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Replacing Mashima motors


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On 07/01/2021 at 20:53, Michael Edge said:

I've bought all sorts of motors advertised as 6v or anywhere up to 12v, all I do is connect them up and run them while watching the ammeter. My nominal 12v DC supply is actually about 14v anyway but the vast majority just run with barely a flicker on the ammeter. If they keep running and don't get too hot I assume they are OK, they are too cheap to worry much about. The only exception to this is the 15mm square 6 pole motor which appears to run very warm but with no detrimental effect (and not much on the ammeter either) I've ordered some of the coreless ones so I'll find out in due course.

I've had some of these 15mm square 6 pole motors for a while but this is the first time I have used one in a loco. I too was concerned that they seem to run quite hot, but after some running this one seems to have settled down nicely. It's far too early to be able to comment on longevity but I can say they are very powerful - the loco this one is going into weighs 400g and it will still spin the wheels if obstructed on the track. It's also ludicrously slow revving compared to most of 'our' motors - this loco tops out at about 16mph flat out at 12 volts, and that's with simple 40:1 Romford gears. 

 

IMG_20210110_125605.jpg.a40877b0aad11d44a466987dc04d8ae5.jpg

 

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Thanks Barclay, 

 

Do you know how these compare with the smaller ones ? Got a couple of those with some Agenoria Kits recently. 
 

anyone tried this? Bit more ££ but possibly been spec’d for model railways? 
 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/154240492242?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20161006002618%26meid%3Dda8998e7833c4bd3a273f467afa8c6e0%26pid%3D100694%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D27%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D283315414483%26itm%3D154240492242%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2386202%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic
 

J

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54 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

A bit too slow then! Unless this is a diesel loco, any steam loco should be able to do at least 30-40mph. The main criticism of diesel shunters when they replaced steam was that they were too b****y slow.

Yes I should have gone for 30 or even 20:1 but luckily it's an industrial shunter!

 

27 minutes ago, Down_Under said:

Thanks Barclay, 

 

Do you know how these compare with the smaller ones ? Got a couple of those with some Agenoria Kits recently. 
 

anyone tried this? Bit more ££ but possibly been spec’d for model railways? 
 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/154240492242?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20161006002618%26meid%3Dda8998e7833c4bd3a273f467afa8c6e0%26pid%3D100694%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D27%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D283315414483%26itm%3D154240492242%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2386202%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic
 

J

I haven't tried the smaller ones because they seem to always be for less than 12v and I was worried about burning them out, which is a shame as they would be very suitable for my needs.

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3 hours ago, Down_Under said:

Thanks Barclay, 

 

Do you know how these compare with the smaller ones ? Got a couple of those with some Agenoria Kits recently. 
 

anyone tried this? Bit more ££ but possibly been spec’d for model railways? 
 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/154240492242?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20161006002618%26meid%3Dda8998e7833c4bd3a273f467afa8c6e0%26pid%3D100694%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D27%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D283315414483%26itm%3D154240492242%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2386202%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic
 

J

 

 

I tried one of these the 1220 ish  single ended shaft, it did not like my H&M test controller, after a short while it died. High Level ones are rated for 12 volts and are fine

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I have used the smaller square motor, one does seem to be running successfully but another one died very quickly. They also run hot on (nominally) 12v DC, I don't think I'll bother with these again - it's a pity though, they are also very powerful for the size.

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The main problem is of course that what appears on such as eBay are surplus stock and what the specs the motors were originally made for is an unknown. Perhaps the square type were not intended for continuous operation, but just intermittent use where short bursts of high power were the main requirement.

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Quite possibly but they are so cheap that it doesn't really matter. I've amassed a large stock of all sorts for very little expenditure, not knowing if there is a reliable supply of any of these makes it nearly impossible to use them in any production kits though.

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Being a 3mm/ft modeller I'm interested in small motors, and have been trying the small coreless motors appearing on the market. First attempt was a 7x16 motor from ebay; I bought 16 for £25. Here's one fitted to a Metro chassis, with a Mashima 1020 for comparison:

 

m145.jpg.46111506e5898aa25a184b2e5ce422a3.jpg

 

I used a High Level Compact+ 54:1 gearbox, replacing the first stage with one having cradle for the motor which is fixed with a strap. The motor is very smooth and quiet; it has been tested under moderate loads and works fine. It's a bit livelier than I would like, but overall works as well as, possibly better than, the 1020. The drive shaft is a bit small but using a bush cut from brass tube 1mm I/D 1.5mm O/D it works OK.

