West Highland Line V4, a 1980's West Highland Line layout

[young37215]

21 hours ago, 03060 said:

 

Glad that you've posted this, Rob, as I was going to ask you how you were going about this upgrade project which you mentioned a couple of weeks ago on another thread.

 

Looking at the two makes of wagons side by side and studying photos taken on the WHL and in one or two wagon books then a possible solution which may solve your running issues and give a more accurrate model of the vehicles used on the WHL would be to mount the Bachmann bodies onto the Lima chassis, although this wouldn't help recover the finances.

 

The reason I say this is that in all of the photos that I've seen of the ex-grain wagons on the WHL they all have the Pedastal suspension units as opposed to the leaf spring type but also they all have the 8 ribbed body (Bachmann) instead of the 5 ribbed (Lima) type. I've read that they were coded PAF.

 

The Lima wagon as it is looks a good representation of the Grainflow liveried wagons which did find their way onto the WHL in the late '80s. The Bachmann one is a good model of a PAV.  What I haven't found out yet is when the suspension units were changed, I need to have a look at Paul Bartlett's site.

 

The reason that I am 'so' interested is that I have a rake of the Peco N gauge wagons which are similar to the Bachmann version and have been looking for a source of suitable replacement  Pedastal suspension chassis, I can then use the old leaf spring chassis for some scratchbuilt PRAs or maybe have a crack at the PAB ex-limestone hoppers that were also used on the Alumina traffic, if you could find a 3D printed body in 00 this may be an option for you ? However I will be more than happy if someone can prove me wrong and show the leaf spring versions of the PAFs on the WHL as it will save me some work ! 

 

Regards,

Ian.

 

I had a read of the Larkin article on aluminium which is of limited use to me as it misses out on my time window and the use of grain wagons.  I have added details of my continued investigations/research on the Alcan traffic thread. In my search I have only found 1 PAV/F with UIC suspension converted for alumina use on Paul Bartlett's website. Of course there may be more but, like 03060, the bulk of pictures I have seen show WHL alumina consists exclusively made up of wagons with pedestal suspension. 

 

The suggestion regarding my swapping bodies and chassis is a logical one but, even in the event it was doable, does not work for me as the old Lima chassis is rather cride by modern standards and the large couplings were one of the main drivers behind my change. I would like to have the correct chassis with pedestal suspension; is there a Bachmann wagon that could serve as a donor I wonder? I shall have a look, who knows this might be the solution to the coupling issue at the same time!

 

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by young37215

[tonyg3]

Bachmann  Website shows 3 types of screw fitted couplings  On my old Trix Whisky wagons  I use  36025 small Coupling  on one end  and the old Mainline coupling on the other end

[young37215]

On 25/06/2021 at 16:33, ISW said:

Rob,

 

You may be able to get away with simply enlarging the 2 side holes in the tension lock, thus allowing it to pivot a bit but limited by the lugs. Such a change would be just about reversible. At least it does not change the main body of the wagon.

 

Ian

 

A good idea, filing down the edge of the coupling would increase the width and allow wider pivoting.

 

19 hours ago, tonyg3 said:

Bachmann  Website shows 3 types of screw fitted couplings  On my old Trix Whisky wagons  I use  36025 small Coupling  on one end  and the old Mainline coupling on the other end

 

Looks an even better option, the Bachmann large coupling 36-009 is a possibiility. I need to find out what the dimensions are of these and which the existing couplings are. I had not considered swapping the coupling which would be the simplest way of resolving the issue although it would not address the suspension/chassis dilemna. That said I can live with the chassis if the wagons will run without derailing.  

[ISW]

11 hours ago, young37215 said:

I had not considered swapping the coupling which would be the simplest way of resolving the issue although it would not address the suspension/chassis dilemna.

Rob,

 

Have you considered using the coupling from the Lima wagons? I have a 'bag' of those surplus to requirements (all my Lima wagons retrofitted with Kadees), and your welcome to them if they are suitable.

 

Ian

[young37215]

9 hours ago, ISW said:

Rob,

 

Have you considered using the coupling from the Lima wagons? I have a 'bag' of those surplus to requirements (all my Lima wagons retrofitted with Kadees), and your welcome to them if they are suitable.

