Simond Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Hi All, As promised, a separate thread for my experiences with the Avondale / Mercian Beyer Garratt kit - I purchased the kit, number 29/50, from a fellow Gauge 0 Guild member last week, and I've started on it already. The original was William Francis, which worked the Baddersley colliery, in Atherstone, Warwickshire. Bit of history here: http://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/11/william_francis.htm Thanks to threads by Phil, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/111301-mercian-vivian-style-garratt/ and Giles, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/81257-mercian-0-4-0-0-4-0-garratt-Heljan-37-kerr-stuart-wren/ I was aware of many of the shortcomings of this kit, so I went into it "eyes wide open", which is just as well, because, frankly, it's crap. The artwork for the etchings is about the worst I've ever seen, with very awkward errors in the cylinder formers, buffer beams, motion brackets and cab front & rear sheets, none of which are actually symmetric, and a few other issues with clearances between wheels and frame spacers, etc, and the firebox which, ironically, is symmetric, and shouldn't be. There have been a number of articles in print, which showed lovely models, and didn't, as far as I can recall, so much as mention these little "design issues". Anyway, Giles' loco is beautiful, Phil, who must either be a masochist, or just bonkers, is building two, and very nice they are too, and there are a couple of others to which I'll post links as & when I find them. To those who have gone before, and published their travails, thank you, it's your fault that I'm here! Now, let's see what we can do to turn the ugly duckling into, we'll, if not quite a swan, something that looks the part, and works well. Here are some pictures for starters Assymetric motion brackets Very assymetric cylinder formers Buffer beams. Really? Power bogie, Beyer Garratt style. Doesn't look too bad, but it is! The etches for the bogies. See previous comment! Cab front & rear, after considerable work to make them symmetrical. Need to do the riveting next. The first bit of assembly. The etched rivet locations are like lunar craters, and the missing ones aren't. 24 extra rivets added to each frame. You'll have to believe me, because they're not visible in this view! As Baldrick said, "I have a cunning plan", which will involve my CAD, a laser, and a pal... Watch this space Best Simon 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Warwickshire Railways has this nice photo with lots of detail: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/misc_coll-locos056.htm If only every county had such a resource! I thought there might be a reference on Peter Lee's Nuneaton, Coventry and Leamington Railway book but there isn't for the simple reason that Atherstone is not served by this railway! Good luck with those etches! Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 Thanks Paul, Literally, back to the drawing board, to redraw the frames, frame spacers, buffer beams, motion brackets and cylinder formers. The previous owner had collected an admirable hoard of info, drawings and photos on two CDs which he kindly included in the sale, so I'm well equipped for much of it, but unfortunately, I don't have an end-view or any section drawings. If anyone has... please let me know! My intent is to laser cut acrylic patterns, and then have these pantograph milled. Fingers crossed. I shall include springing, and ball-race gearboxes, with split axle pick-up, and DCC with sound, of course. Best Simon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir douglas Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 a few years ago Giles built one of these and said he had to scratchbuild half of it because its a pig of a kit Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 Yes, it is at least partially Giles' fault that I bought it... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 .... enjoy your sanity while you have it, Simon...... I know you'll make a lovely job of it, and you're going about it exactly the way I would now (except I use MDF for the patterns as it's much cheaper!) What motors do you have? Although I had bought the 1620s as recommended, I dumped them before I ever fitted them, and used 1824s instead, as they were slower and more powerful. Although you can't get them so easily, there's a nice Chinese equivalent on eBay for a couple of quid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 Hi Giles, Did I see that you have your own profile mill...? I don't, but I know a man who does I'll use acrylic for two reasons - firstly, I got a stack of it free with the laser & the CO2 rips through it like a hot knife through butter, (and bright red isn't much use for modelling) and secondly because I'm hoping that the templates will be used in the future, should anyone else want a set of milled frames. I'll design them to suit sprung hornblocks, I just ordered the Slaters insulated ones, and will split the axles in the near future. Motors, yes, taking your advice there, I'll go with the bigger ones. I've been talking to Steph Dale, and will order a pair of his ball-bearing 54:1 gearboxes, to go with them. The kit came with a pair of 1620's and 40:1 exactoscale gear sets, and curiously, 3 gearbox etches. I think as compromises go, split axles with plain bearings is probably better than ball-races with plungers. I guess I'll find out! I soldered up the front tank yesterday evening, and will do the rear tank today. It'll need milling to clear the motor, easier done when soldered up, I think. I also filled three spokes worth of the wheels with milliput last night. I'll probably leave it another day to set and clean the wheels up, turn the outside of the weights, drill the holes, and black them tomorrow. Whilst I'm on the spending spree, just taking your suggestion re the silver solder too. I think there may be a delay waiting for the frames, but I've plenty of other stuff to play with Best Simon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Simon I just found another photo, this time in Colin Maggs Branch Lines of Warwickshire. Page 14 has the photo which is not of such good quality as the one on Warwickshire Railways website. It says there is a nameplate on the side of the boiler but I can't see it! The branch lines in the area were served by MR class 2 and 3 0-6-0s, these being subsequently replaced by a Saltley 4F "commuting" on a daily basis, it carrying enough coal to last 24 hours. There is a photo on page 13 of a 3F No. 43771 at Kingsbury coal sidings in 1957. There is also an extract of the LMS working time table for 1937 outlining the rules for working over the Kingsbury Branch. