Replacing Mashima motors

[bertiedog]

Most of the higher revving coreless motors do not suit DCC, without a lot of tweaking of the CV's or using specialist decoders for coreless.

They do not have much power at the lower revs end, but this is allowed for by higher ratio gear sets and boxes, but in turn limits the top speed available.

 

The Mashimas, being conventional design, have a wide power graph, good low torque at modest currents, and a pretty wide power band till the max revs at 12 volts is reached.

 

The same applies to the Small Mitsumi, for it's size, except a higher start point, It's three pole, but a similar graph once running.

 

Coreless tend to have very wide graph, but a steeper climb to the power from higher voltages. They are just more efficient in converting electrical power to work, but will start at low currents, but at that point, with little power.

 

Not sure about the reference to computer drive motors, most types in hard drives are AC types driven by circuits to produce phased rotation. They are in effect a permanent magnet motor fed by DC converted to AC.

 

They in the main are too large for railway Models uses, or do you have another type in mind and can show the type involved?.

 

Costs of the Mashima were relative, but the list prices made them second only to the price of the wheels, and it is only a comment, if you have to save money on the hobby, then any item however small can be a bit expensive. They deliver value for money in any respects.

 

The problem with replacement ranges from China is purely down to the large capital investment n the ordering, even the large US market has not invested in a range yet, and it's a big problem for the smaller UK market.

 

One last thing, most current coreless cheaper types on Ebay do not have end thrust problems as they are a newer design than the Swiss pattern, where end thrust was no design requirement issue as they purely ran spur geartrains, or the gear head took the end thrust. The newer designs have washers inside that act the same as a conventional poled motor.

 

In a perfect design, all end thrust should be outside the motor, but simpler designs persist in models to save space.

[Jol Wilkinson]

You would need a good decoder if DCC as the quoted 12volt stall current is 1.4 A, although the running load was OK.

I too had a look at those. 17 mm diameter by 26 mm, so a good size for larger locos, but unfortunately no end fixing screw holes as far as I can see.

 

The sellers shop has a large selection of motors, but very little that seem to get near the size/voltage requirements that we have.

 

A quick look at Peter's Spares shows a number of Hornby motors, but at prices well above what we have been  paying for Mashima. No size/fixing details given as they are quoted as replacements for specific Hornby locos.

[burgundy]

Has anyone done a comparison between the Mashima range of motors and potential replacements? If they have would they mind sharing it?

 

Regards

 

At the risk of going back to PenrithBeacon's original exam question, the short answer seems to be "no". There does not seem to be any obvious replacement for Mashima, who provided a range of motors to consistent standards and of known provenance. It is, of course, possible to "spot buy" motors by the dozen on e-bay, but this seems to leave you vulnerable to the need to adapt mounting brackets and risk frequent motor replacement if they burn out. Also, we need to know a bit more about their performance for them to be useful.

Mashima, and other motors, were tested by the late Doug Smith in a series of EMGS data sheets which appeared from the early 80's and for about 25 year after. The Mashimas appeared in tests in the early 90's and their performance was documented in comparison with the range of other motors that were available at the time. I seem to recall that there was also an article by Ian Rice in MRN which did a similar, but slightly less rigorous, comparison.

If we wanted to identify the best alternatives, there might be a number of steps to follow.

- identify who Is actually making motors of broadly the right specification on a consistent basis (has Mashima really gone out of business or has it been sold on as a going concern?). A little google therapy should provide a reasonable start, but anyone with a knowledge of the trade might know this already.

- run a comparison, possibly using Doug Smith's methodology which was well documented (a good A level science project?)

- publish the results in one of the magazines (possibly something for BRM to commission?)

There might then be a more solid basis on which gearbox designers could work and on which the rest of us could identify motors that were suitable for our intended projects.

Best wishes

Eric        

[cctransuk]

..... (has Mashima really gone out of business or has it been sold on as a going concern?).

 

Received wisdom is that Mr. Mashima wanted to retire for some time, but the closure of his specialist magnet supplier provided the final impetus to do so.