 

Ian

 

Hi Ian

 

The large Lima couplings are one of the main reasons for my 'upgrade' to Bachmann's grain wagons as I find them obtrusive so thank you but no thank you to your kind offer. I am hopeful that the larger Bachmann 36-009 couplings will not be as big and lumpy as the Lima's. I want to find a local shop with them in stock so that I can see them in the flesh before buying the 2 sets I need to complete the job.    

 

Rob

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by young37215

[SHerr]

One other option with the couplings, Parkside used to do the NEM housing as a separate accessory (the one the you push the adapter up into rather than the one that you just slot the fishtail straight in. Sorry for the dreadful description, they presumably have a name but I'm not sure what it is!

 

With that you will have a bit of play within the coupling and be able to use smaller ones.

 

Link below - no connection to Kernow and others probably have them, just the first one that came up in Google.

 

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/27251/PA34-Parkside-Dundas-Mounting-Blocks-for-Bachmann-36-027

[SHerr]

7 hours ago, SHerr said:

One other option with the couplings, Parkside used to do the NEM housing as a separate accessory (the one the you push the adapter up into rather than the one that you just slot the fishtail straight in. Sorry for the dreadful description, they presumably have a name but I'm not sure what it is!

 

With that you will have a bit of play within the coupling and be able to use smaller ones.

 

Link below - no connection to Kernow and others probably have them, just the first one that came up in Google.

 

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/27251/PA34-Parkside-Dundas-Mounting-Blocks-for-Bachmann-36-027

Having posted this link I then noticed something else on Google, initially a range of NEM sockets to go on the Bachmann type fixed coupling holder. The link was to an eBay page then when clicking on the sellers other items there appears to be a fascinating range of NEM adapters including for Lima plug in pins. Search mattymay05 in sellers - looks like the answers to all your needs - I will certainly be ordering a number of different ones!

[ISW]

10 hours ago, young37215 said:

 

Hi Ian

 

The large Lima couplings are one of the main reasons for my 'upgrade' to Bachmann's grain wagons as I find them obtrusive so thank you but no thank you to your kind offer. I am hopeful that the larger Bachmann 36-009 couplings will not be as big and lumpy as the Lima's. I want to find a local shop with them in stock so that I can see them in the flesh before buying the 2 sets I need to complete the job.    

 

Rob

 

Rob,

 

Initially I was sure I had a 'bag' of Bachmann 36-009s as I'm always taking them off wagons to be replaced by Kadees. However, a looks through my 'spares department' didn't throw anything up. I must have chucked them out, although I kept the little springs and screws as they can be useful. 

 

Ian

[03060]

Morning Rob and all,

 

I hope you don't mind if I drag us back a few months to when we were discussing where the ballast came from that is used on the WHL and IIRC somewhere in Ayrshire was the call, well just by further way of confirmation of this I've just been looking deeper into one of the photos in Key Publishing's Modelling BR Engineers Vol.1 taken at Crianlarich in 1977 of a Trout ballast hopper (p.35) and noticed that under the large H on the side is stencilled 'Empty to B.R. Sidings Irvine'

 

Regards,

Ian.

 

BTW - Vol.2 of this publication is imminent according to a recent publicity email from Hattons.

Edited June 29, 2021 by 03060
Extra info added.

[BoD]

43 minutes ago, 03060 said:

BTW - Vol.2 of this publication is imminent according to a recent publicity email from Hattons.

It is available on the Key website now.

It covers the replacement of the older wagons and so may not be of direct relevance to WH4 but is interesting nontheless.

[young37215]

17 hours ago, SHerr said:

Having posted this link I then noticed something else on Google, initially a range of NEM sockets to go on the Bachmann type fixed coupling holder. The link was to an eBay page then when clicking on the sellers other items there appears to be a fascinating range of NEM adapters including for Lima plug in pins. Search mattymay05 in sellers - looks like the answers to all your needs - I will certainly be ordering a number of different ones!