 

I then tried a couple of 8x17 motors from Tramfabriek in two Cambrian locomotives, an Albion 2-4-0 and a Seaham 2-4-0T. Here they are:

 

g1020485.jpg.c4966539902863c95a07b15150e40f4e.jpg

 

g1020512.jpg.e9254a2e29ef0644ff804794000fe080.jpg

 

Again I used a High Level Compact+ 54:1 gearbox, using my own cradle for the motor, which is glued in place using Araldite Rapid; this holds the motor firm enough, but a Stanley knife slid underneath will detach it. Again, very smooth and quiet, lively but reasonably so (as the real things were).

 

Tramfabriek does other coreless motors, including a 10x20 which they imply can be used as a replacement for the Mashima 1020:

https://tramfabriek.nl/motors.html

 

These were tested using a basic Gaugemaster Combi controller. As with all coreless motors extreme caution is recommended with feed-back controllers.

 

Nigel

Edited by NCB
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On 06/01/2021 at 10:55, Down_Under said:

Hi all,

 

I've been trialling out these 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Japan-Mini-Micro-5-Pole-Electric-Big-Coreless-Motor-DC-3-7V-5V-6V-12V-High-Speed/193592365341?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D078579b7ca5d4a32b6e813e2d6d94605%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D193592365341%26itm%3D193592365341%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A7681270b-500b-11eb-a7e8-6ef2a71592fa|parentrq%3Ad747c1971760a68ba65ca17bffcbd636|iid%3A1

 

I bought models B, C and D.

 

Here is the C type fitted to a Judith Edge Janus chassis and a High Level Road Runner + (54:1). I had to sleeve the shaft from 1 to 1.5mm and in doing so ensured there is no for and aft movement. it will crawl long under normal DC, even at relatively low levels of reduction (for a shunter) - 20 sec for a full wheel rotation without stalling. They have surprising amount of torque and I'd say quite a nice 12/20 or 12/24 replacement. I'm yet to run up to the full 12v as that is far beyond what I need for a small shunter. Very responsive to minor current increase. cant stop them with fingers at 3v - and the model C has normal Mashima mounting screw holes. 

 

 

IMG_2462.jpg.700b31519118408076832ef83d029b31.jpg

 

 

IMG_2461.jpg

 

IMG_2460.jpg.9f03ce9f59a8fd8849e07349bb4d1d85.jpg

 

 

 

Will try some of the double shaft variety as they look similar 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10mm-Mini-Coreless-Motor-Dual-Shaft-DC-6V-9V-12V-High-Speed-RC-Rail-Train-Car/192513133362?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200520130048%26meid%3D3b34a177d0dc4ad6ac713fd37c333ba6%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dsb%26sd%3D193592365341%26itm%3D192513133362%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithDarwoV3BBEV2b%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

 

Good luck!

 

James 

 

 

James

 

What size grub screws do these motors have please, plus any further thoughts on these motors  Thanks

Edited by hayfield
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On 09/02/2021 at 17:14, hayfield said:

 

 

James

 

What size grub screws do these motors have please, plus any further thoughts on these motors  Thanks


 

G’day Hayfield,

 

RE mounting screws:

 

The 6v 1mm shaft 10/20 (C type) motors use the same size mounting screws as the equivalent Mashima (M1.4 x 2)

 

the 12v 1.5mm shaft version (B type - stubby little shaft) use a 10BA screw (weird right?!) I used some Romford crankpins until some 10BA turned up. 
 

I’m in the process of building one of the 12v ones into a 165DE to see if I can sleeve this correctly, so far so good. I’m in the process of building one of the 6v ones into a EM jinty to run on a friends large continuous run EM layout (35ft long). That should be a pretty good test. Hope to have this one running my month end. 
 

James 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/01/2021 at 08:40, Barclay said:

I've had some of these 15mm square 6 pole motors for a while but this is the first time I have used one in a loco. I too was concerned that they seem to run quite hot, but after some running this one seems to have settled down nicely. It's far too early to be able to comment on longevity but I can say they are very powerful - the loco this one is going into weighs 400g and it will still spin the wheels if obstructed on the track. It's also ludicrously slow revving compared to most of 'our' motors - this loco tops out at about 16mph flat out at 12 volts, and that's with simple 40:1 Romford gears. 

