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West Highland Line V4, a 1980's West Highland Line layout


young37215
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Mmm, several hours later and the DPST switch is installed. Electrically there are now two distinct sections with power on/off capability on one of them. On first start up of track power the Cab Control spurious short was still evident, subsequently it was not. I fear the power separation into 2 districts is not the solution I hoped for. I have no idea what to do next, some head scratching is required.


Pictures show the DPST switch with both + and - wires cut as described by ISW. 


 

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23 hours ago, ISW said:

What's the driving force behind the change? I ask as I understood it having different power districts is to enable one area to have a short circuit without affecting all the others. Hence the requirement for an SCD (short circuit detector) on each power district.

 

 

The driving force is to stop the spurious shorts Cab Control senses on applying track power which probably arises because the short circuit protection treats the start up power surge as a short and cuts out. I understand that your description of typical power districts is the normal reason for their creation and would have installed circuit breakers to my 2 districts but at £40 a time for PSX solid state ones I considered that the cost benefit did not stack up. 

 

I am still not certain that a booster is the solution, if it is then I will buy an ESU one so that I have all products for control from one manufacturer. The spurious short is intermittent and once power is up and running CC's 7 Amp output has no problem in providing sufficent power for all of my locos. The question I need to find the answer to is how do I persuade CC that the start up power draw is not a short! It is really frustrating because on some occassions I can apply track power straight away, on others it takes many attempts before CC allows power. I am currently investigating a PSX circuit breaker again which additionally claims to have in built capability to determine if the short is a real one or simply the initial in rush on start up. 

  

 Watch this space....

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1 hour ago, young37215 said:

and would have installed circuit breakers to my 2 districts but at £40 a time for PSX solid state ones I considered that the cost benefit did not stack up. 

Rob,

 

That did seem to be a lot of money for a short circuit detection module, and which lead me to using the self-built MERG kit #59 at only ~£12 a time. Plus you get the 'fun' of building / assembling / soldering the circuit board together ...

 

Ian

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PSX claim that their circuit breaker has adaptive load reset which will  should address the spike in power on start up. I have managed to get my hands on two scrounged temporarily from a friend meaning its more time to be spent on wires again today!

 

Having become thoroughly hacked off with the electrical challenges and learning opportunities, I gave up and ran some trains instead. 37017 shuffles loaded Grampus out of the siding at Crianlarich.

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited by young37215
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1 hour ago, young37215 said:

37017 shuffles loaded Grampus out of the siding at Crianlarich.

 

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Thanks for today's pictures, Rob, that answers a long standing question that has always puzzled me ...."how long is the Crianlarich headshunt ?" ?.... as it never looks to me to be more than long enough for a Class 37 and a medium length wagon, which when I have seen photos of longer trains or vehicles in the Engineers' sidings has always left me wondering how they were worked in or out. A 37 + 4 Grampus seems practicable to me.

 

Afraid that I can't offer any help with the electrical 'Black Magic' ....other than make an offering on your behalf at my nearest stone circle ! Good luck.

 

Regards,

Ian.

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2 hours ago, young37215 said:

Having become thoroughly hacked off with the electrical challenges and learning opportunities, I gave up and ran some trains instead.

Rob,

 

So why is it that when I get "... hacked off with the electrical challenges ..." the model railway is always in an electrical state that means I cannot run trains! I'll add that to the list of Sod's Laws.

 

Ian

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On 12/04/2021 at 09:48, 03060 said:

how long is the Crianlarich headshunt ?

 

a lot shorter than the siding! The Grampus rake of load 8 which was in the siding was split in two to enable it to be extracted. Picture shows the two halves about to be coupled back together. The train then sets back to the signal before taking the usual route through the station as it headed north.

 

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1 hour ago, ISW said:

Rob,

 

So why is it that when I get "... hacked off with the electrical challenges ..." the model railway is always in an electrical state that means I cannot run trains! I'll add that to the list of Sod's Laws.

 

Ian

 

It must be down to my clean living life style! Alternatively it could be that I did not mention the 10 minutes of irritation and frustration that it took to connect track power before I could run trains. Fortunately from several years of trouble free operations I know that my wiring is robust and that my issues relate solely to the controller. If I had not had this experience to reassure me, I dread to think what I would be like with the short circuit problem. 

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Another day of challenges with electrics saw the removal of the DPST switch and the creation of 2 sub power districts protected by the installation of 2 PSX circuit breakers. Re-reading the last sentence makes it sound like I have an understanding of electrical stuff which is a gross misrepresentation of reality. I am totally out of my depth and reliant on the goodwill of others to help me try and find a solution. All of the detective work so far arrives at the conclusion that the intermittent power start problem is caused by Cab Control's short circuit protection which interprets the high power draw at start up caused by the chips all grabbing power for their capacitors at the same time as a short. I need to find out what it is that CC measures and treats as a short to move forward.