 

I am aware that it is possible to replace the Lima couplings and install NEM styled ones although I have no experience of doing this. A friend gave me some of the NEM replacements to try a while back but I have not got around to fitting them. The Lima grain wagons have served me well and with a little work I am sure they can be further improved, Railtec do transfers that would add detail and the couplings can be upgraded as people have identified. There is no one specific reason for my change to the Bachmann grain wagons, it was a combination of factors that led me to the decision to upgrade. The more I am thinking about it, the more I coming to the conclusion that I will run 2 rakes, 1 Lima and 1 Bachmann which will enable the running of up and down trains passing on the WHL as per the 1984 WTT. I just have to figure out if I have the siding capacity to store another 8 wagons!

 

[03060]

4 hours ago, BoD said:

It is available on the Key website now.

It covers the replacement of the older wagons and so may not be of direct relevance to WH4 but is interesting nontheless.

 

I looked in my local WHS yesterday but they didn't have any, nor is it yet in stock at Hattons.

 

The last time I pre-ordered and paid from Key I don't believe that I ever received the item, the Wagonload bookazine, as I came across a copy in Smiths a couple of months later and didn't recognise the photos in it, particularly the WHL timber photos. If it was ever delivered it either quickly found its way into one of my many piles of books and is yet to be re-discovered ....or the wife filed it in the green bin to stop me spending any more money !! 

 

I must point out that I've never had any other issues when ordering from Key Publishing and strongly suspect the issue was at my end, most of all because I'd forgotten that I'd even ordered it until I rechecked my statements ! 

[young37215]

On 29/06/2021 at 07:03, 03060 said:

Morning Rob and all,

 

I hope you don't mind if I drag us back a few months to when we were discussing where the ballast came from that is used on the WHL and IIRC somewhere in Ayrshire was the call, well just by further way of confirmation of this I've just been looking deeper into one of the photos in Key Publishing's Modelling BR Engineers Vol.1 taken at Crianlarich in 1977 of a Trout ballast hopper (p.35) and noticed that under the large H on the side is stencilled 'Empty to B.R. Sidings Irvine'

 

Regards,

Ian.

 

BTW - Vol.2 of this publication is imminent according to a recent publicity email from Hattons.

 

Most interesting, I have the excellent bookazine but had not noticed the Trout at Crianlarich. This has cheered me up no end as I have a Trout in my rake of Heljan Dogfish and had always believed that ths was out of place on the WHL. Now I know better and can justify keeping the Trout. My order for engineers wagons vol 2 direct from Key was placed at the weekend; their recent spate of publications are all first class information and the reference material is very useful.

 

I dont think the reference to Irvine on the Trout sheds any more on the orgins of the WHL ballast, I suspect this was just the depot/base for the wagon. Several years ago ModelRail did an article on WHL ballast to coincide with the ModelRail Scotland. Try as I might, I cannot find the copy of the magazine which I am fairly sure included reference to a quarry where the pink/brown ballast came from. I shall keep looking for this in my pile of old magazines.

 

 

[03060]

There are photos of 3 individual Trout wagons taken at Crianlarich in 1977 on Paul Bartlett's excellent website and I've also seen photos of (probably) the same 3 vehicles together in Irishswissernie's collection, as all 3 have different livery variations they would make a nice rake.

 

PS- I've just googled 'Paul Bartlett Crianlarich' in images and it came back with another 1977 photo but of a Salmon with cranes fitted which may also be of interest to you.

Edited June 30, 2021 by 03060
Extra info added.

[David Bell]

39 minutes ago, young37215 said:

 Several years ago ModelRail did an article on WHL ballast to coincide with the ModelRail Scotland. Try as I might, I cannot find the copy of the magazine which I am fairly sure included reference to a quarry where the pink/brown ballast came from. I shall keep looking for this in my pile of old magazines.

 

 

Rob,

 

A quick search on the web reveals that the issue you are looking for is no 166 from March 2012.

Cheers

David

[young37215]

22 hours ago, 03060 said:

PS- I've just googled 'Paul Bartlett Crianlarich' in images and it came back with another 1977 photo but of a Salmon with cranes fitted which may also be of interest to you.

 

It is of interest, I have wanted to add one of the Flangeway Salmon's to the WHL4 fleet for a while and whilst in was fairly inevitable that Salmon's had been up the WHL, this provides hard evidence and the cranes are an added bonus. 

