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Southern Railway Modelling - Original Condition Merchant Navy


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  • RMweb Gold
17 hours ago, Re6/6 said:

Their reputation is warranted with some excellent and others almost unbuildable! A friend was tasked by a previous owner of the company (it may have been as 'Falcon Brass')

to rewrite the instructions and that was his opinion.

 

This one obviously was buildable. I acquired it some years ago with one or two bits missing and with the motion needing sorting. The builder made a quite good job of it.

 

The intention is to P4 it and run it on Balcombe. Yes I know they were SW engines but rule 1...!

 

I'll be honest, I've read much more of the latter. I haven't tried one myself (yet), but as you right say, they must be buildable - here's the proof!

 

Does the motion work through the footplate? It sort of looks like it. It would be a very cool thing to reproduce.

 

16 hours ago, hayfield said:

Its a great pity with some ranges that they fade into obscurity, we have seen with some ranges they can be continued with new owners, perhaps there is a market for individuals/groups to each take over certain models, keeping the rarest of prototypes available?

 

I spoke at length with @Chuffer Davies recently about creating his own etches. He drew up and had etched a fantastic replacement chassis for the new Dapol mogul.

 

If one is willing to learn how to do this, pretty much any prototype is available to those who are (both interested and dedicated enough). In addition to this, once the costs from the first run have been recouped, the subsequent runs have a reduced cost. I mention this, not specifically with an eye to profiting, but with a view to 'crowdfund'. Mike Edge seems to have some of the most reasonably priced kits in the land, often producing bespoke etches (from what I understand) for some very unique models he is asked to build.

 

The slightly more difficult bit is the turnings/casting and all the little bits and pieces that make up the rest of a 'kit'. Nothing insurmountable though. 

 

14 hours ago, Blandford1969 said:

I would have thought there would be a market for some of the Highland and LSWR kits which no one else does. Maybe even an S11 or L12. 

 

I bet there would be, the LSWR derived locos seem to be very popular subjects. 

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3 hours ago, Jack P said:

Does the motion work through the footplate?

Yes it does as far as I can see. That's one problem to sort out. Some of it is missing on one side!

 

The conversion will be less daunting as it is already in EM and has two sprung axles and a bonus in having a Portescap fitted. 

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5 hours ago, Jack P said:

 

I'll be honest, I've read much more of the latter. I haven't tried one myself (yet), but as you right say, they must be buildable - here's the proof!

 

Does the motion work through the footplate? It sort of looks like it. It would be a very cool thing to reproduce.

 

 

I spoke at length with @Chuffer Davies recently about creating his own etches. He drew up and had etched a fantastic replacement chassis for the new Dapol mogul.

 

If one is willing to learn how to do this, pretty much any prototype is available to those who are (both interested and dedicated enough). In addition to this, once the costs from the first run have been recouped, the subsequent runs have a reduced cost. I mention this, not specifically with an eye to profiting, but with a view to 'crowdfund'. Mike Edge seems to have some of the most reasonably priced kits in the land, often producing bespoke etches (from what I understand) for some very unique models he is asked to build.

 

The slightly more difficult bit is the turnings/casting and all the little bits and pieces that make up the rest of a 'kit'. Nothing insurmountable though. 

 

 

I bet there would be, the LSWR derived locos seem to be very popular subjects. 

 

I do understand with modern CAD design methods etching is far easier than before, looking at what Dave (Cris P Bacon) has done shows its possible. But there is a lot of difference between drawing up a plan and designing a kit

 

I was more thinking that looking at something like the Falcon Brass range. As a complete range its possibly totally a non starter to reintroduce even a large but selective part of the range. But as I have said (probably badly) if someone or a group brought the artwork of for instance some or all of the LSWR locos, could the artwork be updated to allow etches to be updated and made available ? 

 

The benefit to the current owners is to recoup some of their investment, and to modellers reintroduce a rare and discontinued kit ?

 

I am a great believer in recycling model railway parts, I often buy a lot of several items, keep what is of use to me and sell on what I don't want to others. I would have thought the masters may have value individually ?

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Much of the Falcon brass range is well worth marketing, even if just as etches. Updating isn't really possible, with hand drawn artwork it would really be starting again. Depending on how the etch sheets are compiled (i.e. don't have lots of different kits mixed up on them) it should be easy to sell them at a reasonable profit - we do very nicely out of our "etches only" range and they are a lot quicker to pack than kits.

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As an LMS modeller, I  think the L&Y steam railcar would sell at least 50 units.
I think their wagon kits filled some interesting prototypes. They can be updated very easily.
The Jidenco GWR Cordon wagons, cover variants nobody else does.
I think Jidenco were the only people who kitted that high-sided LMS hybrid Fowler tender. I finally got one last year.