 

Having managed to extract the Grampus from the sidings, 37017 then departed in a northerly direction with the loaded wagons. The 3rd picture shows the western platform where I have added seats, adverts and waste bins which are the extent of the detail the various reference pictures I have show as being required. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited by young37215
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Sorry to hear about your ongoing issues with the startup of your layout.

 

The problem you are experiencing is known as "in rush current" and a good reflection of the quality of a DCC system is its ability to cope with it. I struggled with the same problem on my layout (thread here if you're interested) and dabbled with the PSX units but unfortunately, they did not solve it and I ended up selling them. The problem is that if the in rush current lies between what the PSX units will handle and what the Cab Control unit can't, then you will still get the problem. The PSX units can have their trip currents adjusted but if you make it too low then you find that they will constantly trip out, so all you've done is moved the problem to a different piece of hardware.

 

I'm afraid that the only solution you may be able to find is to change your core DCC system for one that it is able to handle the in rush current generated by your layout; this is precisely the route that I took and whilst the initial up-front cost was high, it was has more than paid off in terms of reliability. My system comprises the following:

  • Digikeijs DR5000 Command Station; the track output is used to drive the accessory bus only.
  • 2 x Lenz LV103 Boosters using TR150 (5amp) power supplies; I have divided my layout into two power districts, with an LV103 dedicated to each. The LV103 sit on LocoNet using a DR5039 converter.
  • 3 x LS Digitial 5410 Reverse Loop Modules

Since investing in this hardware, I have had zero in rush current problems and for me, there is simply no better quality than Lenz; yes, it is one of the more expensive brands but you get what you pay for. I doubt I will ever need to change my LV103 units, especially as they come with a lifetime warranty. You will notice that I intentionally do not use circuit breakers, just the two boosters to provide adequate layout power (although to be honest, even on my triple-deck layout, one LV103 probably would have been sufficient) and reverse loop modules (which I am guessing would not be relevant to you).

 

In terms of what my layout can handle, the roster of locomotives is as follows:

  • 5 x Big Boys
  • 2 x Challengers
  • 3 x Other Steam Locomotives
  • 9 x Diesels
  • 17 x Illuminated Coaches

Every locomotive DCC sound equipped and lighted. I do not know how that compares to your layout but with all locomotives just idling, the current draw is in excess of 1A, so you can imagine what the in rush current at startup is likely to be..(!)

 

I would strongly recommend that you give DCC Train Automation a call to discuss your problem and find a solution. They have resolved every problem that I have thrown at them and what they don't know about DCC is not worth knowing:

 

https://www.dcctrainautomation.co.uk/

 

I have no connection to this firm other than as a very satisfied customer.

 

Hope that helps - good luck!

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I have asked ESU technical support for information relating to the short circuit protection in Cab Control. ESU have not responded as yet so for now I will leave matters as they are with the PSX's in situ for a few days in the hope that ESU respond. The layout is perfectly usable once CC decides to allow track power to be started.

 

The first southbound train of the day in 1981 was the 0700 Mallaig to Glasgow seen at Mallaig with 37081. It has been my intention to crack on with finishing the scenery on the Mallaig section as my next project but I have become distracted by the electrical issues. Maybe I should start the scenic work which might act as a pleasant distraction from the electrics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The power problem is one I have experienced. 

 

My old NCE system ran with the 2 PSX's with no problem.  However the NCE system did not like the startup and the PSX's covered that with no problem.   Some times on startup one of the PSX's would drop out and all would start fine, I would just need to turn on the one PSX.

 

Now the NCE was limited to about 2amps and a little limited in it ability to deal with computer contro  so after talking with James at DCC Automation I went for the DR5000 to replace the NCE. 

 

The DR5000 had plenty of amps but it did not like the start up at all, I believe this was the inrush current issue that has been mentioned above.  It would take a couple of attempts to get the DR5000 to go online and it really got me annoyed.

 

So the Dr5000 was much more sensitive than the old NCE system, and I could not get the PSX's to resolve the issue.  In fact because I had them set to a slower cutout (because of other issues) the DR5000 would always cut out first.  So hence they ended up spare as they were not helping.   I had tried turning the sensitivity down with no change.

 

Then James suggested using a DR5033 booster for the track and let the DR5000 stay as an accessory bus.  And that sorted it in in one go.  However it was another £100 spend without knowing if it would solve it.

 

Now it boots up without any issues, it was just an expensive way of doing it and having an accessory bus at 5 amps was overkill.  But it works.

