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The latest RM (August) has an article with drawings on the LBSC Pacific and Baltic tank engines.

 

It's very confusing with my on-line subscription getting the August copy in July since I thought I'd gone and overslept again.

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  • RMweb Gold
14 hours ago, Annie said:

It's very confusing with my on-line subscription getting the August copy in July since I thought I'd gone and overslept again.

Never a problem with MRJ, though...

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It's always a disappointment when a seemingly plausible situation regarding timetabling of trains turns out to not be accurate.

 

I had it in mind that the through SE&CR Kent Coast - Brighton train, which adjoined at Hastings to an outward Brighton service, may have been attached to the Portsmouth/Coastal Direct train (made from a Balloon set!) to save having two trains working where one may be more agreeable. In my mind, with the Kent carriages at the rear of the train at Hastings, so that after reversal at Eastbourne and arrival at Brighton (Kent carriages in first), the Balloons for Portsmouth were primed for being taken off and across to the most westerly platforms, used for the West Coastway. Alas, this doesn't look to be the case as the Portsmouth train was one of the first departures from Hastings in the morning, the Brighton/Kent train coming some two and a bit hours later. At least, according to the 1908 timetabling that I've seen. It's a shame, that could've been an interesting arrangement, a Balloon set alongside an SECR portion (dual-braked, naturally).

 

Perhaps this did happen with some trains, however I'd need to investigate more timetables. It seems sensible for it to happen, but on the other hand, pre-grouping and practicality don't always go hand-in-hand. 

 

Looking at the 1908 Carriage Working Timetable, the Portsmouth/Coastal service departed Hastings at 7:45am. The Kent/Brighton train, on the other hand, from 1909-13 (according to flyers and the 1913 SECR timetable) arrives at Hastings between 10:00-10:30am. Huff. Very annoying. 

 

In the meantime, while perusing the 1913 timetable, I discovered that, as I suspected, there were technically through journeys between the GNR and SECR - at least with ticketing. 

 

Through carriages were arranged between Kings Cross and Thanet, with passengers for elsewhere on the network having to change at Herne Hill - these were SECR carriages, I'd imagine, for the connection, or more elderly GNR carriages cleared for the Met loading gauge. 

 

For Hastings services, I didn't see any mention of the Gilberts ('American Cars'), but I believe they may have been withdrawn by this point and stored due to their expense of upkeep. 

 

LBSCR timetables to be tracked down, more reading to be done... 

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The coastal service (Hastings-Brighton) or the SECR through carriages?

 

I've found the LBSCR's approach to Hastings confusing at the best of times, so I'm afraid I can't really answer. 

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Aha - ''Passengers for Eastbourne change at Polegate''. That explains the SECR/LBSCR through train, and removes the need for a reversal at Eastbourne. Hmm... More digging!

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I look after a very fragile original RCH Junction Diagrams from 1922 on behalf of the South Western Circle, which includes running powers.  I lay on the bed and very gently opened it.  The only relevant running power is the LBSC over the SECR from Bo Peep Junc to Hastings.

 

Bill

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I'm aware of the LB&SCR running powers to Hastings, thank you. What I'm more interested in here is the through operations and timetabling, which can be very complex around Hastings with hand-over between the two companies of trains or exchange of passengers and so on. 

 

As I stated earlier on this page, I wondered if it might have been worthwhile the two companies running the through Kent/Brighton and Portsmouth portions together to Brighton, to make better use of routing, but it seems this wasn't the case as far as I can find. 

 

I'll ask the Brighton Circular email group, they may have clearer answers. 

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Righto, I have a reply from the Circular email group. 

 

My notion of the two portions running together was wishful thinking. The coastline train was always an early departure, with a later 'South Coast Express' departure around 11:00am (according to the 1911 LBSCR timetable).

 

Good to know where and why we go wrong, for sure! 

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Interesting thing I gleaned the other day while researching SECR carriage liveries (quite the contentious topic as regards Lake and its shade/interpretation, I know) - anything teaked, ex-Chatham in particular, was likely to survive until at least 1911 without being repainted into the co-management livery, merely renumbered if appropriate and rebranded. 

 

At first I thought it seemed rather odd for a livery to survive that long, but if the wood was good and varnish intact, I suppose it makes sense to maintain it rather than rebrand for the sake of rebranding. 

 

I can't think of any models of SECR in teak, certainly not post-1899. 

 

 

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  • 5 weeks later...

Well, two days after moving in, I am settling into my parents' house in Yorkshire and I must say, it's lovely being back in my own county, on home turf. 

 

Two years of stress over where I'll live and bedroom arrangements and finance have largely been quelled now, and though I haven't a space to model properly (the downside of sharing a room short-term), I'm already feeling at home. 

 

I've unpacked a few railway items, just carriages and wagons to check they weren't damaged, and everything survived the 200+ mile journey. The only thing I did notice was that many cast buffers on kits had come loose, such as on the SECR luggage vans, but this isn't an issue as I was intent on replacing them with sprung ones in time, anyway. 