 

Not verified by me - but reported by a number of sources.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[bertiedog]

The mounting problems are more than miss placed holes, which are rarely going to line up on replacements, Mashima's standards were purely house standards, but in time sort of gained a reputation as "standard".

Most of the "folded" gear housings can be altered with a bottom plate soldered on, of approx the length of the motor, and the motor is secured to the plate with a cable tie at each end, simple but works and within the home mechanics range.

 

For the more sophisticated home mechanic, take a plate of 1.0mm to 1.5mm brass and bend up the end at the gearbox, and solder it to the folded box at the front. Measure the motor length and bend the other end to make a cradle. The far end is drilled and tapped with holes to take locking bolts that bear on the end of the Motor, Hate soldering?, then bolt the gearbox end to the cradle.

 

Result? a simple removable mounting that is infinitely adjustable and uses existing etched folded gearboxes of most designs.

 

 

The picture should make it clear, the screws are trimmed to just hold the motor. (8ba or 10ba or 2.0mm)

I have shown bolts on the gear end, but it could be soldered. The end has two screws outside the line of the armature rod.

Must be about as universal as you can get and adjustable for gear mesh etc.

 

 

Stephen

Edited May 11, 2017 by bertiedog

[davefrk]

Mashima's are still available from various sources and indeed Highlevel have just had a delivery of Mashima motors, IMHO still the best high torque low revving motor for what we want at a reasonable price. Yes I've had a look at the others mentioned and found them a bit lacking but probably okay with good gearing for trundling up and down a branch for a couple of years and then cheap enough to replace.

 

Dave Franks.

Who at one time imported Mashimas.

[bertiedog]

Since they are now a year after the second story about closure, maybe they are continuing in business till sold etc. That the magnets caused an issue with the closure of a supplier sounds credible, but I worked in a specialist instrument makers and we ordered magnets to exacting specifications without any problems at all. It is after all just specialist foundry work, I knew a couple if tiny firms in the UK that make magnets to order and i think still do. They made the thin magnets required and could handle most shapes.

So we wait and see, by the way I was assured Modelling would cease several times over the years, no BA bolt, no BA taps, No flat brass, no flat nickel silver, no needle files, no fluxes allowed, paint banned, it has made no difference. Somebody will come up with a range sooner or later.

 

Stephen

[polybear]

Regarding the Mashima motors, is there any guidance (apart from size of course) regarding which motor is best for a particular application?  Thanks

Brian

[chris p bacon]

I've always fitted as big as I can.

[5050]

Regarding the Mashima motors, is there any guidance (apart from size of course) regarding which motor is best for a particular application?  Thanks

Brian

Look on High Level website under gear boxes and motors.

[5050]

A quick look at Peter's Spares shows a number of Hornby motors, but at prices well above what we have been  paying for Mashima. No size/fixing details given as they are quoted as replacements for specific Hornby locos.

I had a trawl through there a couple of weeks ago and saw several Hornby motors that might be useful.  However, the majority seem to come complete with a worm (and sometimes a complete 'box') and the method of fixing can be a bit uncertain. I presume that the worms could be removed by 'the usual method'.  Mounting methods seem to vary as well but getting round that 'challenge' can be part of the fun of kit building (!?). Making up an 'adaptor' for HL boxes shouldn't be that difficult for anyone who can put an etched kit together - but perhaps I'm talking from the position of having a lathe which, in theory, ought to make such a process 'easier'.  As also said, the price can be a bit high - but how many motors are you actually going to buy?  The motor cost is a relatively small percentage of the overall cost of building a kit and only one is needed - and without a motor it ain't going to work!

 

I still have several Mashimas of varying sizes 'in stock' along with a selection of Sagami's of varying sizes. Probably more motors than I'll ever get round to using.  However the Sagami's are 'full' cans not flat sided ones and can be a bit awkward to fit into narrow waisted locos.

