/1/82

6C43 Severn Tunnel Junction to Llaneilo Junction passing Gaer Junction behind 46049.

The 16t minerals are loaded with tin can offcuts of scrap from Upton Park to Nevil's Dock at Llanelli.

In the middle is a vanfit of beet pulp nuts from  Spalding to Llandeilo. 

while the tanks are discharged propane TTFs returning from Plymstock to Herbrandston 

 

cheers

[Rivercider]

There was a TOPS Enquiry manual published around 1974/5 which contained details of all the reports needed for most local operating staff the system could offer at that date and it might be worth looking for.  It was, I think, probably updated in subsequent years and being that early it of course didn't include many of the subsequent traction reports or, obviously anything on coaching stock.   I'm desperately trying to remember if -

a. I've actiually got a copy of it still, and

b. Where it might be, er, filed

 

Incidentally the date of introduction of TOPs was 1972 for the first trial sites with more trial sites being added in 1973 and full cutover commencing in late 1973 with most of the work actually getting underway in 1974.  'Managing With TOPS' courses - for which the manual was originally prepared - got underway in, I think, the second half of 1974 or early 1975 and could be either a specially devised for of hell or great fun depending on how much you knew before you went in the course as it involved 'managing' several large yards for a week as paper exercises.  The amusing bit was the need to get several reports before breakfast every morning which was great if you knew how to set up the Inquiries and leave the terminal to run them and sheer murder if you had to input each one manually.

I have the cover of a TOPS Enquiries booklet, it is an A3 sized floppy yellow plastic cover into which hole punched loose pages could be fitted using a metal binder.

My copy has been re-purposed at some point as it now contains Working Manual White pages and WR train loads booklets.

 

I think the enquiry booklet would have been updated with new/replacement pages in the early years, but by the 1980s the enquiry inputs all went on-line

as did the tops location handbook, so the booklet fell out of use,

 

cheers

[MarshLane]

Hi Kevin,

 

Thanks for your input, much appreciated.

 

Here is a F4 train enquiry for 6C43 from Severn Tunnel Junction to Llandeilo Junction,

I sometimes used to go out taking photos on weekday mornings before working a 14.00 - 22.00 turn in Bristol TOPS,

I would take a wagon number from the train, and on arrival at work I would try to identify the trains I had seen,

this is the only F4 enquiry that has survived among my paperwork.

 

cheers

 

Many thanks - thats great.  Would I be right in thinking then that an F4 was a quicker way of getting a consist?  I always used to do a TRJC on the head code then 'v' to get the consist?

 

I have the cover of a TOPS Enquiries booklet, it is an A3 sized floppy yellow plastic cover into which hole punched loose pages could be fitted using a metal binder.

My copy has been re-purposed at some point as it now contains Working Manual White pages and WR train loads booklets.

 

cheers

 

 

Is there any change you would be willing to photograph or photocopy the pages from it for me? I'll happily reimburse you any costs.

 

Rich

[Rivercider]

Hi Kevin,

 

Thanks for your input, much appreciated.

 

 

Many thanks - thats great.  Would I be right in thinking then that an F4 was a quicker way of getting a consist?  I always used to do a TRJC on the head code then 'v' to get the consist?

 

 

 

Is there any change you would be willing to photograph or photocopy the pages from it for me? I'll happily reimburse you any costs.

 

Rich

Hi Rich

 

yes you are correct, using TRJC then 'V' is the same as doing a F4 enquiry.

 

Using the sample train above the input to get a full train consist was:-

F4 A

29 76 6C 43 U 25

 

F4 S

29 76 6C 43 U 25     would get you a summary of the loco, load and all the booked calling points,

 

 

I do not have the contents of the TOPS Enquiries booklet, it now contains Working Manual pages and Freight Train loads pages,

this is what the cover looks like though, it is a floppy plastic cover,

 

cheers

[The Stationmaster]

I have the cover of a TOPS Enquiries booklet, it is an A3 sized floppy yellow plastic cover into which hole punched loose pages could be fitted using a metal binder.

