Darstaed Mk1 coaches for 7mm.

[deltic17]

I find these issues with the BSK shocking. I don't understand how any of us could accept it in that state. I don't agree with Jim's last comment. I respect that we all have different priorities and tolerances of inaccuracies, but this is madness I would think for most o gauge modellers. Why would I spend £750 for a set of 4 coaches, 2 of which are plain wrong and, as was said earlier, fictitious? That's enough money for me to care about this. Most of us care about accuracy here.

 

I hope Darstaed gets informed of this ridiculous issue.

 

Regards, Thomas Wallner

The BSK does need correcting - it would be suicide to just carry on with such a big error. I suspect they are on the edge of bringing out a good product that will sell well to the market place - but this error needs correcting - hopefully there are no other major errors in other designs - hopefully the ride height is all correct etc - they should publish some photos of the coaches which they plan to put into final production because us modellers are very good at spotting errors or suggesting enhancements before it is too late. Such a practice could lead to significantly higher sales.

 

Whilst we are all talking about it here - hopefully they are aware of it too? - has anyone spoken to them recently after Telford - maybe that was the delay announced a week or two ago????

 

Whilst speaking of the BSK - I don't really understand why in the pack of 4 for £750 there are 2 x BSK's - surely one would have been enough.

 

Anyway fingers crossed for some good news on these issues.

[djparkins]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. It may be a mirror image of what it should be, but looks to be quite a good representation of a BR Mark 1 brake nonetheless.

 

Jim -

 

But that is precisely my point - it isn't a good representaion of a BR Mk.1 Brake [be it a second, composite or first]. As I said, I can accept the other innacuracies might be liveable with for some, but how it can be so totally wrong and still be a "good representation" escapes me entirely. Perhaps you mean a caricature?

 

DJP/MMP

Edited September 5, 2017 by djparkins

[Titan]

I thought these were supposed to be finescale?

[Rugd1022]

Thanks for posting photos.......

 

Firstly these do look nice and the curvature/tumblehome looks pretty good or certainly as far as I can see from the photographs.

 

I'm more of a Blue & Grey expert although this minor observation applies probably not just to Blue & Grey - are the window frames a little bit too rounded/raised?. I think they should be a bit more flat but overall they have certainly seem to have captured the Mk1 well which is what us modellers want.

 

Finally I see on the ScaleLink web pages (lots of detail now and a good read) it states the Blue & Grey ones will come with Commonwealth bogies - whilst some of the later Mk1's had commonwealth bogies in the Blue/Grey era many/most? still ran with the BR Mk1 bogie so that is a oversight I think. It would be great if both options were available. I might have a chat with them if it is not too late!

 

For comparison of the window frames here are a couple of shots I took looking over the wall at Penzance back in June '07...

 

 

[deltic17]

For comparison of the window frames here are a couple of shots I took looking over the wall at Penzance back in June '07...

 

1015 #337.jpg

 

1015 #343.jpg

Thanks for the photos - that explains what I was trying to explain - the outside edges of the window frame are more flat and not raised.

 

It is not easy with Mk1's on O Guage.....I initially bought some Heljan ones but sold them back on after the shape issues. I then replaced them with Brassworks ones which are much better but 2 years later (after other things have jumped the queue) I still haven't got them painted/finished yet.

These new ones look promising - but basic errors need to be corrected first. Hopefully it is a one off error on the BSK.

Fingers crossed this can be corrected because in many other aspects they look pretty good.

Edited September 5, 2017 by deltic17

[jim.snowdon]

Jim -

 

But that is precisely my point - it isn't a good representaion of a BR Mk.1 Brake [be it a second, composite or first]. As I said, I can accept the other innacuracies might be liveable with for some, but how it can be so totally wrong and still be a "good representation" escapes me entirely. Perhaps you mean a caricature?

 

DJP/MMP

No. I mean a model of a left-handed BR Mk 1 Brake. they may not have existed, but it is, on the whole, a good model of one, and not everyone is going to get hung up on the fact that left-handed versions didn't exist.

 

Either way, we will all have to wait and see what Daerstead do about it.

 

Jim

[Captain Cuttle]

The photo in post No.28 is of what purports to be a Brake Second [bSK] - not a Brake Third!, or a Brake Composite. And even if it were, the sides on a BCK are also NOT mirror images of each other.

 

The BSK in the photo is of a coach that doesn't and hasn't existed. You are looking at what should be the corridor side and hence no lav. window present. That should be on the other side, but if the sides are indeed a mirror-image, then quite how that would work internally on a BSK I cannot imagine, unless the passengers are sharing a toilet! It is the most obvious of many glaring faults, but I won't list the twenty seven I've so far identified, as I know what happens to those who criticise RTR stuff.