Jidenco are 'interesting to build.
If I can build 'em, anybody can.
Regards,
Chris.

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50 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

Much of the Falcon brass range is well worth marketing, even if just as etches. Updating isn't really possible, with hand drawn artwork it would really be starting again. Depending on how the etch sheets are compiled (i.e. don't have lots of different kits mixed up on them) it should be easy to sell them at a reasonable profit - we do very nicely out of our "etches only" range and they are a lot quicker to pack than kits.

There is a whole thread on Falcon Brass here:  https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/134140-falcon-brassworks-a-warning/page/12/

You are right, there were a lot of kits all etched together on a large sheet, they weren't done individually.

Even back then they had something of a "reputation"  I remember one of Iain Rice's early Modelling Weekends in Chagford, when he tried to persuade one participant (unsuccessfully) NOT to bring a Jidenco kit.

Cheers, Dave.

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8 hours ago, Jack P said:

 

 

 

I bet there would be, the LSWR derived locos seem to be very popular subjects. 

If you take just the LSWR engines the K10 has the same fittings and boiler as an M7

 

The L11, L12, S11 they all share the same chassis design being the same basic type as the T9. 

The chimney for the S11 and L12 are the same. 

The domes are the same across the range (according to Eastleigh drawings) 

 

The thing about the range is they could be made so much more buildable with more modern approaches. 

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I've built lots of Jidenco kits, starting with the very first one and I still have quite a few in store - none of them have been unbuildable although many are much more difficult than they should be and some are wildly inaccurate. When I started kit designing Ii realised after the first two that each kit has to have its own etch, the last pair we separated was the 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 Sentinels and they had remarkably stayed in step until Hornby took most of our market for the 0-4-0s.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • RMweb Gold
Posted (edited)
On 15/04/2021 at 05:01, Michael Edge said:

none of them have been unbuildable although many are much more difficult than they should be and some are wildly inaccurate

 

Slightly more slot & tab construction would greatly benefit many of them - obviously not so much where wild inaccuracies are present though.

 

Update!

I've been working on a few things for some friends. 

 

Oxford N7:

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A simple weathering job, nothing ott.

 

Oxford Diecast Steamroller:

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I was given creative control of this rather basic project. I stripped it right down, painted the gear red and a bunch of the pieces black. Also painted over the cream speckled wheels with a dull grey/black. I think the whole thing looks a lot less toylike.

 

SECR E:

 

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With the progress on the Rails D speeding up, I decided to try and get the E finished before it arrives. I completely de-soldered the chassis and re-assembled it in the poppies jig. This uses hornblocks on the front axle, and a compensation beam to the front bogie. My first attempt doing this, we shall see how it goes. I also pinched the tender from the L, because that needs far more work to be complete. The boiler is now soldered to the footplate, that means that there is really only the detailing left to do. I need to wait for my Gibson order to arrive before I finish the chassis - oh an I've got a single stage comet gearbox which is the only thing that looks like it'll fit in the boiler, it does mean that I need to order a 1.5mm worm though. Ugh!

 

I've also added some new kits and books to the collection:

 

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I am rather quickly running out of room though! The Sky Bogie was picked up locally, I'm not really sure what i'm going to do with it yet, it's complete with wheels/motor, but the motor was locked solid. Looking forward to seeing what i'm in for with the O1!

Edited by Jack P
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Good luck with the O1, it has some challenging parts, like the footplate in 2 halves that you then need to cut to get a motor into and a boiler which is sometimes ovoid. That said the castings are very nice (boiler apart) 

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • RMweb Gold
On 29/04/2021 at 19:19, Blandford1969 said:

Good luck with the O1, it has some challenging parts, like the footplate in 2 halves that you then need to cut to get a motor into and a boiler which is sometimes ovoid. That said the castings are very nice (boiler apart) 

 

Thanks for the heads up. A cursory glance at the kit reveals that the boiler in my one is nice and round, and the split footplate isn't too daunting, as my first ever kit was the N15x which was in 4 pieces!

I should be able to wiggle a HL box in there, using one of the smaller motors should also mean I won't have to cut the boiler too much.

The brass castings for things like the splashers are truly beautiful, very well cast.

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  • RMweb Gold

Update!

 

5605 Cyprus:

 

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This loco has taken a very long time to finish. A birthday present from my partner back in August 2019, it also bears the honour of being the first loco of the collection that I would regard as being 'fully' finished. Crew, coal, tools, lamps, renumbered, weathered, DCC fitted. I was a little apprehensive about the coal, but I think it turned out ok! Possibly the crew needs a little bit of toning down, as the blue seems very bright. but I can do that in situ. 