My copy has been re-purposed at some point as it now contains Working Manual White pages and WR train loads booklets.

 

I think the enquiry booklet would have been updated with new/replacement pages in the early years, but by the 1980s the enquiry inputs all went on-line

as did the tops location handbook, so the booklet fell out of use,

 

cheers

 

The original one had a thin card/paper cover.

[Rivercider]

TOPS daily distribution list 1985 by Simon Barnes, on Flickr

I did not get directly involved with the freight rolling stock returns so do not know too much about it.

I think this was a daily report that was either issued by the Central Wagon Authority (CWA) at Marylebone(?), or automatically output each weekday.

 

 

This one refers to the supply of empty HBA and HEA hoppers to Bescot Yard which must have been the distributing yard for collieries requiring wagons to load,

Movement Instruction  5501 was in effect a 'standing order' to arrange a steady supply of empties to a location with regular wagon orders.

I think I can work out what the columns mean

1  -  TOPS receiving location 65700

2 -  Location name Bescot

3 - Average number of wagons required daily  9

4 - Actual wagons ordered  ( I think this was the figure that was amended ona daily basis)  9

5 - O H  - the amount of days a wagon needed to be On Hand before loading, in this case nil as the wagons were immediately ready for distribution once they arrived at Bescot 

6 - E R - the average amount of days an empty wagon would take en route from its unloading point to arrival at Bescot, in this case 1 day.

7 -  TOT - the total days required for an empty wagon to arrive (col 5 plus col 6)  in this case 1 day 

8 - Total number of wagons required to protect pipeline to ensure a steady supply of empties  9  (the multiple of column 4   times column 7 )

9 - O H - number of empties on hand at Bescot is 5

10 - E R - number of empties en route to Bescot  is 57

11 -  TOTL - total number of empties in pipeline to Bescot is therefore 62

12 - Supply position today if no more emptied are released towards Bescot is 53 (that is the pipeline total of 62 less predicted daily loading of 9)

13 - Supply position tomorrow if no more empties released towards Bescot is 44 ( the pipeline total of 62 less 2 times daily loading of 9)

14 - M I -  is the Movement Instruction number in this case it is 5501. It was possible to do an enquiry on individual Movement Instructions to see the up to date position 

       (I think it might have been a BE enquiry)

15 - M I base value   not sure what that means

16 - M I actual value  not sure what that means, possibly the maximum number of empties that could be sent against the instruction.

 

 

perhaps someone with TOPS era  Freight Rolling Stock knowledge can explain better?  

 

cheers

[MarshLane]

Hi Rich

 

yes you are correct, using TRJC then 'V' is the same as doing a F4 enquiry.

 

Using the sample train above the input to get a full train consist was:-

F4 A

29 76 6C 43 U 25

 

F4 S

29 76 6C 43 U 25     would get you a summary of the loco, load and all the booked calling points,

 

 

I do not have the contents of the TOPS Enquiries booklet, it now contains Working Manual pages and Freight Train loads pages,

 

 

cheers

 

 

Kevin,

Many, many thanks. I'd worked out about 60% of the column headings, but you've just filled in the remainder for me!  Apologies, had I correctly read your original message I'd have realised the pages had changed!  Sorry mis-read that.

 

I wish I'd kept the notebooks that were passed onto me by one of the controllers when he left, consequently when I left, I passed them onto one of the new guys.  Shame I don't know where they went, as they were a mine of information on various enquiries and data sets!

 

Rich

[Flood]

I don't know if anyone else had/has one of these:

 

 

I was given it in 1986 at St Peter's House. It lists TOPS depot codes, restricted working codes, operating status codes, regular maintenance codes, reason out of service codes, and train heat/brake/multiple control/regional/special characteristics and radio/telephone codes.

 

I never needed that amount of information, all I used TOPS for was rail enthusiasm. You learnt quite quickly that code 100 was repairs to engines, FRE was fire on locomotive etc.