[cctransuk]

If anyone wishes to order one or more of the Mitsumi motors, I have just taken delivery of another batch of 100; the manufacturer's specification can be found at http://www.mitsumi.co.jp/latest/Catalog/compo/motorav/m15n3series_e.html .

 

Full ordering and payment details can be found at https://www.cctrans.org.uk/ .

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited May 12, 2017 by cctransuk

[wagonbasher]

I have used that one with a High Level Roadrunner+, it runs very well but rather slowly.

 

'Which one'?

 

Arthur just says he bought it from eBay. I have searched eBay for 12v flat can but I can't see one with a worm attached as Arthur had indicated.

 

Confused...

 

Andy

[cctransuk]

'Which one'?

 

Arthur just says he bought it from eBay. I have searched eBay for 12v flat can but I can't see one with a worm attached as Arthur had indicated.

 

Confused...

 

Andy

 

He means the one that I sell, the Mitsumi; see #37.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[d600]

I too have recently ordered some of the 12v flat cans from eBay. They had a worm fitted which needed removing. They also had two screw mounting holes but arranged diagonally across the front face.

They fitted the High Level gearbox but were held at an angle such that the one I tried wouldn't fit into the locos bonnet. I redrilled the gearbox faceplate and it then fitted and, so far, has worked fine. It was a replacement for a Mashima in a Judith Edge 65 ton Hunslet. Had I been building the kit from new I'd have widened the hole in the footplate to suit the motor mountung.

I noticed that the gearbox templates on the High Level site now show the faceplates with these diagonal holes etched through.

.

Hi do you have a link for the motor has I’d be interested in purchasing a couple.

 

Cheers

[cctransuk]

Hi do you have a link for the motor has I’d be interested in purchasing a couple.

 

Cheers

 

https://www.cctrans.org.uk/

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

[micklner]

Just bought some of these , waiting for them to arrive. Appear to be the same  as Mitsumi without the stickers. For the price, even  if one is decent you cant go wrong.

 

search on eBay for 

 

5pcs 12V 13500 RPM Double Axle Soldering 2Pin Micro Magnetic Electric DC Motor

Edited October 1, 2017 by micklner

[micklner]

Just bought some of these , waiting for them to arrive. Appear to be the same  as Mitsumi without the stickers. For the price, even  if one is decent you cant go wrong.

 

search on eBay for 

 

5pcs 12V 13500 RPM Double Axle Soldering 2Pin Micro Magnetic Electric DC Motor

 

Motors arrived today, 7 days from China !!

 

All five work and are identical in size to the Mitsumi motors. All revved smoothly in both directions and appears to be well made. Time will tell when they are fitted to kits.

 

They do not come with mounting screws . A eBay search found a pack x 25  for £2 with again free postage, they await arrival at the moment.

[micklner]

Mounting Screws arrived today , perfect fit and length for the motors. 

[Gordon A]

Mounting Screws arrived today , perfect fit and length for the motors. 

 

What type of mounting screws please?

 

Goedon A

[micklner]

Search eBay for 

 

 

25/50pc Laptop Phone Camera Glasses Mini Phillips Wafer Flat Head Screw M2M2.5M3.

 

 

I bought the M2 x 1.5mm long version

[micklner]

Do not buy the following, two arrived today via ebay , variable speed and cogging , when not even under any kind of load .Ok  £1 each but  be warned !!

 

Micro Mini N30 Motor DC 6V~12V 17000RPM-25000RPM High Speed Large Torque 10*12mm

Edited November 6, 2017 by micklner

[HarryP]

Mick, just wondered which gearboxes you use for the Chinese 12v motors?

[oldrog73]

Have a look at the Branchlines web site..I have used their Hanazono motors in many locos over many years and found them to be excellent - as are their gearboxes.

[micklner]

Mick, just wondered which gearboxes you use for the Chinese 12v motors?

 

I have used two so far,both on High Level boxes. The only problem is the mounting holes are at 45 degrees instead of vertical so slightly wider when fitted. Just ensure the model has enough space for fitting.