 

I also did a little more work on my DJH L:

 

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I filed the top of the frames flat, the DJH model has provision for the motor to be affixed sloping downwards using the frames as a mount. This means I can get a highlevel roadrunner + box into the space, and a huge 1330 can motor will stick into the boiler. I realised that i'll need a HL drive stretcher to get the motor to sit in the right place, difficult to obtain at the moment with HL on furlough - but a friend of mine had a spare one, which I have agreed to replace as and when I can. 

I also test fit the Gibson wheels and DJH coupling rods, everything rolls very smoothly, success! I might replace the rods with Gibson ones, just to add a bit of thickness, as the DH ones are only a single thickness and look a bit weak. The main body is soldered together and i'm just trying to decide what to do about the tender. I'm looking forward to finishing this one, as it'll be green!

 

DMR Z:

 

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As a quick aside, I'm still waiting on crossheads, nearly a year down the track (pun not intended) so I may have to make something else work. There are a number of other bits missing from the kit but I can sort those myself. 

 

Spent a few hours working on the coupling rods, I added the small bolts from some 0.8mm wire. The Loadhauler + box fits nicely and I test fit the wheels with the motor in place, leaving it to run in for about an hour in each direction all works as it should. I'm currently working on the balance weights, the ones from the kit are alright, but a little bit on the small side, i'm tempted to use them anyway, but I might give in and make some from plastikard instead 

I've also made a start on moving the motion bracket back in the frames, I assembled the bits slightly differently to the way the instruction suggest so it needs to shift backwards by about 2.5mm. No pictures yet, but soon. 

 

Finally, for a bit of fun I stripped down an oxford P.O wagon and added my Mum/Dad's family names to it:

 

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Dad was born in Woking, and lived there for a few (5, 7?) years, before emigrating to New Zealand.

 

That's all for now!

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  • RMweb Gold
Posted (edited)

A quick addition to the previous post.

 

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I spent last night attaching the various whitemetal castings to the cylinder block, as well as the slide bars. 

I also had a bit of a play with assembling the valve gear using 16BA nuts/bolts. You can see here how i've assembled the motion bracket differently to the way the instructions suggest. The part that stretches between the frames should be in the middle of the bracket, but to more closely resemble the prototype i've put it at the back. 

 

I'm toying with the idea of making the motion move the way it's supposed to. I used some 1mm rod and made a yolk from some spare etch which would work as the valve stem guide. The only tricky part from here is getting the radius arm to sit in the expansion link in the correct way to allow proper movement. Fundamentally though, I want a model which runs well, so if this impinges this, I will make it all static.

 

More head scratching required

Edited by Jack P
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Not too difficult with the Z, it doesn't have valve spindle guides it uses rockers instead - much easier to make and fit than fiddly guides and crossheads, just two extra pin joints needed.

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  • RMweb Gold
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Not too difficult with the Z, it doesn't have valve spindle guides it uses rockers instead - much easier to make and fit than fiddly guides and crossheads, just two extra pin joints needed.

 

I'll explore the possibilities of this tonight. I really need to sort the crossheads first, making sure everything runs sweetly before I go messing with this. The Bracket that the rockers attach to are fixed in place on the kit, and really to make this work I'd have to replace them with ones that can swing. Also on the left hand side there is a rod that runs from the valve stem up to the lubricator. Not impossible, but lots to consider.

 

I also chamfered the front coupling rod holes so that I can run the AG crank pin nut backwards - again to more closely represent the prototype. It's only been done on the right hand rod in this image.

 

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You may need to click onto the image to see it in close up.

 

30951 Maunsell Z class 0-8-0T

 

Edited by Jack P
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Another update:

 

I've managed to  get the yolks for the valve stems sorted. The left hand one has had the lubricator linkage bit added. Not sure what i'll actually do for that, probably solder it solid so it moves in the background.

 

Obviously there is heaps of slop present as nothing is fixed, it's all been bolted together. I now need to figure out how to attach the radius arm to the expansion link, as there isn't a nice little hole to locate it. 

 

Thank god i'm building this in 00, as I don't think it would be fine enough to pass muster in EM/P4

 

 

 

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You've missed out one of the joints, there's another pin joint between the rocker pivot and the valve spindle - otherwise it wouldn't work. The rocker describes an arc and the valve spindle has to move backwards and forwards only - this will only work if your valve spindle can rock up and down a bit. Easier to see in this 7mm W i built some years ago.

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It's a common SR arrangement and was carried on in the rebuilt Bulleid pacifics.