 

IMG_20210110_125605.jpg.a40877b0aad11d44a466987dc04d8ae5.jpg

 

I've now completed this loco. and had the chance to run it for a while, and it is very smooth and quiet indeed. The only unexpected thing is that it only really performs at it's best when run with a very old AGW 'solid state controller'. On the Gaugemaster feedback and the Pentroller, which all my other loco's prefer, it is slightly hesitant, or twitchy. Does this mean these motors aren't happy with feedback? I wonder if anyone else has noticed this issue? Further testing, with an H&M Powermaster, will follow in due course. As a matter of interest, I note that one has been used to re-motor a Pacific Fast Mail brass Shay in February's Railroad Model Craftsman, so they seem to be gaining in popularity. 

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I have used N20 motors in a few locomotives now but I have not, until now, seen one with this configuration. It's not going to be suitable for 4mm but I can see uses for chain-driven industrial diesels, and Sentinel steam locos in 7mm. @Michael Edge

 

image.png.16ba53eb3febbc49322db40f0f55fae0.png

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2 hours ago, Barclay said:

I've now completed this loco. and had the chance to run it for a while, and it is very smooth and quiet indeed. The only unexpected thing is that it only really performs at it's best when run with a very old AGW 'solid state controller'. On the Gaugemaster feedback and the Pentroller, which all my other loco's prefer, it is slightly hesitant, or twitchy. Does this mean these motors aren't happy with feedback? I wonder if anyone else has noticed this issue? Further testing, with an H&M Powermaster, will follow in due course. As a matter of interest, I note that one has been used to re-motor a Pacific Fast Mail brass Shay in February's Railroad Model Craftsman, so they seem to be gaining in popularity. 

I use some Gaugemaster feedback controllers and I haven't noticed this but the motor does buzz a bit.

 

9 minutes ago, Ruston said:

I have used N20 motors in a few locomotives now but I have not, until now, seen one with this configuration. It's not going to be suitable for 4mm but I can see uses for chain-driven industrial diesels, and Sentinel steam locos in 7mm. @Michael Edge

 

image.png.16ba53eb3febbc49322db40f0f55fae0.png

That looks very interesting, why not for 4mm? How wide is the gearbox?

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2 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

I use some Gaugemaster feedback controllers and I haven't noticed this but the motor does buzz a bit.

 

That looks very interesting, why not for 4mm? How wide is the gearbox?

It's as wide as the motor, so although it will fit within the frames, the drive arm won't.

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2 hours ago, Ruston said:

It's as wide as the motor, so although it will fit within the frames, the drive arm won't.

With careful drilling, could it be 're-engineered' to replace the drive arm with a locomotive axle? Fitted with hornblocks, it could be dropped out for maintenance rather than having to build the entire chassis around it.

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1 hour ago, Barclay said:

With careful drilling, could it be 're-engineered' to replace the drive arm with a locomotive axle? Fitted with hornblocks, it could be dropped out for maintenance rather than having to build the entire chassis around it.

The drive shaft will be 3mm so if you choose a 3mm axle there won't be any need for drilling. 

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On 22/02/2021 at 16:45, PenrithBeacon said:

The drive shaft will be 3mm so if you choose a 3mm axle there won't be any need for drilling. 

The two ends of the drive shaft appear to be of different diameters and maybe the final gear is located on a diameter of less than 3mm. I confess I have no idea.

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On 06/01/2021 at 10:55, Down_Under said:

Here is the C type fitted to a Judith Edge Janus chassis and a High Level Road Runner + (54:1). I had to sleeve the shaft from 1 to 1.5mm and in doing so ensured there is no for and aft movement.

I went ahead and bought two of these motors. I have fitted one to a 90:1 HL Humpshunter, in a Judith Edge Ruston 165. It is running perfectly in one direction but in the other it appears to travel along well enough but it makes the most horrendous noise. It is in the direction where the shaft in the motor is being pulled out and I am wondering if it is the motor that is causing the noise.

 

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21 hours ago, Ruston said:

I went ahead and bought two of these motors. I have fitted one to a 90:1 HL Humpshunter, in a Judith Edge Ruston 165. It is running perfectly in one direction but in the other it appears to travel along well enough but it makes the most horrendous noise. It is in the direction where the shaft in the motor is being pulled out and I am wondering if it is the motor that is causing the noise.

 

It was the motor. It appears that the end float was excessive and must have caused something inside the motor to rub against something that it ought not to. I swapped it for a Mitsumi and the loco runs nicely and quietly now.

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