 

I used F4 A and F4 S for train information. As far as I can remember E3 1 was information for a particular loco and J6 1 was the same for a coach. There was also a code for a particular station which told you the locos already there or due to arrive and the services they were on (or allocated to) - I can't remember the code for that but it was nearly 30 years ago.

[Hippel]

That was a TV. I can still do an X3 without looking it up! (Wagons at a particular location.)

 

Paul.

[Rivercider]

In my old notebooks a few TOPS enquiries survive, these enquiries were made to  find out which trains I had seen earlier that day.

 

Here is an A9 wagon enquiry for a 16t mineral wagon B 555332, the A9 was a forerunner to the J6 enquiry.

 

 

At the top you can see the entire computer input, with my name (KEV)  beneath.

 

B555332 is an MCV 16t mineral wagon, loaded H (heavy) with phurnacite (CPHURN) destination 86424 (Chichester) for Corralls.

T-860 is the shunting tag - 860 is the tag for Eastleigh Yard which had a direct service from Severn Tunnel Junction

P-NONE  means the wagon is not in a wagon pool so is treated as a common user 16t mineral and  from Chichester will next go empty to the closest yard requiring empty 16t minerals.

 

It originated at Abercwmboi Phurnacite Plant (78128) on 29/11/81 and is now located at Sever Tunnel Junction (76090)

having arrived on 788C59P at 12.00 on 1/12/81 (8C59 which originated at a yard with a TOPS code starting 78xxx, so probably Radyr or Abercwmboi)

 

Destination order at 78400 means that Radyr TOPS (78400) was the office that input the last loading instruction.

 

Last 6 repairs were codes 57, 57, 57, 56, 59, 56  (57 is a light repair, 56 is a intermediate repair, 59 a traffic sidings repair)

Last preventive maintenance carried out 08/09/81 (note that the system was later changed to show when the next ppm was due)

 

Delivery conditions  - nil ( I think might include details of whether cartage or craneage was paid for)

Actual net weight  - nil (this was not always applied in pre CTT (Consigned Through TOPS) days, the lading code H meant it was treated as full.

Heaviest lift -  nil (this might apply to steel bar traffic for example)

Wagon sheets - nil

 

cheers

[Rivercider]

Here is part of an EJ enquiry.

The EJ was used to enable Control, yard masters, supervisors or shunters  to know what tonnage of traffic they already had on hand

in a particular yard sorted by the outgoing tagging instruction. It was possible to ask for a complete list of all outgoing shunting tags,

or as I appear to have done here to only ask for tags in the range 730 and above.

This enquiry was made during the change over from the old vacuum braked to the new Speedlink Network. 

 

This is traffic on hand at 76090 (Severn Tunnel Junction) at 23.02 on 19/10/82

 

Tag 730  is for Acton Yard vacuum braked or unfitted

Tag 732  is for Acton Yard air braked

Tag 740  is for Reading West Junction

Tag 750  is for Swindon Yard vacuum or unbraked

Tag 752  is for Swindon air braked

Tag 76A  is for Newport Alexandra Dock Junction Yard

Tag 76C  is for East Usk Yard and was the tag for most of the empty coal wagons for South Wales, East Usk being a distribution yard for coal empties.

Tag 76J  may be Ebbw Vale BSC

Tag 76L  is for Llanwern BSC

Tag 76U  may be for Newport Gwent Coal Distribution CCD

Tag 770  is for Cardiff Tidal sidings,

 

cheers

[Rivercider]

I am sure a number of you will be familiar with E3 loco enquiries,

here is one that brings back happy memories for me of hunting class 37s in the South Wales valleys.

 

My input appears at the top of the print, the printout should be self explanatory

 

TRFD meant that the loco had last been reported on a yard transfer which meant a move wholly within one TOPS Responsibility Area (TRA)

it might be simply a five minute shunt from a main yard into the adjacent cripple sidings, or an hour long trip up the valley.

It was a bit imprecise for longer movements, and later on the facility was withdrawn from TOPS meaning moves had to be by a fully reported train consist

with actual departure and arrival times being input.

 

37272 and 37258 are working from Merthyr Vale to Aberthaw  Power Station with 6O79 a MGR train.