 

Whilst I fully appreciate that many of the smaller inaccuracies won't matter too much if you just want a rake of coaches to run round the garden, I think it would be safe to assume that everyone reading this thread would 'draw the line' at buying a coach that is just wrong, to the point of being fictitous.

 

David Parkins

Modern Motive Power

So what are the twenty seven things you have found?

 

ATB

 

Alan

[djparkins]

So what are the twenty seven things you have found?

 

ATB

 

Alan

 

Alan,

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

I've got into enough trouble mentioning the fundamental body fault with the BSK, as it is!

 

OK - well I'll put them into the main category/number of faults - but as I have said, they are probably not that important if you simply want a rake to run round the garden. If you just want two or three coaches to be the centrepiece of your layout's passenger operation, then they might be.

 

Ends - four

Gangways - three

Brake cyl./underframe equipment arrangement - five

Doors - two

Windows - five

Roof - two

Bogies - three

dragbeams - three

 

And counting! - as you cannot see the undersides of the chassis/bogies - and you would also need to see the coach end layouts for each individual type of coach as well.

 

But I repeat, these things might not matter to everybody, and I fully accept that.

 

Anyway you asked me to list them, so I have. But don't believe me, as I know next to nothing about Mk.1 coaches! - instead, just take a look at the Keith Parkin book on Mk.1 Stock. All the information you need to make an informed decision as to whether these coaches will meet your needs is in that truly excellent reference book.

 

DJP/MMP

Edited September 6, 2017 by djparkins

[Darstaed]

The photo in post No.28 is of what purports to be a Brake Second [bSK] - not a Brake Third!, or a Brake Composite. And even if it were, the sides on a BCK are also NOT mirror images of each other.

 

The BSK in the photo is of a coach that doesn't and hasn't existed. You are looking at what should be the corridor side and hence no lav. window present. That should be on the other side, but if the sides are indeed a mirror-image, then quite how that would work internally on a BSK I cannot imagine, unless the passengers are sharing a toilet! It is the most obvious of many glaring faults, but I won't list the twenty seven I've so far identified, as I know what happens to those who criticise RTR stuff.

 

Whilst I fully appreciate that many of the smaller inaccuracies won't matter too much if you just want a rake of coaches to run round the garden, I think it would be safe to assume that everyone reading this thread would 'draw the line' at buying a coach that is just wrong, to the point of being fictitous.

 

David Parkins

Modern Motive Power

 

Dear David,

 

Thank you for your post, your keen observation has halted a serious error creeping into production. The samples shown are so called “T1” samples made of parts produced with the tooling to see if everything fits, fortunately production is still at the spraying/printing stage which by itself takes weeks to finish.

I had a meeting this afternoon with the etching people and they take two weeks to make new sides both for the B+C livery and the others. The seats are modular and can be moved in any direction. October 1^st to October 10^th are holidays here in China so shipment is now scheduled for the end of October.

I really appreciate constructive criticism of our products and gladly accept any advice, after all the better the product the better for all. If you could let me know what the other 27 faults are I would be grateful, you can email me @ : grabowsky@darstaed.com

The moment we have samples made up of the rest of the liveries I will publish them here for your kind perusal.

With our locomotives and coaches we usually include a booklet. The booklet for the MK coaches can be seen here :  http://darstaed.com/images/MK%20I%20-%20Booklet%20Final.pdf

Cheers,

Andries Grabowsky

Darstaed

[seeseerider]

Thank you Mr Grabowsky - it's great that you have read this thread and have offered your assistance.

[muddys-blues]

That's great to see someone in the food chain at Darstead taking an interest in what is being discussed on forums, it can only improve the final finish of the product.

 

Best regards

Craig

[djparkins]

Dear David,

 

Thank you for your post, your keen observation has halted a serious error creeping into production. The samples shown are so called “T1” samples made of parts produced with the tooling to see if everything fits, fortunately production is still at the spraying/printing stage which by itself takes weeks to finish.

I had a meeting this afternoon with the etching people and they take two weeks to make new sides both for the B+C livery and the others. The seats are modular and can be moved in any direction. October 1^st to October 10^th are holidays here in China so shipment is now scheduled for the end of October.

I really appreciate constructive criticism of our products and gladly accept any advice, after all the better the product the better for all. If you could let me know what the other 27 faults are I would be grateful, you can email me @ : grabowsky@darstaed.com

The moment we have samples made up of the rest of the liveries I will publish them here for your kind perusal.

With our locomotives and coaches we usually include a booklet. The booklet for the MK coaches can be seen here :  http://darstaed.com/images/MK%20I%20-%20Booklet%20Final.pdf

Cheers,

Andries Grabowsky

Darstaed

 

Hello Andries

 

It is good to know that you are changing the BSK sides. It will be both welcome and helpful to the RTR modellers on this forum, I’m sure.

