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10 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

What sort of tool do you use?  There seem to be various types.

Hi James,

 

I have one of the early ones, 4", which is adequate for all I need.

 2088347677_Holdfold4.jpg.e23066a4ec6031179702edc4c540adf3.jpg

 

An explanation of the two strips of scrap etch and how they improve it's use are here.

 

There wasn't the same variety available when I got mine and there are now cheaper makes on the market. eg here.

 

Jim

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14 hours ago, AVS1998 said:

Good evening all,

@Skinnylinny and I were re-reading Weddell earlier tonight, comparing notes we'd found in other books on pre-grouping coaching stock, and we noticed that the D. 131 and D. 410 ex-LSWR BCKs, which we already knew of, had been dual-braked for working the aforementioned service. In addition to this, while discussing the merits of a 4mm representation of the clerestory dining saloons in their main iterations, it became apparent that these had also been used (or at least intended for use) on long-distance journeys from Bournemouth. It's because of this that I was pondering on their (highly unlikely) use on such trains from Dover.

This service had existed since at least 1911, with GWR, SECR, GCR and Midland portions (the train divided at Tonbridge, with the Midland continuing up to Metroland) and, as I've just learned, possibly an LSWR arm, too; 

[on the LSWR clerestory dining cars]: ''The first two, nos 78 and 79 which were built in mid-1910, were described in Volume One of Railway and Travel Monthly as intended for the Bournemouth to Birkenhead and Sheffield through service via Basingstoke and the Great Western Railway'' (Weddell, V. 2, p. 118). 

Now, I'm wondering if, since the BCKs were transferred to Kent and we know that in later years these through services used Maunsell dining saloons, as well as having the relevant foreign company provide (to a certain date) catering, too, whether these LSWR clerestories might have seen service - albeit brief - in Kent during the 1920s, or whether travellers would have to make do until the LSWR/other portion of the train was attached at Reading/Banbury? 

 

It appears the GWR and GCR both provided catering on some level, but I'm unclear on the particulars.

I hope that question makes sense!

N.B. PC Kits later Wheeltapper Models used to offer a kit for the LSWR clerestory dining car, and I think possibly also the re-built version in Southern livery (normal roof). These had lithograph printed sides with Methix transfers for the small details. Both of these firms have now disappeared and I do not think anybody is still selling the kits. 

I think that I have stashed an unbuilt kit for the LSWR one away, but I cannot remember where.

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41 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

N.B. PC Kits later Wheeltapper Models used to offer a kit for the LSWR clerestory dining car, and I think possibly also the re-built version in Southern livery (normal roof). These had lithograph printed sides with Methix transfers for the small details. Both of these firms have now disappeared and I do not think anybody is still selling the kits. 

I think that I have stashed an unbuilt kit for the LSWR one away, but I cannot remember where.

 

 

I often watch these on ebay then lose my bottle when it comes to bidding, thinking it would be another irrelevant purchase that would sit in a box or be sold on again (much like a Laura Ashley dress I bought as a birthday treat but doesn't fit me quite as well as I'd hoped. That's one to go on the sell pile...) but I'm hoping to have answers from the Southern Email Group sometime today. At any rate, even if it's not accurate, these saloons being used on Dover - Birkenhead trains, it makes sense in my mind so I may well buy one anyway. That'd be nice, another LSWR livery train behind an F1 or similar... 

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Further to this discussion, I was pondering on through carriages and just how many of them might have crossed paths, working their way up from the South to their respective destinations. I didn't get terribly far and I don't imagine too many are highly accurate but it was a fun exercise:

 

Dover - Birkenhead/Sheffield train, (From 1923 using ex-LSWR corridor composite brakes (dual-braked) alongside ex-SECR Birdcage/corridor third sets, GCR 1911 carriages, Midland and GWR carriages). Possibility that the LSWR through service via the Cross Country Route was also attached to this? Detached at Reading for Basingstoke onward? LBSCR through carriages also possibly attached, being removed at Ashford for Hastings onward? At Ashford, met Midland carriages from Thanet, Canterbury etc, and more again at Tonbridge with connecting passengers from LBSCR lines and Hastings. Midland now removed at Tonbridge for conveyance to Kentish Town and Met Lines, thence to the Midland Main Line, attached to a Northbound train which may well reach Glasgow via Leeds and the G&SWR (or at the very least, connections will be made available to passengers who need them)

 

Train continues to Reading, where it is joined by an ex-Bournemouth and an ex-Brighton/Eastbourne/Hastings portion for GWR destinations, heading for Banbury where the train divides once more with portions for Sheffield and the Midlands/Yorkshire via the GCR from the Southwest. Connected to the portion from Dover - catering is provided from Banbury onward by the Central. GWR connections are also made here - Birkenhead, Birmingham and Wolverhampton? 