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  • RMweb Gold
Posted (edited)

That W is incredible Mike. Do you have any photos of it painted? 

 

12 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

You've missed out one of the joints, there's another pin joint between the rocker pivot and the valve spindle - otherwise it wouldn't work. The rocker describes an arc and the valve spindle has to move backwards and forwards only - this will only work if your valve spindle can rock up and down a bit. 

 

I think I understand, although I can't figure out where the extra pin joint needs to be. 

 

Does the combination lever need another hole in it, or should there be another link between the combination lever, radius rod and the connection to the valve stem crosshead?

 

wp6c5df8a6_05_06.jpg

 

Very much appreciate the expert advice!

Edited by Jack P
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I've not seen the W since the customer collected it, I can't see it in Ian Rathbone's gallery photos so I don't know who has painted it.

A section from my drawings for the W shows the extra pin joint.

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  • RMweb Gold

Thanks for the drawing Mike, that clarifies things a LOT.

It's a shame there aren't any completed pics. Have you done any other Big southern tanks?

 

On another note, here's a quick clip of the Z running in at a rather brisk speed. You can see that classic AG wheel 'bob'

 

 

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I've built most of them (except the LSW 4-6-2T and 4-8-0T) in various scales over the years but don't have any more digital photos. I built a Z from a Jidenco kit about 20 years ago and more recently re-gauged it to EM but I've no photos of it for some reason. It was a strange kit in many ways but actually went together very well, I'll get some photos of it next time I visit its owner.

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  • RMweb Gold
Posted (edited)

Thanks Mike, photos if & when would be awesome. 

 

I decided to use the Balance weights from the kit.

I also marked the wheels to make sure I don't mix up which side they're on - not the hardest thing to figure out if I get it mucked up, but easier this way. 

I'm confident the balance weights are the right size, and it's the bosses on the wheels that are a tad too small. Although these are designed as a GW wheel (IIRC), so that's no fault of Gibson.

 

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The superglue remover I used to tidy everything up took some of the metal blackening off. I had considered re-blackening them, but on the whole they are ok and will be painted soon anyway. They will get a decent clean up with some CIF and an old electric toothbrush. 

Tonight and any time I can find over the weekend will be working on scratch building the bits needed to finish off the motion. I've ordered some square brass tube and will have a go at making my own crossheads.

Edited by Jack P
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Hi Gents, don't know if this will be useful on the discussion on the valve gear, but whilst walking past Eddystone yesterday I took a couple of photos of the interesting bit: -

20210514_123839.jpg.2db87febf0fd63a5e32b9f1bf77f524b.jpg20210514_123847.jpg.7fa7178f4ace9cfe38f1dc1e5fe381ed.jpg20210514_123854.jpg.c10e4069c434166ff88e64cc2ba7565c.jpg20210514_123903.jpg.8e44fa39c9d12bca487e22db490813d1.jpg

Sorry about the number of similar shots but I wanted to get as much detail as possible.

As @Michael Edge says there is a short link between the rocking link and the valve spindle to translate the rocking motion to parallel motion.

 

Hope this is useful.

 

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  • RMweb Gold
On 15/05/2021 at 20:57, gz3xzf said:

Sorry about the number of similar shots but I wanted to get as much detail as possible.

 

This is exceedingly useful Bryan, thanks for the detail photos!

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  • RMweb Gold
On 13/05/2021 at 14:04, Jack P said:

Tonight and any time I can find over the weekend will be working on scratch building the bits needed to finish off the motion. I've ordered some square brass tube and will have a go at making my own crossheads

 

Ok so this didn't really happen. Numerous open homes and other domestic tasks took up most of our time this weekend.

 

I did manage to get some modelling done. 

 

Hornby GBL:

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My order from Kernow arrived, and I set about repainting one of the new GBLs. 2465 was identified as being in malachite in early 1950, and so with no evidence to the contrary I decided this would be the one. 

I've modelled the window bars 'broken' in one of the windows, something I on a smaller 4w Van. 

The model has had a light wash applied, further weathering will proceed when the others are ready. 

 

Rails Terrier:

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I spent a few hours last night getting this close to being finished. I ordered a westinghouse pump from Branchlines, which is the final piece of the puzzle.

Much like with the I3, there are a lot of pipes that run under the bufferbeam. These were all bent up from copper wire, lots of trial and error. I also added the chain that holds the front lower vac hose.

 

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Here she is with the pipes painted black and an initial light weathering on the bufferbeam, I also brush painted matte black onto the smokebox to get rid of the shiny gloss coat. 

It's not perfect, but I think it looks better with the pipes, than without. 

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  • Jack P changed the title to Southern Railway Modelling - Original Condition Merchant Navy

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