 

As regards listing all the faults, I’m not sure how helpful this would be as you really can, I’m sure, see them all in the Keith Parkin book on Mk.1 stock published by HMRS, which you would surely have.

 

Mik.1 coaches are a bit of a minefield, and what is accurate or not is so dependent on which period of the long life of any coach you are modelling, but some fundamental features regarding the ends might be –

All the slatted/ridged end steps fitted on B/C liveried stock, whilst only the lower ones on blue/grey vehicles.

The other glaring fault is in the gangways. They were not open at the bottom, but have chequer plate floors – don’t want your passengers falling straight through onto the track! This might not matter between coaches but it will be very apparent on the end vehicles in a rake. There appears far too large a gap at the top of the gangway, between it, and the longer top step, which again, were removed along with the upper slatted steps, C. 1965.

Underframe-wise, you really need at least two different versions for the types of 64’ 6” stock you have announced, as the vac/cylinder positioning, V hanger shape and brake linkage was different on the later-built types such as BCK/BFK/FO and others + several catering vehicles and the sleeping cars. Also, on the BSK [and BG], the battery boxes are in-line and in the photo on page two of this thread, the BB on the BSK needs to be moved one bay to the left, so as the clear the large hanger step, which is also absent on your model. As a consequence, the lighting regulator/switchbox is on the other side in the same space – i.e. not a mirror-image. The dynamo should also be on this side of the coach at the RH end on the UF.

The arrangement of the end hanger steps varied according to type and were handed if fitted to both ends of the buffer beam. Don’t forget the saddles for the buffers. They may be there - it is hard to see from the photos.

On the roof, the lav. Fillers look too tall and the rain strips need top flanges to turn them into gutters. The ends of the roofs appear way too thick as they are only sheet metal.

 

As I say, I list these things ONLY because you have asked me to and in a constructive spirit. There are other things too but you just have to read the Keith Parkin book. It is all in there. And I fully accept that some of the things are the unavoidable compromises of batch production and would not matter anyway to most customers. Obviously we didn’t have to make those compromises in our own range of MMP Mk.1 coach kits but that is because each kit could be planned from the start on a type-by-type basis.

 

Best of luck with your venture.

 

David Parkins

Edited September 6, 2017 by djparkins

[deltic17]

Dear David,

 

Thank you for your post, your keen observation has halted a serious error creeping into production. The samples shown are so called “T1” samples made of parts produced with the tooling to see if everything fits, fortunately production is still at the spraying/printing stage which by itself takes weeks to finish.

I had a meeting this afternoon with the etching people and they take two weeks to make new sides both for the B+C livery and the others. The seats are modular and can be moved in any direction. October 1^st to October 10^th are holidays here in China so shipment is now scheduled for the end of October.

I really appreciate constructive criticism of our products and gladly accept any advice, after all the better the product the better for all. If you could let me know what the other 27 faults are I would be grateful, you can email me @ : grabowsky@darstaed.com

The moment we have samples made up of the rest of the liveries I will publish them here for your kind perusal.

With our locomotives and coaches we usually include a booklet. The booklet for the MK coaches can be seen here :  http://darstaed.com/images/MK%20I%20-%20Booklet%20Final.pdf

Cheers,

Andries Grabowsky

Darstaed

 

Hello Darstaed,

Firstly 10/10 for coming on here and discussing with us modellers and I'm glad that the errors are to be corrected. A company who listens to its potential customers - a recipe for success!!

 

One point I made a few days ago was to do with the bogies for the Blue/Grey versions that I am interested in buying so it would be good to hear from you on this point.

 

Looking at photgraphs in the 70's & 80's suggest most Mk1's designs still retained their BRMk1 bogies right through up until withdrawal and a minority had Commonwealth bogies. Could this be incorporated into the coaches (IDEALLY) or will the BRMark 1 bogies be available separately (I noted previously that I had seen the Commonwealth bogies would be available separately) to correct this if there is no other way.

 

Thanks and I will look forward to your reply.

Deltic17.

[Osgood]

A trade-in deal on Heljan Mks?

 

 

 

[CUTLER2579]

What a refreshing attitude from a manufacturer in any product,but especially so in our wonderful hobby.

Kind Regards,Derek.

[Darstaed]

Dear David,

 

Thank you for your valuable advice.
Darstaed adheres to the adage “the best product for the best value” because I like the hobby to be fun and affordable. This means by necessity that we have to find a compromise between how many variations we make and tooling expenditure on one hand and what detailing would please the majority of the customers. For those who wish to take it further there are many options available but at a cost of course.
We will study your observations and see what is practical. As manufacturers we consider making the best product we can as an investment in the future and we will do everything to make the maximum with the means available.
Cheers,
Andries.

 

Dear Deltic 17,

May I suggest you contact Bob or Ellis for extra bogies ? If routed through the supply chain your request will be attended to,
Cheers,
Andries

[djparkins]

Dear David,

 

Thank you for your valuable advice.