 

Key's latest bookazine arrived yesterday. I have not had much of a read as yet but it looks very good. I am particularly interested in the section on Cranes and Relayers which has some stuff about Cowans Sheldon cranes which are the only ones I have seen on the WHL. Although the era covered is at the end of my 1980-85 window it looks like another excellent piece of reference material. I will have a more extensive read of the whole bookazine over the next few days.

 

22 hours ago, David Bell said:

the issue you are looking for is no 166 from March 2012

 

I managed to find my copy although the article on ballast is silent on where the pink/brown comes from. I have in my mind that this was contained in an article somewhere but I cannot recall where or when this was. I have a large container filled with WHL articles covering many years, this looks like an opportunity to review some of these in the hope that I can find the ballast origins information.

 

[03060]

Cloburn Quarry in Lanark was mentioned earlier in the thread as a source of the red ballast which is why I thought the 'Return to B.R. Sidings Irvine' was particularly relevant.

 

The Salmon wagon with the cranes also creeps into one or two other photos on p.1 of the Crianlarich thread on here, taken by @arbealach in the mid 70's, just amazed that I'd not noticed it before.

 

Regards,

Ian.

Edited July 1, 2021 by 03060
Correction to photo source.

[young37215]

The larger Bachmann couplings arrived for the alumina wagons but did’nt resolve the buffer lock problem. The non pivoting couplings continue to cause the buffers to lock when transitioning into curves causing derailments. Whilst chaging couplings I discovered that one of the wagons already had the couplings end lugs cut off; the previous owner appears to have encountered similar problems to me. Under trial with the pivoting coupling wagon as the middle of a 3 wagon consist, all 3 wagons passed through the curves without derailing. I repeated the test on several occasions and am satisfied that this scenario works. I need to create a consist where every 2nd wagon has the couplings lugs removed which means removing the lugs from 3 more wagons: not ideal but if it works then so be it. At least I can use the original factory fitted, weathered couplings.
 

Larger Bachmann couplings compared against the factory fitted ones

Buffers still lock even on large radius curves and with larger couplings fitted

Edited July 3, 2021 by young37215

[37Oban]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought buffer locking was when the head of one buffer jammed behind the head of the one one on the adjacent vehicle when being propelled through reverse curves?  This doesn't look like buffer locking, especially as the vehicles are being pulled around the curve, rather it looks as if the buffer bodies and shanks are too long.  Easily rectified by either a) commit surgery and shorten the buffers, or, b) replace with shorter, or even sprung, buffers.

 

Roja

[ISW]

5 hours ago, young37215 said:

Larger Bachmann couplings compared against the factory fitted ones

Buffers still lock even on large radius curves and with larger couplings fitted

Rob,

 

If you took a hot soldering iron to the curved bit of the coupling it should be possible to 'stretch' it a bit, such that the wagons are just a tad further apart when coupled, enough to prevent the buffers contacting in your curves.

 

Ian

[SHerr]

22 hours ago, young37215 said:

The larger Bachmann couplings arrived for the alumina wagons but did’nt resolve the buffer lock problem. The non pivoting couplings continue to cause the buffers to lock when transitioning into curves causing derailments. Whilst chaging couplings I discovered that one of the wagons already had the couplings end lugs cut off; the previous owner appears to have encountered similar problems to me. Under trial with the pivoting coupling wagon as the middle of a 3 wagon consist, all 3 wagons passed through the curves without derailing. I repeated the test on several occasions and am satisfied that this scenario works. I need to create a consist where every 2nd wagon has the couplings lugs removed which means removing the lugs from 3 more wagons: not ideal but if it works then so be it. At least I can use the original factory fitted, weathered couplings.
 

Larger Bachmann couplings compared against the factory fitted ones

Buffers still lock even on large radius curves and with larger couplings fitted

A couple of other options, there are 2 lengths of the fixed couplings as per photo below, yours/Bachmann look like the shorter one. As per above the coupling looks too short so pushing the wagons apart. I presume you can order them, I happened to find it looking for something else.

 

the other option, after posting some of the links earlier in the week to the eBay seller, I ordered some of the slot in NEMs that arrived yesterday - mattymay05 is the seller. Photo below with an NEM tension lock which if anything pushes the coupling out too far but will certainly go round corners.

