Deliberately Old-Fashioned 0 Scale - Chapter 1

[Nearholmer]

7 minutes ago, Donw said:

But there are people at least in 16mm who do have end to end layouts and shunt and run round

 

They do, but I was specifically referring to 0 scale pot-boilers. The move up to 16mm seems to make even pot-boilers viable as proper motive power, and internally fired locos are very viable indeed.

 

My first attempt at a 16mm garden railway was an out-and-back job, with a terrible gradient, and some awfully sharp curves, and although it took a bit of concentration that worked OK with internal gas fired locos. The same line would have been utterly unworkable with a BL Mogul, though.

 

There are two "mass movements" of interest here: 16mm live steam; and, 0 gauge electric. And, there are two small niches: 0 gauge clockwork; and, 0 gauge live steam. The mass movements are, I would suggest mass movements because those formats work without too much hassle, and have excellent trade support. The niches are niches because either requires great dedication to get the best from it (= hassle, unless you love it), and has minimal trade support from a few 'cottage industry' specialists.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

46 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

They do, but I was specifically referring to 0 scale pot-boilers. The move up to 16mm seems to make even pot-boilers viable as proper motive power, and internally fired locos are very viable indeed.

 

My first attempt at a 16mm garden railway was an out-and-back job, with a terrible gradient, and some awfully sharp curves, and although it took a bit of concentration that worked OK with internal gas fired locos. The same line would have been utterly unworkable with a BL Mogul, though.

 

There are two "mass movements" of interest here: 16mm live steam; and, 0 gauge electric. And, there are two small niches: 0 gauge clockwork; and, 0 gauge live steam. The mass movements are, I would suggest mass movements because those formats work without too much hassle, and have excellent trade support. The niches are niches because either requires great dedication to get the best from it (= hassle, unless you love it), and has minimal trade support from a few 'cottage industry' specialists.

That is an interesting perspective Kevin, one which I had never thought of.
 

I suppose clockwork would be more viable in my instance, as we are discussing my getting an apprenticeship with the firm, and they are full of ancient gears etc, so parts could be less of a problem. I do find clockwork to be the lesser of two evils, as live steam is, well, at least in my case, a constant battle with the engine.
 

Ideally I’d like to have a clockwork Bing for Bassett Lowke Caledonian Dunalastair, but $2,800 is lot for a 4-4-0! Here’s a photo of one, for the amusement of everyone. 

 

Douglas

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Florence Locomotive Works

[J. S. Bach]

3 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

A question for all those of this parish. Will I derive more enjoyment out of clockwork or live steam? ...snip...

thanks as always,

Douglas

Well, you will not burn the house down with the clockwork trains!

[andi4x4]

1 hour ago, J. S. Bach said:

Well, you will not burn the house down with the clockwork trains!

 

 

Oh, I don't know.... I always thought those candle lit Hornby stations were a bit dodgy !

 

Andi

 

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by andi4x4
poor spelling !

[GRASinBothell]

You were asking about springs for Hornby clockwork locos. There is a supplier listed in the HRCA spares directory.

Gordon

[Annie]

8 hours ago, Northroader said:

Percival Marshall did do a booklet on repairing clockwork mechanisms. It sticks in my mind that the spring normally goes across the outer end where it is notched. The book advised annealing just this end, to soften it, and putting new notches in. I’ve no practical experience of this, I’m afraid.

There was a chap in our local branch of the Hornby Collectors Association who was an expert at doing this and he did a couple of my engines for me.  A problem does arise though where a clockwork engine has broken its spring several times over the course of its life and the spring is now too short for useful running.

 

I eventually fell out with this expert though when he repaired an engine of mine that had rare Japaned components and he nickel plated them to 'brighten it up for me'.  It's alright though because no one will find where I buried his body.

 

7 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

But Jack Ray’s “A lifetime with O gauge” is slowly turning me towards clockwork. 

I have had completely clockwork layouts where I would shunt trains and do much the same as anyone would do with an electric railway.  The secret is to have very well fettled clockwork engines as well as selecting engines for particular jobs.  Even amongst engines that are supposed to be all identical you'll find a wide range of running characteristics.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Annie
can't spell for toffee

[Nearholmer]

If you are sold on clockwork, I would suggest steering clear of antiques until you’ve passed-out following you apprenticeship.

 

The ones to go for initially must be postwar Hornby 0-4-0 locos, which are (a) much more plentiful (b) much less costly (c) remarkably long-running. Many that come up for sale are pretty battered, so modifying or repainting is no crime - the mint condition ones are for collectors, rather than runners, anyway.

 

Next, I would suggest, are Hornby No2 Special (the ugly ones, not ordinary No2), which are again plentiful and fairly cheap in tatty condition.

[Donw]

If Brian were to run lockwork engines on a baseboard at a sensible height it is quite sensible for elderly persons. None of that grubbing under the baseboard with wires. Most will go round corners so can be fitted in a small enough space. Huge layouts can be tiring if you need to walk from end to end.