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Hi Simon, I don't have room for a proper pantograph mill, but I've got one of these Proxxon jobs, which I've modifies very slightly, and is extremely good (and very Small!). I recommend them most heartily on these terms. You'll have to alter the motion brackets slightly to allow for the uplift of the coupling rods if you're springing the things.... I recall I had to do a bit of carving anyway! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKR Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Thanks for the video. Funnily enough I was looking at the engraving attachment the other day and wondering about using it like that. I just so want one of those Garratts.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 Rear tank partially made (it was a fight...) and now needs the extraneous hole for the non-existent right hand Wakefield lubricator filling. Also needs the angle around the top fitting, along with the lamp iron. Balance weights partially done. Need to short the wheelrims to hubs, and turn the fronts, drill the three holes and blacken the wheels next. Following Giles' thread, the damn boiler is too short, and there are no cross beams between the mainframes. Made & fitted the cross beams, that was relatively easy. Boiler might be more of a PITA, apparently, its supposed to be 1mm bigger in diameter too. May nip down & see my pal John. He has rolling bars. Had an e-conversation with Steph Dale, who, amongst other things, designs gearboxes. I need to find a pair of 1824 motors, no-load speed 10krpm. Wheels are 3'6", so 11' per rev. Running at say 15mph, 79000 feet/hour, or more usefully, 1320 feet per minute. About 120 rpm at the wheels, so 6480 rpm at the motor with 54:1. Accordingly, order made for the gearboxes and hornguides. The Mashimas are becoming difficult to find, but would give a peak power speed at 5krpm of around 12mph, and peak efficiency (like I care!) a little slower, flat out it could touch a breathtaking 22mph, but hopefully will be able to clank and wheeze smoothly at about half this, which seems a reasonable rate for a loose coupled minerals train on a private branch line. A question to those who have trodden this path. Giles & Phil both fitted balljoints between the engines and the mainframes to accommodate irregularities in the track. What stops the boiler and cab adopting a jaunty angle, or a distinct list to port (or starboard)? Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) Easy! You use the full ball joint on the front engine, but restrict the movement to pure fore-and-aft rocking on the hind engine, so that the boiler cradle won't'twist' against the hind. Those arrangement gives full articulation, without the bad habits. I achieved this by simply adding lateral 'bars' on the centreline of the ball joint to the top deck of the hind engine, that the boiler cradle sat down on. I hope this makes sense? Incidentally, I left my boiler 1mm too small in diameter, so I could still use the fire box throats plate casting, amongst other things...... I don't think anyone knows..... (or did I, I can't remember any more! ) Edited February 12, 2017 by Giles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) You might try these .... they're dirt cheap, and a decent spec. They're taller than the 1824, but if one chopped the motion brackets, they could lie flatter. Just a thought... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2pcs-DC-12V-24V-High-Speed-Strong-Magnetic-5-Pole-Rotor-DC-Motor-DIY-RC-Car-Toy-/131836491848?hash=item1eb2113848:g:UGUAAOSw9eVXUVOz I've certainly been very happy with my 1824s and 54:1 gearboxes regarding the speeds etc. It comes out absolutely right. The motors above appear not too dissimilar speed wise (I bought a pair, but I've done nothing with them yet) Edited February 12, 2017 by Giles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 Giles, Thanks for that, the ball joint with lateral supports makes perfect sense. I have made a new boiler. By astonishing luck (it can't be skill, it's the first time I did it) the boiler measures 37.91 mm diameter, which scales out as 5' 5" within a gnat's nether regions. It's slightly too long, which is easily fixed. The firebox is 37.2, just too narrow, but it needs a new wrapper as the washout plugs are wrong. The whitemetal throatplate isn't attractive, and it's under 37 wide, so it's not looking too hopeful. I do have some 1/8" brass so I could make a new one from that. We'll see. Progress so far: Next thing, to rivet the smokebox front plate and solder it on, that'll finish the heavy soldering on the boiler, as I'm planning to screw it onto the saddle, as that will facilitate painting. The handrail stanchions will solder on with the RSU. Best Simon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) That's looking soooo much better than the original! Forgive me, is the chimney hole on the smoke box centre line, or a tad forward as I believe it should be? I used the boiler and the smoke box saddle (hollowed out) as a cable route between engines as I was using DCC. If you were thinking of doing the same, it may interfere with a bolted connection there. Best Giles Edited February 12, 2017 by Giles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) Giles, Thanks for the encouragement. I think it looks even better now... The whitemetal bits are actually very nice, and seem to fit well. That's a bonus, much less easy to sort out than sheet metal. The chimney, if my filing is half decent, is 10.5mm (18") back from the front