 

I know the PSX's have some sort of inrush protection but I do not know how to sort that.  Kevin at Coastal DCC who sold them to me may be able to answer that, he is all knowing with that kit.

 

Regards

 

Doug

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I was out for much of yesterday so little done and no response from ESU so far. On this and another thread I have received lots of constructive counsel about the issue of power surges on start up. It does seem to be a more common occurence than I had first appreciated and not just with ESU equipment; it would be great to find a solution to cover not just my problems but most, if not all eventualities. I have bought 2 more DPST switches with a view to further dividing up the power BUS into more sub-districts to see if this works. It will be a bit of a pain installing them because it is the main fiddle yard that needs to be divided and this is all wired from a single common point. It is nothing that cannot be done with insulation joints and more power connections, just a PIA and time that I would rather spend on other modelling work.

 

37011 had charge of 7B02, 0606 Sighthill to Mallaig Junction Yard seen arriving at Garelochead.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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20045 shunts an S&T engineers train out of the sidings and onto the headshunt at Crianlarich where it waits for 37049 to arrive with the down sleeper. After 37049 departs 20045 exits the headshunt and heads for the Oban line.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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A few more views of 37049 at Crianlarich on the down sleeper. Intriguingly Cab Control started track power twice yesterday at the first time of asking leaving me wondering if the PSX are having a positive effect. I doubt that the Tam Valley soft start module I have bought will be here before the middle of next week meaning I have several further start ups to test the theory. 

 

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4 hours ago, young37215 said:

Table 227 from 1981 says it all for today. 

 

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Rob,

 

Interestingly, in the 1975 Timetable Table 227 includes services from Edinburgh as well as Glasgow, to/from Mallaig & Fort William. Still no Sunday service though ...

 

Ian

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On 18/04/2021 at 15:07, ISW said:

Interestingly, in the 1975 Timetable Table 227 includes services from Edinburgh as well as Glasgow, to/from Mallaig & Fort William

 

I have a 1975 public timetable which shows just the overnight sleeper as a through train from Edinburgh. The sleeper started at Kings Cross meaning that it would have to transit Edinburgh on its journey which makes the stop easy to understand. I am less familiar with mid 70's operations but the basics of any through train having to reverse at Glasgow Queen Street would not be any different. 

 

Back to business yesterday with trains running. Application of track power was quick, first push of the start button in the morning and second push in the afternoon. The Tam Valley soft start arrived late in the day which I aim to install today. I am still waiting responses from ESU regarding the short circuit trip settings on the Cab Control and DCC Specialities with an explanation of what adaptive load reset is and how it works. 

 

37264 arrives at Crianlarich with 8B05, 1449 Sighthill to Oban which will cross the opposite working from Oban here. Note the wonky chimney on the station building in the last picture. The chimney is not glued down hence it is prone to getting moved by careless hands!

 

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1 hour ago, young37215 said:

 

I have a 1975 public timetable which shows just the overnight sleeper as a through train from Edinburgh. The sleeper started at Kings Cross meaning that it would have to transit Edinburgh on its journey which makes the stop easy to understand. I am less familiar with mid 70's operations but the basics of any through train having to reverse at Glasgow Queen Street would not be any different. 

 

Back to business yesterday with trains running. Application of track power was quick, first push of the start button in the morning and second push in the afternoon. The Tam Valley soft start arrived late in the day which I aim to install today. I am still waiting responses from ESU regarding the short circuit trip settings on the Cab Control and DCC Specialities with an explanation of what adaptive load reset is and how it works. 

 

37264 arrives at Crianlarich with 8B05, 1449 Sighthill to Oban which will cross the opposite working from Oban here. Note the wonky chimney on the station building in the last picture. The chimney is not glued down hence it is prone to getting moved by careless hands!

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Brilliant pictures. You have caught the character of the location perfectly. I particularly like the very tall signal.

Cheers

David

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37051 approaches Crianlarich from the Oban line with 8V80, 1605 ex Oban to Sighthill where it passes 37264. Crews change over here hence the stopping in the middle of the platform to minimise the walking required. 

 

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I really want to kick on with some more scenic work but am enjoying 'playing trains' too much. I have beeen threatening to do more with Mallaig since the start of the year where the station needs more detailing and the rocky areas on the station throat are a long way from finished. With the benefit of operational experience I want to add 50mm to the baseboard at the coastal end of the station to extend the main platform by a similar amount which will enable trains to sit deeper in the station to enhance the feel of the section.

 

37033 had charge of the teatime train, 2B12 1630 from Fort William seen arriving at Mallaig before returning with the last train of the day back to Fort William.

 

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