Spalding to March - The End - now expanding a little beyond.

[elydock]

March to Spalding "Joint line 92" video uploaded to youtube. 

 

This video was made in 1992 by the late Derek Haynes of March. As Derek has since passed away and Nene Video productions no longer exist, I'm sure that he would be very pleased to have this video uploaded to the internet so people can still watch it. This is a tribute to him, the line itself (how useful would it be now?) and the men who worked it. The video isn't great quality but its of it's time and I think that the subject matter more than makes up for this.

 

P.S. Look out for the ghost at Holbeach Drove level crossing. You need to look at the bottom of the screen under the crossing house sign. You must make your own mind up and may not believe in these things but I witnessed first hand the alarm, upset and ill feeling it caused for some level headed old railwayman who first viewed the footage in 1992. They all recognised the figure who apparently used to be a crossing keeper and got killed by a train there in the late 1950s! No one saw anything on the day of filming, it was only afterwards that it was noticed. The BBC were interested in the footage at the time too.

Edited September 8, 2018 by elydock

[cravensdmufan]

elydock, that video was so interesting - thanks very much for posting.

[LMS_LNER_SR_GWR_fan2004]

Just found this, a bit old now but there’s still hope: https://www.cambstimes.co.uk/news/plea-to-reopen-march-to-spalding-rail-link-1-5855459

 

[ess1uk]

yes but the track bed is non existent and given the road that now runs on parts of it is sinking into the fens then it would be a MAJOR job to rebuild the rail link, however much it may be needed.

 

[caradoc]

It is sad to see any railway closed, but when the March-Spalding route went there was really no justification for retaining it, and I cannot see any real reason to rebuild it, given the issues ess1uk mentions. And, what traffic would it carry ? Passenger traffic is far better served via Peterborough, and the planned grade separation there will facilitate freight traffic avoiding the ECML.

[stivesnick]

18 hours ago, LMS_LNER_SR_GWR_fan2004 said:

Just found this, a bit old now but there’s still hope: https://www.cambstimes.co.uk/news/plea-to-reopen-march-to-spalding-rail-link-1-5855459

 

 

A few people getting some publicity in the local media is no sign that anything is about to happen or indeed should happen. As others have pointed out, the new rail underpass north of Peterborough means that freight will use the existing lines so no need for a new route. 

 

Nick 

[Suzie]

There is quite a lot of freight that could go that way to relieve capacity elsewhere if it was part of a greater system of improvements. Unlikely to be much need for passenger traffic - that would be a by-product. 

[jonny777]

On 31/08/2018 at 02:25, elydock said:

 

Here is a random selection of days from my 1978 train register which came from French Drove signal box and is an accurate record of events and what trains and services were actually running.  The night shifts were still steady with freight! What an absolute waste of a valuable line.

 

Hope people find it of interest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can I put in my bid to give this particular French Drove signalman a medal? 

 

Not only did he add train headcodes in the remarks, but he put loco numbers in as well. This is a boon to future researchers looking for loco workings on particular trains.  Most registers are devoid of any remarks - presumably because it wasn't compulsory. 

 

Well done that man (assuming it was a man - apologies if not). 

[John Tomlinson]

4 hours ago, stivesnick said:

 

A few people getting some publicity in the local media is no sign that anything is about to happen or indeed should happen. As others have pointed out, the new rail underpass north of Peterborough means that freight will use the existing lines so no need for a new route. 

 

Nick 

Quite. If March to Spalding had been retained there would have been no need for the underpass, on which work is now well underway no doubt at great expense. I'm afraid I think this is the final nail in the coffin of any hopes to re-open the line. I've hopefully attached a pic taken earlier in the year at Marholm on the ECML with the underpass work getting started.

 

John.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by John Tomlinson
typo

[pete_mcfarlane]

4 hours ago, stivesnick said:

 

A few people getting some publicity in the local media is no sign that anything is about to happen or indeed should happen.

 

I can't help thinking they'd be better off campaigning for improved services on the joint line instead of a highly unlikely reopening. 