 

Caledonian connection from Plymouth and Taunton to Glasgow via the Severn Tunnel, Newport, Hereford, Shrewsbury and Crewe on the joint line with the LNWR, making connecting with an Up LNWR service far easier (the Caledonian and/or GWR coaches being easily attached?) This train is also bound for Glasgow, among other major destinations? GWR and Caledonian coaches all in one train, possibly, or alternating GWR/Caley stock? 

 

Fairly certain I've read of L&Y through trains or excursions to the Southwest but I can't find anything on that. However, there were connections through to Great Yarmouth and Scotland via the G&SWR/Midland, possibly? (I know there were running rights over certain portions of the Midland and portions the LNWR but I'm too tired to work that out properly as a route). On that note, I think I've also read something of Glasgow stock making it south of the border, but rarely, even in LMS days - it usually stayed on home metals. A shame, as I think a twelve-wheel G&SWR dining car on a Southbound Leeds train could be a gorgeous thing to model. 

 

(Someone cure her of this affinity with twelve-wheelers, please!)

 

Anyway, that's it for now. 

 

I've no doubt many of you have proper corrections or timetables you can use as a guide for connections - I was working for fun, and on the little knowledge I have of these through connections.

 

- Alex 

Edited by AVS1998
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Aha - I have just reread an email with the L&YR Society, and in it destinations such as Torquay, Bournemouth, Cromer and Scarborough are mentioned. I expect then that anything L&YR from down in the Southwest may make its way back up north with the Caledonian stock, being passed onto the LNWR and then onto home territory. Similarly, with Bournemouth, it may have been made up into the Newcastle via Sheffield train, and attached to the portion I mentioned earlier? I'm likely greatly over-simplifying it (ah, to have simple pre-grouping journeys... That'd be a first)

 

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Somebody asked, on the Hornby coaches thread, so here's cut-and-paste:

 

In 1903 the Midland had through carriages or portions to:

  • Dover & Deal, from Manchester via Kentish Town, Met Widened Lines and the LCDR/SECR;
  • Southampton, from Bradford/Leeds via Cheltenham and the M&SWJR;
  • Bournemouth, from as far afield as Newcastle, via Bath and the S&DJR - with a reciprocal arrangement by which some S&DJR carriages were used for semi-fast services between Bristol, Birmingham, and Derby, to balance the mileage;
  • Various GWR west country destinations, including Weston and Plymouth, via Bristol;
  • Swansea, from Birmingham - Swansea was a Midland outpost but the through carriage was worked by GW train between Worcester and Hereford;
  • Aberystwyth, from Hereford via Three Cocks Jn and the Cambrian;
  • Llandudno, from Nottingham;
  • Bolton and Blackburn, from London via Manchester Victoria and the L&Y;
  • Blackpool and Southport, via L&Y (not checked route);
  • Barrow, from London via Leeds, Carnforth, and the Furness - connecting with steamers from Ramsden Dock;
  • Coniston, from Leeds via Carnforth and the Furness;
  • Windermere Lakeside and Whitehaven, as above, from London;
  • Newcastle, from Bristol, Birmingham, Derby etc.;
  • Hull, ditto;
  • Harrogate, as above plus London;
  • Bridlington, from Sheffield;
  • Edwinstowe LD&EC, from Manchester
  • Lynn, Cromer, and Norwich, from Birmingham and Leicester, via the M&GN;
  • Great Yarmouth ditto plus Liverpool and Manchester, Derby and Nottingham;
  • Ipswich from Birmingham and Leicester; Harwich from Manchester, via Peterborough and the GER;
  • Southend and Tilbury (P&O boat trains) from London via LT&SR.

If one is prepared to count joint stock under the Midland heading (and the joint stock was supplemented by Midland vehicles, including sleeping cars), then via the G&SWR:

  • Glasgow, Stranraer, Ayr, and Greenock;

and via the NBR and Highland, all via Edinburgh:

  • Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen, Perth, Inverness, and Fort William.