of the smoke box, which is 3'1 3/8" long, so, as you say, it's not central. And herewith the jury-rigged means of trying to ensure the smokebox rivets are neatly back from the edge. Something more "designed" will be needed if I ever try to do that again, but this seems to have done for now. The riveter is a GW one. Not inclined to have a go at the wheels tonight. Might feel like it tomorrow. Thanks for the thought re the wiring. I have another cunning plan. Best Simon Edited February 12, 2017 by Simond 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Hi Simon, Just found this thread, as I've been absent the past few days. You are definitelty cracking on with this - well done! And good luck! This sort of enthusiasm is re-invogorating my mojo and i hope to get back to my own lcoo's in a couple of weeks. I went into it "eyes wide open", which is just as well, because, frankly, it's crap. Well, that's one way of putting it! But I agree! Phil, who must either be a masochist, or just bonkers, is building two, and very nice they are too That's probabaly a fair assesment of me! I think that Diane would agree! To be fair, only one loco is for me - the other is a commision for a friend of my fathers, who remembers the real thing in service. Payment was in the form of providing the kit for my own loco. A question to those who have trodden this path. Giles & Phil both fitted balljoints between the engines and the mainframes to accommodate irregularities in the track. What stops the boiler and cab adopting a jaunty angle, or a distinct list to port (or starboard)? My solution for this is detailed in post113 on my thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/111301-mercian-vivian-style-garratt/?p=2516382 You will see that I have added a pair of wires soldered to the frame tops of the rear power unit.These were soldered to the inner sides of the power unit frames, projecting under the cab. The boiler cradle rests on these at this end and this provides rolling stability to the cradle. Without this, the cradle could easily tip to one side, being just supprted on the small 3/16" bearings at each end. The pivot still allows pitch and rotation, but this restricts roll at this end. The added benefit to this is that it lifts the cradle to the correct height so that the running plate on the boiler lines up with the bunker. I still need to adjust the height at the front end of the cradle with respect to the front engine unit, so the running plates line up, probabaly using Gile's suggestion of a single wire along the crentre line (or alternatively packing washers!). However, there will be no restriction on roll at this end to enure maximum flexibility and articulation of the complate loco. Hope that helps 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I've found a photo of the hind engine - undressed! This was my solution ( a photo speaks a thousand words - or whatever...) 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 13, 2017 Author Share Posted February 13, 2017 Thanks both. Philosophically, I think the best solution might be like Giles', but mounted on the underside of the boiler frame. That said, I might be splitting hairs.... (longitudinally, or transversely) Unlikely to progress far tonight, MissD's birthday. Out for dinner. Might be curry... More later! Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) I've found a photo of the hind engine - undressed! This was my solution ( a photo speaks a thousand words - or whatever...) Giles - very elegant! I like it! I went with the other way as in my mind it was easier to set up, but I prefer your method. PM Edited February 13, 2017 by PhilMortimer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 13, 2017 Author Share Posted February 13, 2017 It was a curry, and a few beers. No modelling tonight !!!! Little Miss D, who got her first loco when she was 5, (article about the runaway garden shed, in the G0G gazette) is now seventeen, and has a driving licence. I told her last evening that I'd completed my 57xx pannier whilst her mum was in labour. I may have neglected to remind her mum of this fact. For those who are guild members, the archive never lies! http://www.gauge0guildarchive.com/gazette_archive/Vol16-3/html5/index.html?page=1&server= Best Simon 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 now that is a loco I might like to try to design for my British HO layout. I seem to remember there were drawings in RM many years ago, but can't get at them at the moment. There is a drawing online which is probably good enough, showing both side and front view, and measurements. At least the film show the loco propelling the wagons uphill, I presume across the road crossing as well, as this is something I am thinking of on my layout, to simplify shunting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 I haven't found an on-line drawing of this loco. If you have a link, please pop it on here! Thanks Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 now that is a loco I might like to try to design for my British HO layout. I seem to remember there were drawings in RM many years ago, but can't get at them at the moment. There is a drawing online which is probably good enough, showing both side and front view, and measurements. At least the film show the loco propelling the wagons uphill, I presume across the road crossing as well, as this is something I am thinking of on my layout, to simplify shunting. Backwoods miniatures do an OO (4 mm scale version of this loco) - Slightly over scale for you, but it may work http://www.backwoodsminiatures.com/stdgauge.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 I haven't found an on-line drawing of this loco. If you have a link, please pop it on here! Thanks Simon Simon, I may have an electronic copy of the GA, as scanned by the Manchester MOSI. I'll PM you if / when i can locate it. You've probabaly seen it, but there is an online basic drawing included as part of the article http://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/11/william_francis.htm PM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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