[Classsix T]

On 27/06/2019 at 12:13, John Tomlinson said:

Quite. If March to Spalding had been retained there would have been no need for the underpass, on which work is now well underway no doubt at great expense. I'm afraid I think this is the final nail in the coffin of any hopes to re-open the line. I've hopefully attached a pic taken earlier in the year at Marholm on the ECML with the underpass work getting started.

 

John.

 

 

Hmm, sorry John I feel the need to challenge your statement, purely in the interest of discourse and friendly debate...natch. 

 

March - Spalding closed in nineteeneightyfrozentodeath because it was (apparently) economically unviable. If it had been left open or even mothballed, how much to maintain/reopen over the years it wasn't needed - to when it was? Including accounting for inflation?

 

Plus then the costs of maintaining a lengthy diversion instead of a relatively small footprint rail flyunder.

 

If anything, the biggest loss to rail conflict avoidance in the Peterborough area was the omission of the M&GN flyover North of the station?

 

C6T. 

[John Tomlinson]

2 hours ago, Classsix T said:

Hmm, sorry John I feel the need to challenge your statement, purely in the interest of discourse and friendly debate...natch. 

 

March - Spalding closed in nineteeneightyfrozentodeath because it was (apparently) economically unviable. If it had been left open or even mothballed, how much to maintain/reopen over the years it wasn't needed - to when it was? Including accounting for inflation?

 

Plus then the costs of maintaining a lengthy diversion instead of a relatively small footprint rail flyunder.

 

If anything, the biggest loss to rail conflict avoidance in the Peterborough area was the omission of the M&GN flyover North of the station?

 

C6T. 

I don't have any costings for keeping the line open. If you do they would be interesting to see. Given that it runs through flat countryside with few earthworks or bridges I suspect not a huge amount. In terms of expense you'd have to factor in as well the savings from not having to do the massive upgrade to the Peterborough - Spalding line completed a few years back.

 

A number of closures took place in the '80's of ostensibly "economically unviable" lines, plus a lot of rationalisations on junctions and taking double tracks down to single also four down to three or two. I don't know if you were around at the time but it seemed fairly clear to many that much of this was politically motivated. The Tories under Thatcher didn't like the railways which they saw as of the past and also containing some nasty militant trade unions. There was even a national report by a consultant, IIRC by the name of Sherman, who wanted to close much of the system and convert it to roads, a kind of Beeching 2, which proved too much even for the spirit of the times.

 

The M&GN closure was 1959, two and a half decades before March - Spalding. I've no idea what condition this bridge was in, or what loads it could take bearing in mind the somewhat bucolic nature of the M&GN.

 

I don't understand "maintaining a lengthy diversion" as Spalding to March is one side of a triangle whereas Spalding - Peterborough - March is two. As you will be aware nearly all the freight traffic today is en route to/from Felixstowe. In fact the reason for the diveunder at Werrington is to reach the west side of the ECML in order to gain the March line.

 

John.

[pete_mcfarlane]

14 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

A number of closures took place in the '80's of ostensibly "economically unviable" lines, plus a lot of rationalisations on junctions and taking double tracks down to single also four down to three or two. I don't know if you were around at the time but it seemed fairly clear to many that much of this was politically motivated. The Tories under Thatcher didn't like the railways which they saw as of the past and also containing some nasty militant trade unions. There was even a national report by a consultant, IIRC by the name of Sherman, who wanted to close much of the system and convert it to roads, a kind of Beeching 2, which proved too much even for the spirit of the times.

 

Were there many closures? I can only think of this line and the Tunbridge Wells West branch closing to passengers (and the TWW line has since reopened as a heritage railway). 

[Catkins]

9 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

I don't have any costings for keeping the line open. If you do they would be interesting to see. Given that it runs through flat countryside with few earthworks or bridges I suspect not a huge amount. In terms of expense you'd have to factor in as well the savings from not having to do the massive upgrade to the Peterborough - Spalding line completed a few years back.