In general, these were all through carriages from the Midland. The only reciprocal workings I'm aware of are in fact the S&DJR stock mentioned above, Furness stock on the Barrow trains, and the SECR brake composite working through to Manchester. I don't believe the Midland had any examples of through carriages working off its lines at both ends of their run, in the manner of the GC's Newcastle-Bournemouth. 

 

I'm pretty confident there were no through workings of G&SWR carriages south of Carlisle - this was all covered by the M&GSW joint stock plus Midland vehicles. There's certainly no sign of that in the Midland's Anglo-Scottish carriage marshalling books for 1902, 1910, 1914, 1915, or 1922.

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That's much further afield than I anticipated, or at least more connections than I imagined. Fascinating stuff. 

 

As I say, it was just a late-night mental exercise, but no less curious. Of course, it doesn't mean I will go ahead and try to model many (if any!) of the aforementioned through coaches. 

 

Right, today consists of trying to track down a pair of old tutors from university who I can politely persuade to be my references for this MA application... 

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10 hours ago, AVS1998 said:

I've no doubt many of you have proper corrections or timetables you can use as a guide for connections - I was working for fun, and on the little knowledge I have of these through connections.

 

10 hours ago, AVS1998 said:

Aha - I have just reread an email with the L&YR Society, and in it destinations such as Torquay, Bournemouth, Cromer and Scarborough are mentioned. I expect then that anything L&YR from down in the Southwest may make its way back up north with the Caledonian stock, being passed onto the LNWR and then onto home territory. Similarly, with Bournemouth, it may have been made up into the Newcastle via Sheffield train, and attached to the portion I mentioned earlier? I'm likely greatly over-simplifying it (ah, to have simple pre-grouping journeys... That'd be a first)

 

You need to be aware of the distinctions between various operations:

Through coaches: handed over from one company to another for through passengers attached to existing services.

Through trains: whole trains operated over more than one company, with more than one company's locos, with at least 3 options for stock:

1. Joint stock, e.g. WCJS, Midland and G&SWR;

2. A set of stock supplied by each company, working alternately on an out-and-back basis;

3. A single set of stock working out and back (for a once a week service); and maybe a fourth:

4. A mixture of stock on the same service (possibly less common).

Working arrangements: where company A allows company B to use its tracks.

Running powers: where and Act of Parliament has made such access mandatory (not always used, though).

 

There is no guarantee that working arrangements were the obvious ones. It is perfectly possible for LYR coaches to work from Bournemouth to Oxford under LSWR power, and change their for GCR power to parts north, or maybe GWR power to Leicester GCR, then GCR to somewhere like Sheffield, for onward transit to Bradford. (That's conjecture on my part, but to make the point.) Except where in direct competition for traffic, the railway companies were generally fairly cooperative.

 

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Alex,

You also need to take into account summer and winter timetables.  There would be more in the summer.  The Midland for example, ran to Barmouth over the Cambrian from June to September only.  

 

The GWR actually had lists of what coaches made up its trains so everyone would know what stock to marshal and take to the terminus.  This includes through coaches, where they were going, where attached, and where detached.  My latest year is 1913 so I will see if anything is coming south.

 

Hope your application goes well.

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40 minutes ago, Regularity said:

There is no guarantee that working arrangements were the obvious ones. It is perfectly possible for LYR coaches to work from Bournemouth to Oxford under LSWR power, and change their for GCR power to parts north, or maybe GWR power to Leicester GCR, then GCR to somewhere like Sheffield, for onward transit to Bradford. (That's conjecture on my part, but to make the point.) Except where in direct competition for traffic, the railway companies were generally fairly cooperative.

 

My understanding is that at least in later pre-Grouping and early Grouping days, the usual arrangement was for the GCR Bournemouth trains to change engines at Oxford, exchanging their GCR locomotive for a LSWR one. I'm not sure if this was the arrangement from the introduction of the service in 1902, since there are photos of GWR 3031 Class singles at Leicester. Equally, at some dates, some of the services were worked by GWR locomotives from Banbury at least as far as Reading, possibly Basingstoke, as my understanding is the these trains ran via Reading West rather than reversing at Reading General.

 

48 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Through coaches: handed over from one company to another for through passengers attached to existing services.