 

The reference to RR10 (Radyr 10) RR11 (Radyr 11) etc was the Power Controllers input to show the loco(s) was allocated to a particular local trip

and was an enhancement to the system that came in during the 1980s.

 

cheers

 

[MarshLane]

Kev,

Those are great thanks - I'd forgotten that the likes of E3 enquiries could have multiple locos, each on a new line.  I never found out what the 1 stood for or resulted in after the E3 command - any idea?

 

Does anyone have any documentation for non South Wales yard tags at all?

 

Rich

[Rivercider]

Kev,

Those are great thanks - I'd forgotten that the likes of E3 enquiries could have multiple locos, each on a new line.  I never found out what the 1 stood for or resulted in after the E3 command - any idea?

 

Does anyone have any documentation for non South Wales yard tags at all?

 

Rich

Hi Rich

 

The basic loco enquiry to find the current location of a loco, (possibly up to 10 locos) would be:-

 

E3 1

37001

KEV

 

Other variations also gave details of the loco service history, and also other details like build date, length, weight, fuel capacity, whether fitted with mini snow plow brackets etc

I think the enquiry would be

E3 1 2

37001

KEV

 

or

 

E3 1 2 1

37001

KEV

 

 

cheers

Edited January 30, 2017 by Rivercider

[MarshLane]

Thanks Kevin

 

Rich

[Rivercider]

Kev,

 

Does anyone have any documentation for non South Wales yard tags at all?

 

Rich

I do not have any other print outs from other parts of the country, did you have anywhere in mind?

It is sometimes possible to work out what shunting tags would apply to a yard, it depended on what regular traffic passed through,

and what other yards were directly served by trains from there.

 

For wagons moving between TRAs they would receive a trunk tag which routed them to the next major yard.

The tag comprised the first two numbers of the next yards TOPS location number, the major yard of the area always had the third character 0,

hence traffic routed via Toton 56590 would be tagged 560, traffic routed via Bescot 65700 would be tagged 650, traffic via Mossend 07360 tagged 070, etc etc.

For other yards in the area the third character could be a number or letter, often a logical letter, hence traffic via Exeter Riverside 83400 was tagged 830, traffic via Taunton 83000 was tagged 83T.

 

 

To pick a fairly simple scenario I could have a guess at the shunting tags that applied to St Blazey Yard in the vacuum braked era based on the outgoing train service.

 

There were daily freight trains from St Blazey to Exeter Riverside, Carlisle and Temple Mills, as well as the clayliner to Stoke-on-Trent traffic for which would have a special tag.

 

6M55 18.10 to Longport would have traffic in two portions for Longport 43046 (tag 43L) and Shelton Wharf 43213 (43S)

 

7E19 19.40 to Temple Mills had several calling points so several different blocks of traffic with different tags, Bristol area traffic detached at Kingsland Road 81609 (810)

London area traffic detached at Acton (730), and East London and Anglia traffic would be detached at Temple MIlls 52200 (520)

 

7B15 20.45 to Exeter Riverside would convey Plymouth area traffic to detach at Friary 84100 (840) and Exeter area traffic for Riverside 83400 (830)

 

7M86 22.05 to Carlisle would call at Severn Tunnel Junction 76090 (760) to detach South Wales traffic, Warrington 35550 (350) to detach traffic for the North West, and Carlisle  09150 (090) to detach traffic for Cumbria and Scotland.

 

Locally traffic for Truro 85503 and Penzance  85732 might be tagged 85T or 85P.

Other traffic for local destinations around St Blazey would have a local tag in the 900-999 series for which there was no logical sequence that I could discern!

 

cheers 

[Flood]

Just found these on the back of a rock family tree (based around Rainbow) that I drew out in about 1988! Possibly a TV report, they seem to cover all Western Region locations from 83000 (Taunton) onwards, dated 30 March 1988. They are quite a large scan, please click on the images to enlarge:

 

 

 

When I get a bit more time I'll scan that TOPS locomotive codes book for you.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Flood