 

Some of you may know i purchased a cheap pair of BR Birdcage brakes - many thanks to @sem34090 for pointing them out to me as an affordable conversion project! Much more comfortable than paying £45+ per carriage. I just need the centre car now. These will go into plain brown, most likely, with SECR branding. I've already removed the buffers and the coupling cams in preparation for scale coupling fitting and sprung buffers, too.

 

IMG_20200713_095256.jpg.061686339f7751c2205e8e68e78b6ff3.jpg

 

I also pre-ordered a full Wainwright D class - I realise it wouldn't have lasted too long in my time period in that livery, but it was too nice to say no to, and I supposed I needed something in Wainwright if I was modelling from 1910 now! 

 

You may also have seen in my B2 conversion thread that @TurboSnailand @Killian keane worked on a tender top for the project which was printed. This build is coming along nicely, I hope to finish it by December, by which time I may be in attendance at Wakefield Railway Club (though it is seeking new premises - we'll see how it goes).

 

 

IMG_20200710_111709.jpg.56116ee6283a232ec316949bf95d7a58.jpg

 

Plans to build Blackstone are still in the pipeline - my brother has suddenly spawned an interest in carpentry and woodwork, and has turned my Dad's old railway boards (too old and heavy to use for my purposes) into a set of gaming tables (he's into Pokemon and all that sort of thing, I don't know much more than that!) so who knows, I may have a helping hand... 

 

 

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1 hour ago, AVS1998 said:

Some of you may know i purchased a cheap pair of BR Birdcage brakes - many thanks to @sem34090 for pointing them out to me as an affordable conversion project! Much more comfortable than paying £45+ per carriage. I just need the centre car now. These will go into plain brown, most likely, with SECR branding. I've already removed the buffers and the coupling cams in preparation for scale coupling fitting and sprung buffers, too.

 

Keep an eye on Hattons for the centre car, They occasionally pop up affordably in the pre-owned section. I've another rake of birdcages in crimson to get around to at some point. I can tell you that the sprung buffers and scale couplings certainly add up (especially when you've done 9 coaches). I do wish the Markits buffers had slightly softer springs. 

 

32589786657_ee38f51f26_h.jpg

 

Looking forward to seeing how you get on!

Edited by Jack P
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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, that's three screw-links fitted to the two Birdcages. I didn't quite have enough to do the pair, but I'll place an order for some and a pack of three-link soon. Thanks to @BlueLightning for that very sensible idea, ordering a pack of each once a month!

 

I've been working on some articles again, and came across this very interesting resource whilst trying to track down some other newspaper archives, which I'm trying to utilise more rather than relying solely on academic texts which are often quite vague, depending on what one is looking for. 

 

Wakefield City Centre has the Yorkshire Archives which I hope to access, too - these may be more regionally restrictive (Really, Alex? Never would've guessed that...) but there may be something in there. 

 

I also came across the subject of women's spaces and facilities on the railway, and was directed to Susan Major's work by @Corbs - many thanks for that, I'll be sure to dive deep into her writings and see what can't be gleaned! It's something I'm tempted to either include in an upcoming article, or to use as a basis for a separate article once I have more material to work with. 

 

 

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Newhaven Town Council placed a number of information boards around the town and port for the centenary, in relevant places. The text and pictures can be seen here - this is for the port but you can move about from there https://www.newhaventowncouncil.gov.uk/newhavens-first-world-war/the-poppy-trail/the-port-and-railway/

Newhaven was a crucial port in both World Wars as it was the first deep water port to the west of the Dover Straight. 

The_Port_&_Railway_board.jpg

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I bought a pair of Kenline wagon kits last week, £10 for two in a box, a fairly reasonable price. Initially I'd assumed they were all white metal, but upon opening... 

 

20200819_115108.jpg.19c8bbb4925c9b28aff5209d1483a4ab.jpg

 

Wood? Wire? White metal and brass? Punched plastic? This looks very involved... 

 

 

 

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For some reason the forum is complaining I'm trying to upload too large a photo, so I'll edit some into this post. 

 

It appears one wagon is an LBSCR open A, and the other is a three plank Brighton variety, I don't know which. 

 

Both were simple to construct: glue the balsa around the perspex base, glue the buffers into the beams, which are then glued in place on the base. One needs to take care to align the height of the wagon sides and ends to make the body height "right". 

 

image.png.4a5cf5b5a6b4778cbd35c97e25eb6bf7.png

 

image.png.aff737bb7e6aa1abceee100aa624bb84.png

 

After this, the frames were trimmed to length and glued into the slots provided in the end beams (I'd already drilled holes for three links), then adding the brake gear casting. 

 

image.png.fed9914052c4a8657dfd278f3a8f9d2e.png

 

image.png.e045030350cd40b7f6015dfa38a59598.png

 

Corner bracing in punched brass for the A was glued on, making the seams tidier. I also drilled holes for the canopy wire, using the pre bent brass length and trimming it to fit. It looks a little wobbly, but I expect with a tarp over it will look decent. 