 

 

[young37215]

Having removed the lugs from 3 more grain wagons, a 7 wagon consist comprised respectively of 1 'out of the box' wagon then 1 with lugs removed ran successfully ran for 20 minutes around the lower loop without problems. The lower loop includes the reverse curve at Crianlarich indicating that my derailment issue has been resolved. The route of the problem appears to have been a combination of the non pivoting couplings and the lightweight model (Bachmann's grain wagon weighs 57g compared with a 90g VDA or the 77g Lima grain wagon) which meant that the radius of reverse 3rd radius curves could not be traversed without the couplings either lifting the wagon off of the track or locking as described by 37Oban above. The larger Bachmann couplings did not make any difference because the tension lock hook remains in a fixed position despite having a larger area in which it could move.  

 

My thanks to those who have suggested potential solutions, had one of the grain wagons not previously had its lugs removed I would have not been quite so keen to start hacking at the lugs. As it was I had a 'test' wagon which showed that removing the lugs was one effective way to solve the problem. I know the Bachmann grain wagon is an old design but its failings are disappointing for something with a £35 rrp and when most modern wagons have NEM couplings attached to bogies which pivot. I have bought a couple of 'ready to run' models of late (Heljan's ETHEL, Bachmann's grain wagon) that were not 'ready to run'. An indication that manufacturers have taken their eye off of the ball perhaps? 

 

Consist pictured at the same point as yesterdays, the pivot of the couplings means the buffers no longer contact each other

Bachmann coupling with 2 end lugs removed now pivots 

37012 with load 8 consist on test passes through the reverse curve at Crianlarich and heads north

 

 

Edited July 4, 2021 by young37215

[Dougjuk]

Excellent result Rob, look forward to trying it out.

 

Doug

[SHerr]

3 hours ago, young37215 said:

Having removed the lugs from 3 more grain wagons, a 7 wagon consist comprised respectively of 1 'out of the box' wagon then 1 with lugs removed ran successfully ran for 20 minutes around the lower loop without problems. The lower loop includes the reverse curve at Crianlarich indicating that my derailment issue has been resolved. The route of the problem appears to have been a combination of the non pivoting couplings and the lightweight model (Bachmann's grain wagon weighs 57g compared with a 90g VDA or the 77g Lima grain wagon) which meant that the radius of reverse 3rd radius curves could not be traversed without the couplings either lifting the wagon off of the track or locking as described by 37Oban above. The larger Bachmann couplings did not make any difference because the tension lock hook remains in a fixed position despite having a larger area in which it could move.  

 

My thanks to those who have suggested potential solutions, had one of the grain wagons not previously had its lugs removed I would have not been quite so keen to start hacking at the lugs. As it was I had a 'test' wagon which showed that removing the lugs was one effective way to solve the problem. I know the Bachmann grain wagon is an old design but its failings are disappointing for something with a £35 rrp and when most modern wagons have NEM couplings attached to bogies which pivot. I have bought a couple of 'ready to run' models of late (Heljan's ETHEL, Bachmann's grain wagon) that were not 'ready to run'. An indication that manufacturers have taken their eye off of the ball perhaps? 

 

Consist pictured at the same point as yesterdays, the pivot of the couplings means the buffers no longer contact each other

Bachmann coupling with 2 end lugs removed now pivots 

37012 with load 8 consist on test passes through the reverse curve at Crianlarich and heads north

 

 

Great news, the benefit of this rather than a longer coupling is you keep a nice sized gap. Now you just need to persuade someone to help us all and make a kit or RTR of the PAB’s to mix into the rake!

[03060]

Hopefully of interest to you aswell Rob but as Revolution are now taking orders for the Mullets and Parr track carrying wagons can I ask if anyone is aware of any photos of  them appearing on the WHL, please. I can only currently find photos of Salmons and one of my own shows a Sturgeon at FW, which makes me wonder if track being replaced on the WHL was built in situ from components or delivered to site ready made ?

 

Another one for the Engineer's trains ....I came across a B&W photo of a Mackerel hopper taken at Speen (Spean) Bridge in 1984 in Gulf Red livery this morning in Cheona's BR Wagons No.7 Engineer's Stock -1, p.22.

 

Regards,

Ian.