Through trains: whole trains operated over more than one company, with more than one company's locos, with at least 3 options for stock:

1. Joint stock, e.g. WCJS, Midland and G&SWR;

2. A set of stock supplied by each company, working alternately on an out-and-back basis;

3. A single set of stock working out and back (for a once a week service); and maybe a fourth:

4. A mixture of stock on the same service (possibly less common).

 

One also has to take account of the accountants. My understanding is that if, say, a Midland carriage was used to provide a service over another company's line, that line would have to pay a hire charge based on mileage; in exchange, it would get a proportion of the receipts for through tickets, pro-rata by mileage. So it would be most favourable to the companies concerned for the through carriage to belong to the company over whose lines the greatest proportion of the journey ran. That, to me, makes it unlikely that a L&Y carriage would be used on a service via the GCR to the south coast.

 

Joint stock or alternating stock arrangements were a way of simplifying the financial transactions, though the RCH clerks would still be kept busy divvying up the receipts. The S&DJR case was a bit extreme, where S&DJR stock was on long-term loan to the Midland in exchange for the use of Midland vehicles between Bath and Bournemouth.

 

The Highland complained about having to convey sleeping cars from Euston, Kings Cross, and St. Pancras between Perth and Inverness. This is often presented as a question of train weight but I suspect it may have as much to do with having to shell out three sets of hire charges in exchange for the receipts from what, for much of the year, was probably only one sleeping car's worth of passengers.

 

Running powers were rather more to the advantage of the company being run over, especially goods trains, as they paid tolls - the downside being that they might be taking away traffic from the local company.

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12 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

The GWR actually had lists of what coaches made up its trains so everyone would know what stock to marshal and take to the terminus.  This includes through coaches, where they were going, where attached, and where detached.  My latest year is 1913 so I will see if anything is coming south.

 

All the large companies did. Several such carriage marshalling documents survive for the Midland and I believe also for the LNWR.

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

My understanding is that at least in later pre-Grouping and early Grouping days, the usual arrangement was for the GCR Bournemouth trains to change engines at Oxford, exchanging their GCR locomotive for a LSWR one. I'm not sure if this was the arrangement from the introduction of the service in 1902, since there are photos of GWR 3031 Class singles at Leicester. Equally, at some dates, some of the services were worked by GWR locomotives from Banbury at least as far as Reading, possibly Basingstoke, as my understanding is the these trains ran via Reading West rather than reversing at Reading General.

 

The arrangement between the GCR and GWR was complicated. Locos were exchanged at either Banbury or Leicester on the Barry services or Oxford or Leicester on other services. Each company ran the services for about 5 years on an equal milage basis. 

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After a few days' break from the Bedford kit, I decided to return to it with a clear mind and a bit of research on different compensation types.

 

I looked over the chassis etch again and noticed little tabs either side of all the W irons, and, having seen similar on separate W iron parts for wagons, realised that the compensation wire would be threaded through all of these, with the axle hanging strip (I don't know the proper term - the little tab with the inside bearing in it?) bent over the wire and with bearings held in place inside those, presumably by glue or by pressure from the wheels once fitted. 

 

image.png.ecea9b58c91c70c5a099e6754f1c7216.png

 

 

image.png.1fb257925599d38489892eff9499bafc.png

 

This makes sense enough to me, so I'll get those fitted in time. Firstly, though, I need to remove the underframe etch I tried to solder on with my iron which, in hindsight, is hopelessly inadequate. It's a fine iron, temperature controlled, it's just the actual tip isn't right at all, being a needle shape rather than a half-round chisel (I think that's right?) I see many people use for longer soldering runs. 

 

Once I've got that off, I'll be able to bend the chassis etch into its proper shape (it looks like I can build the body off the chassis and fix the two together later, which works for me) and fit the bearing bits and pieces.

 

On the subject of bearings, bogies and wheelsets, I've found the ones supplied with the Mallard kit very flimsy and much too prone to flexing under any type of pressure. Would anyone recommend the Roxey ones, or are there white metal bogies available? I'm not too bothered about the level of detail or if the bogies are sprung/compensated, so long as they hold the road and look the part. There's got to be demand for these bogies to be 3D-printed, too? I know I'd buy plenty! 

 

Or, if we nag Bachmann enough... 