 

image.png.1eff5f3fdb93e5d802a0d4837e4613af.png

 

image.png.36521e599d319fe04b77833e4926cde4.png

 

End bracing, a nice white metal casting, was also glued on. 

 

All that remains for the open A is the fitting of the door hinges and the plastic strip which represents the metalwork, and the bearing fitted axle boxes, cast in metal. These are all separate and glue into place on the side frames, which I'll do with wheels in and capture them in an elastic band to try and maintain good running. 

 

 

 

This will virtually all be repeated on the other wagon, excluding the canopy wire. 

 

All in all, an interesting pair of kits! I've really enjoyed the mixed media. 

 

 

image.png

Edited by AVS1998
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Thanks to @Skinnylinny for finding this link, which seems to suggest the arc wagon I've been building may be a sou'westerner, but we're none too convinced due to the sharpness of the arc. 

 

At any rate, like I've said, with a tarp on, whose to know... 

 

https://cpineroad.blogspot.com/2018/11/lswr-wagon-kit.html

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I'm starting to think I need to invest in some more books. 

 

''More books she says, when the majority are still in the garage (waterproof, thankfully)''.

 

I asked the Brighton Circle for some help again, identifying locomotives sited at Hastings or St Leonards within my allocated time period, initially asking regarding any Terriers that may have been there. Alas, no wee beasties were rostered to that shed, however, I was given a rather large set of numbers to go away and identify the classes of, and a resource to use and see what else I could find on my own to boot. 

 

Many thanks to the members of the Circle for their ongoing patience with me - I do get frustrated that my own resources are limited and online access is poor at the best of times. Books and records definitely help, but tracking those down in the first instance can be a bigger pain than actually using them!

 

Anyway, to the classes. I'm surprised at what appears there (The period was 1911-25, not counting numbers repeated, just their initial appearance):

 

At least twelve 4-4-0 locomotives of various examples (B2, B2x and B4), a pair of Gladstones at any given time, at least one Atlantic tank (typically an I3, with one seemingly rostered to St Leonards, though I've read of I4s being utilised to the town, too), numerous small tanks in the D and E series (D1, D3, E1) and several mid-range Radials, too (E4-6). A handful of the C series were there, too, with a fair balance of C2s and C2xs, with at least one C3. 

 

The larger proportion of tender locomotives surprised me, especially given St Leonards and Hastings both reputedly only had small turntables each (around 50-55' if I'm remembering correctly). Then again, perhaps this is to be expected - I've read much of the B series 4-4-0s being allocated to Hastings and Portsmouth expresses due to their light footing - the timings for a Brightonian Hastings train aren't too far behind that of their Kentish counterparts, so perhaps this has something to do with it? An effort to maintain a competitive timetable? The presence of two locomotives in particular which had higher-capacity tenders lead me to believe these may have been used on faster services, or perhaps even the coastal train to Portsmouth, which did two trips in each direction daily, if I'm remembering correctly. The 4-4-0s have been described as being used on Hastings and Portsmouth expresses, after all, so it may not preclude this duty...

 

B1s have been long noted on Hastings expresses, too, so I'm confident in their being prototypical. The Atlantic tanks might also have been on these trains?

 

I'm trying to form a clearer picture of what locomotives would have been seen on which services and it's actually turning out to be much more difficult than I anticipated. 

 

More pondering required.

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On 11/07/2020 at 13:35, AVS1998 said:

Interesting thing I gleaned the other day while researching SECR carriage liveries (quite the contentious topic as regards Lake and its shade/interpretation, I know) - anything teaked, ex-Chatham in particular, was likely to survive until at least 1911 without being repainted into the co-management livery, merely renumbered if appropriate and rebranded. 

 

At first I thought it seemed rather odd for a livery to survive that long, but if the wood was good and varnish intact, I suppose it makes sense to maintain it rather than rebrand for the sake of rebranding. 

 

I can't think of any models of SECR in teak, certainly not post-1899. 

 

 

 

I understand that teak has to be weathered for a number of years before it will take paint due to its oily nature. When the Midland took over the LT&SR, the coaches remained in teak for several years before being painted. 

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7 minutes ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

When the Midland took over the LT&SR, the coaches remained in teak for several years before being painted. 

 

As well as being oily, varnished teak is hardwearing, which is why it was popular as a carriage livery, particularly in the London area where suburban stock spent a lot of time in smoky areas, above all the Metropolitan and Metropolitan District lines. So I suspect that as there was no immediate need to repaint the LT&S carriages on maintenance grounds. Remember also that the Midland didn't take over the Tilbury until August 1912, so there were only two years of normal peacetime operation before the outbreak of the Great War. Apart from some St Pancras boat train sets ordered in 1913 and completed in 1915, it wasn't until the early 20s that the Midland started building new bogie stock for the Tilbury section; I suspect that was really the point at which the red livery became prevalent. The Midland renewed about 100 LT&SR carriages; the remainder went in the later 20s as the LMS continued the Midland carriage-building programme. I wonder how many ex-LT&SR carriages were in fact painted red?

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