 

A number of closures took place in the '80's of ostensibly "economically unviable" lines, plus a lot of rationalisations on junctions and taking double tracks down to single also four down to three or two. I don't know if you were around at the time but it seemed fairly clear to many that much of this was politically motivated. The Tories under Thatcher didn't like the railways which they saw as of the past and also containing some nasty militant trade unions. There was even a national report by a consultant, IIRC by the name of Sherman, who wanted to close much of the system and convert it to roads, a kind of Beeching 2, which proved too much even for the spirit of the times.

 

The M&GN closure was 1959, two and a half decades before March - Spalding. I've no idea what condition this bridge was in, or what loads it could take bearing in mind the somewhat bucolic nature of the M&GN.

 

John.

John, I'm going to have to disagree with your statement, that I've highlighted in red.

The line from March to Spalding crosses fenland, with numerous drains, a requirement to provide solid foundations that don't sink, the Rivers Nene, The Nene (New Cut), and Welland, along with two main roads (A47 and A141) at Guyhirn , all that costs a lot of money, especially maintaining a foundation that will keep sinking into the fens.

The 1980's consultant you refer to was called Serpell, and he produced a report in 1982 that proposed closing the ECML north of Newcastle!! (he did get a knighthood for it though)

 

The M&GN was as much a politically motivated closure, as it was a cost saving exercise. Most of the former M&GN formation from Peterborough to the outskirts of Norwich has been used for road improvement, including the site of the old bridge at Werrington - the site is now where the A47 crosses the ECML and A15.

[ess1uk]

1 hour ago, Catkins said:

 

 

 

The M&GN was as much a politically motivated closure, as it was a cost saving exercise. Most of the former M&GN formation from Peterborough to the outskirts of Norwich has been used for road improvement, including the site of the old bridge at Werrington - the site is now where the A47 crosses the ECML and A15.

I’m Confused  where you mean

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, Catkins said:

John, I'm going to have to disagree with your statement, that I've highlighted in red.

The line from March to Spalding crosses fenland, with numerous drains, a requirement to provide solid foundations that don't sink, the Rivers Nene, The Nene (New Cut), and Welland, along with two main roads (A47 and A141) at Guyhirn , all that costs a lot of money, especially maintaining a foundation that will keep sinking into the fens.

The 1980's consultant you refer to was called Serpell, and he produced a report in 1982 that proposed closing the ECML north of Newcastle!! (he did get a knighthood for it though)

 

The M&GN was as much a politically motivated closure, as it was a cost saving exercise. Most of the former M&GN formation from Peterborough to the outskirts of Norwich has been used for road improvement, including the site of the old bridge at Werrington - the site is now where the A47 crosses the ECML and A15.

Serpell was a retired former very senior civil servant, who was appointed by Thatcher to come up with a number of plans, whose common feature was the reduction of the size of the British railway network. I believe he had been involved in 'The Reshaping of Britain's Railways'under Beeching, 

Sir Alfred Sherman was involved in several groups, one of which advocated converting railways into express bus/coach routes; one such route was that into Marylebone.

[John Tomlinson]

2 hours ago, Catkins said:

John, I'm going to have to disagree with your statement, that I've highlighted in red.

The line from March to Spalding crosses fenland, with numerous drains, a requirement to provide solid foundations that don't sink, the Rivers Nene, The Nene (New Cut), and Welland, along with two main roads (A47 and A141) at Guyhirn , all that costs a lot of money, especially maintaining a foundation that will keep sinking into the fens.

The 1980's consultant you refer to was called Serpell, and he produced a report in 1982 that proposed closing the ECML north of Newcastle!! (he did get a knighthood for it though)

 

The M&GN was as much a politically motivated closure, as it was a cost saving exercise. Most of the former M&GN formation from Peterborough to the outskirts of Norwich has been used for road improvement, including the site of the old bridge at Werrington - the site is now where the A47 crosses the ECML and A15.

I do take your point about the Fenland drainage. Are you aware of similar expense for say March to Whittlesey or March to Ely, not being in the industry I don't know what a typical maintenance budget is say per mile per annum in the area? What we do know is that the new diveunder cost was estimated at £200million before starting, and we'll see how this pans out when the project is complete, it might stick to budget, it might not!