 

- Alex 

 

 

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1 hour ago, AVS1998 said:

the axle hanging strip

 

The "dangly bit".

 

I've only used the etched brass version, where one is supposed to* bend the middle tab outwards , thread the wire through, then squeeze the middle tab back in place, so that the wire is held in place on both sides, just about visible here:

 

1315778991_LNWD32MousaW-ironunit.JPG.d032b893eb8cdf6ec6ca5e30432168de.JPG

 

... with the bearing soldered in place first.

 

But is this @billbedford's new printed version? In which case I would definitely glue the bearing in place as otherwise I wouldn't have enough hands to hold everything in place while putting the wheelset in - as far as I'm aware we're anatomically similar in that respect. 

 

 

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Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

The "dangly bit".

 

I've only used the etched brass version, where one is supposed to* bend the middle tab outwards , thread the wire through, then squeeze the middle tab back in place, so that the wire is held in place on both sides, just about visible here:

 

1315778991_LNWD32MousaW-ironunit.JPG.d032b893eb8cdf6ec6ca5e30432168de.JPG

 

... with the bearing soldered in place first.

 

But is this @billbedford's new printed version? In which case I would definitely glue the bearing in place as otherwise I wouldn't have enough hands to hold everything in place while putting the wheelset in - as far as I'm aware we're anatomically similar in that respect. 

 

 

 

That's exactly how it's supposed to look, yes! And it's all etched brass here. I only spoke of gluing the bearing in as it looked fiddly to solder, but then, if I'm soldering wire, I can solder a bearing... In theory. 

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Talking of dangly bits, I see I left an asterisk in there, which was supposed to lead to a footnote saying that this was what I'd worked out for myself, Bill being a man of few words when it comes to instructions. Though thinking about it, there was a generic instruction sheet (that I can't find on the revamped website) that had a very informative diagram.

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1 hour ago, AVS1998 said:

Firstly, though, I need to remove the underframe etch I tried to solder on with my iron which, in hindsight, is hopelessly inadequate. It's a fine iron, temperature controlled, it's just the actual tip isn't right at all, being a needle shape rather than a half-round chisel (I think that's right?) I see many people use for longer soldering runs. 

A tiddly, pointed soldering bit is OK for making electrical connections or getting into tight spaces, but doesn't transfer a decent amount of heat for kit assembly.  I use an 80W iron with a 2mm straight, not half round, chisel bit for 99.9% of work, including assembling 2FS kits.

 

When demonstrating on the 2MM Roadshow stand assembling a kit I often find I get asked more often about how to solder than about 2FS.   I always tell them you need 3 things for successful soldering, clean metal, flux and plenty heat.

 

Jim

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10 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

I always tell them you need 3 things for successful soldering, clean metal, flux and plenty heat.

 

The list of three - an ancient rhetorical device that means you don't have to mention the asbestos fingers.

 

Talking of which, I made a great leap forward when I bought one of these. (Other brands and suppliers are available.)

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The list of three - an ancient rhetorical device that means you don't have to mention the asbestos fingers.

You have to leave them to learn something for themselves!  You'll also notice I don't mention solder  (other than to tell them not to use lead-free)!!

 

Jim

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My fingers are slowly getting there, I do work in a warehouse and I'm head cook at home after all! And I think my best solder is leaded - I've an old electrical one in a slightly rude-shaped tube, recommended for radio and electrical work? 

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On 14/01/2021 at 17:39, Caley Jim said:

 I always tell them you need 3 things for successful soldering, clean metal, flux and plenty heat.

 

Jim

My last boss was a reasonably senior civil servant who had an unusually technical background. When I mentioned that one of my objectives in retirement was to teach myself to solder, his advice was concise. 

Clean it. 

Tin it. 

Stick it. 

I now appreciate the accuracy of his guidance - but I have also come to understand  that it does take a little practice!

Best wishes 

Eric  

 

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15 hours ago, burgundy said:

My last boss was a reasonably senior civil servant who had an unusually technical background. When I mentioned that one of my objectives in retirement was to teach myself to solder, his advice was concise. 

Clean it. 

Tin it. 

Stick it. 

I now appreciate the accuracy of his guidance - but I have also come to understand  that it does take a little practice!

Best wishes 

Eric  

 

From the man who showed me how to solder whitemetal kits at one of the Midhurst shows.

Ray

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