Darstaed adheres to the adage “the best product for the best value” because I like the hobby to be fun and affordable. This means by necessity that we have to find a compromise between how many variations we make and tooling expenditure on one hand and what detailing would please the majority of the customers. For those who wish to take it further there are many options available but at a cost of course.

We will study your observations and see what is practical. As manufacturers we consider making the best product we can as an investment in the future and we will do everything to make the maximum with the means available.

Cheers,

Andries.

 

Dear Deltic 17,

May I suggest you contact Bob or Ellis for extra bogies ? If routed through the supply chain your request will be attended to,

Cheers,

Andries

 

Andries -

 

One other quick one - and again in constructive mode! - the periscopes on the brake vehicles face outwards along the coach, so the one at the luggage-end of the coach needs turning through 180 degrees to be accurate. Didn't notice it at first but now it really stands out.

 

Regards

 

David Parkins

[M51625]

It is very difficult to model a type of coach throughout its life and get all the era appropriate fittings and alterations correct through the time period especially when so many were built by so many works, but..

 

The list of issues is significant it seems, i applaud Mr Parkins for taking the time to inform what i see is potentially a rival supplier to himself, where they are going wrong, having built an MMP Mk1 kit and worked on restoring a number of real MK1 coaches i do agree that they are very very good representations of the actual thing and are hard to beat, but if you need a rake of 12 to run at speed around a garden or attic then while MMP coaches would look superb, in the modern world who has time to build them all, i would love to add to my rake of 1 vehicle, and in due course i will, but at my built rate it will take a decade to achieve decent length rake. I guess there is a market for these coaches, and gives us modellers plenty of choice across a varied price range.

 

It would seem that another manufacturer has tried and is about to fail on Mk1 coaches, but does seem to be listening, i guess it depends how far down the production line things are, that said i would be interested to know what research they did, first thing i did was get a copy of the Parkin book, very useful indeed.

 

Would be interested to see what a rake of Mk1 coaches would look like if we had one from each of the current suppliers (RTR & kits) all painted in the same livery..

 

Gareth 

[Hal Nail]

Would be interested to see what a rake of Mk1 coaches would look like if we had one from each of the current suppliers (RTR & kits) all painted in the same livery..

 

Gareth

Agreed and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a range of favourites if everyone was asked!

 

Making a sweeping generalisation, many modellers are of an age where mk1s are incredibly familiar, even without having cause to have studied them. I suspect we'd all get close to estimating the door window size fairly well for example, having leant through them 1000s of times (or is it just me?!)

 

So we probably have a firm idea in our minds of the coaches and hitting some key characteristics would determine if a model "looked" right.

 

I accept there are constructive observations around details but compared to what has gone before, i'm hoping for something where at least the fundamentals are right.

 

From what I've seen, which admittedly is restricted to a few photos so far, these coaches still have potential in terms of the overall shape and feel?

[ozzyo]

Hello all,

 

we looked at them at Telford and at first look OK, but then we all stated to say something looks wrong amongst some of the things that were said were ,the roof profile, the body side profile, window glazing bars not fitting to the glass, the door window sizes looking wrong also the glazing in the doors, no door handles (just painted on) but they had fitted the grabs?, corridor connectors the wrong shape and the coil springs on the bogies being under weight. There were more but I'll stop it these.

 

If you wanted them for a big garden railway possible a good way to do it but for a small 20' or 30' exhibition layout I'd think again.

 

Just my thoughts,

 

OzzyO.

[Hal Nail]

If you wanted them for a big garden railway possible a good way to do it but for a small 20' or 30' exhibition layout I'd think again.

 

Just my thoughts,

 

OzzyO.

Thanks - glad I put in the caveat about only seeing a few photos so far!

[Joseph_Pestell]

I saw a sample (SK) one of these yesterday at the GOG Wimborne meet. Impressive, especially at that price.

 

Talking to Bob (ScaleLink), I was a bit surprised at the low initial production runs for each type initially. I think that they will soon need to do rather more of the more common diagrams.

 

Seems odd that they are doing that 3-set of Restaurant vehicles. They would seem to be better as separate items or perhaps sets of two.

 

It was only after I got home and looked at the leaflet that I got to think about the bogie question. Certainly, a lot of B/G Mk 1s retained Mk1 bogies on secondary routes such as the Far North. So it would make a lot of sense for both options to be available.

 

I am hoping too, that all the various underframe bits will be there on the Restaurants and Sleepers. I expect they will be.

[two tone green]

Ellis Clark Trains says should be here in two weeks time.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Apparently, these coaches are just the first salvo of many products to come. We live in interesting times.

[Captain Cuttle]

Apparently, these coaches are just the first salvo of many products to come. We live in interesting times.

Lets hope they consider making Mk 2 coaches as there is certainly a market there.