 

You're right about Serpell being the report that was widely discussed. There was also a Sir Alfred Sherman, who co-founded the Cenntre for Policy Studies think tank with Keith Joseph in 1974, and was a close adviser to Margaret Thatcher on economic matters, as something of a free market guru. Although I can't find the reference I'm sure a paper he did proposed the closure of the WCML and its conversion to a second M6/ M1. Fortunately this was around the time he had started to fall from favour.

 

I'd long wondered where the M&GN went, having seen an aerial picture of north Peterborough in the '50's the New England complex seemed more or less where the countryside started, so it makes a lot of sense that the ECML crossover was as you describe. The city has obviously changed massively since the '50's, I first went to Peterborough to do rail photography in 1978 and my pics on the south side around Fletton are now totally unrecognisable compared to the place today.

 

Re. Pete Mcfarlane's query, other closures that spring to mind from the '80's, off the top of my head - Woodhead from Hadfield to Penistone, the Lincoln avoiding line (which would now be rather useful), and the LD&EC east of High Marnham to Lincoln, no doubt there are others.

 

John.

[Catkins]

20 hours ago, ess1uk said:

I’m Confused  where you mean

It's the bridge known as Rhubarb Bridge by the trading estates.
Or do you mean the rest of it?

[Welly]

This video of the Spalding - March line was filmed back in 1982, put on VHS in 1992 and was uploaded today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsxmEO6xAcw

[Welly]

Video of track recovery trains in action from the Spalding end in early 1985 - https://youtu.be/ckVQCRg9Aj8?t=348

 

I now know that 31109 was the very last locomotive to enter Spalding from the March line.

[Oldddudders]

On 28/06/2019 at 22:05, pete_mcfarlane said:

 

Were there many closures? I can only think of this line and the Tunbridge Wells West branch closing to passengers (and the TWW line has since reopened as a heritage railway). 

Woodside to Selsdon, I think.

[31A]

Also Elderslie-Kilmacolm (subsequently reopened as far as Paisley Canal).

 

[andyman7]

On 28/06/2019 at 21:05, pete_mcfarlane said:

 

Were there many closures? I can only think of this line and the Tunbridge Wells West branch closing to passengers (and the TWW line has since reopened as a heritage railway). 

 

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Woodside to Selsdon, I think.

Whilst nothing like the level of the 60s or early 70s, a common feature of many closures in the 1980s was the inability to fund replacement of worn out assets. In many cases a resignalling/renewal project meant that chords or lines were removed to save the cost of replacing points etc. For example, the BedPan resignalling and electrification caused the loss of the Kentish Town chord onto the Barking line and the Hemelite branch at Harpenden. In Linconshire, March-Spalding and the Lincoln Avoiding LIne closure took out infrastructure that would have required investment. Tunbridge Wells West, Woodside-Selsdon, Kilmalcolm and Clayton West all closed between 1983 and 1985, the first two had worn out assets and the last two had funding withdrawn by local authorities. The Sheffield-Huddersfield servicesurvived by the skin of it's teeth by being rerouted away from the Deepcar line with the loss of the Woodhead route (another one with infrastructure needing renewal that closed instead). Don't forget too that the Settle-Carlisle was proposed for closure because of the state of Ribblehead viaduct. And Marylebone was proposed for closure but was reprieved and resignalled/modernised. In terms of route mileage, the 1980s saw the loss of significant freight only mileage too.

[royaloak]

On 28/06/2019 at 21:05, pete_mcfarlane said:

 

Were there many closures? I can only think of this line and the Tunbridge Wells West branch closing to passengers (and the TWW line has since reopened as a heritage railway). 

Filton Bank at Bristol had 2 tracks removed, recently reinstated at great expense and disruption.

 

Edit-

A lot of the 'closures' were either closing 2 tracks where 4 existed or singling where 2 tracks existed, there was a lot of that going on.

Edited October 12, 2019 by royaloak

[Railpassion]

 

Forfar also closed in the 80s. 

These closures were the tail end of a policy of reduction of the network to the minimum politically acceptable size. Amounts saved were negligible and 10 years or so later, money poured into rail so that by the late 1990s we were putting in 400% more money for roughly the same network.

March /Spalding should have been retained at least as a single track line to maintain the route.