 

I suppose most steam enthusiasts gravitate to 16mm or G1 so there isn't a ready made market for 0 gauge ones.  I think that may be a bigger issue than the technial ones. Old steam engines is more of a collector thing. The same with Clockwork ones too. I cannot imagine someone choosing clockwork as motive power unless interested in old models. These days I would suggest radio controlled battery powered models  beats clockwork if you are interested in operation but dont want to be tied to track power.

 

There is however a charm and character inherrent in these old models. I am old enough to have started with Hornby 0 gauge (a brand new set I believe ) so do respond to them despite my leanings to something more scale. My late FiL much preferred to see old Hornby trains than my scale models.

 

Don

[Annie]

I forget how many Hornby type '101'/type '40' post war clockwork 0-4-0T's I own.  They can be picked up fairly easily in playworn condition and shouldn't cost much.  Some of my tatty ones are better runners than the pristine ones most probably because their mechs are well run in.  They are very easy to take apart and repair and even dented ones can be readily straightened out with a little careful work.  They're easy to refresh with a new coat of paint too if you have a steady hand with a paintbrush.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Annie
fumble brain

[Annie]

I've never liked the No.1 Special tanks all that much.  There was an article in one of the HRCA magazines on how to turn one into a somewhat more believable 4-4-0T using standard Hornby parts, but I never tried it myself.

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Responses to the aesthetics of Hornby generic/freelance locos always generate controversy, so being careful to make clear that is is very much personal opinion, I don't like the look of the No.1 Special Tank either, which is a pity really, because they are good runners, and the electric version is a very practical little engine for small layouts. I think Hornby blew it completely with the cab-sides, which look utterly crude when compared with the rest of the loco, which has curious proportions, but at least looks well-executed. Looks-wise, I much prefer the tender version, which has a decent cab and a very respectable tender.

 

Of course, I dislike the No.2 Special Tank most of all, but when I said that before those in whose eyes they are beauties leapt to their defence. 

 

Basset-Lowke managed to produce an ugly duckling too, in the form of the Standard 0-4-0T, which only figured in the catalogue for two or three years. I usually partially conceal mine in photos, but here it is for all to see. This is what happens when you saw a section out of the middle of an already over-sized 0-6-0T design!

 

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Nearholmer

[sncf231e]

15 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

A question for all those of this parish.

 

Will I derive more enjoyment out of clockwork or live steam?

Douglas

It is difficult to judge about your enjoyment. I do clockwork, steam and electric and I enjoy both steam and electric more than clockwork. But most of my steam locos are gauge 1. For 0 gauge I would say electric is the most enjoyable. I might spend 1 hour playing with clockwork trains but easily 3 or 4 hours playing with steam or electric trains.

 

I’d also would like to have a clockwork Bing for Bassett Lowke Caledonian Dunalastair, but rather spend that amount (and sometimes more) on a good running steam or electric locomotive.

 

Regards

Fred

[Nearholmer]

Still waiting for paint to arrive, so can’t work on Old George; have got the GWR loco as far as a test-run under electric power, after a long tussle with how best to fit the bogies (without springs was the eventual answer), and now need to source some weights for that; so, what next from the project drawer?

 

Well, next up is a Mills 4-4-2T, which needs two new buffers and, more importantly, a motor that works. As you can see, I have the original motor, and a slightly later one with better design of brush-holder, but both magnets are decidedly unmagnetic, and since I don’t have a magnetising coil it’s either stick neo magnets on, or send them off for re-mag.

 

If you scroll down through this interesting article, you can see further details of this loco/mechanism 

https://www.milbromodelrailways.co.uk/locomotives.html

 

The thing about this loco is that it is built like the proverbial BSH, nice thick sheet-work, so although it isn't perfectly straight, its vastly better than most contemporary Hornby (which got heavily played-with), and less fragile than BL. Definitely a loco designed and built with the operator in mind.

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Nearholmer

[F-UnitMad]

9 hours ago, Donw said:

 

There is however a charm and character inherrent in these old models.

Indeed there is, which is why although as models they aren't for me, I do follow a Thread like this one, and at Shows (remember those?) I often find the "Tinplate/3-rail Relentless Oval" layout one of the most entertaining present, as it's all action and the stuff sounds like the real thing rattling around, & has an atmosphere all of it's own.

[Simond]

In addition to which, I would suggest that this thread also has a charm & character all of its own... so despite being unashamedly 0MF, I do enjoy the ride.

 

cheers

Simon

[Keith Addenbrooke]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Responses to the aesthetics of Hornby generic/freelance locos always generate controversy, so being careful to make clear that is is very much personal opinion, I don't like the look of the No.1 Special Tank either, which is a pity really, because they are good runners, and the electric version is a very practical little engine for small layouts. I think Hornby blew it completely with the cab-sides, which look utterly crude when compared with the rest of the loco, which has curious proportions, but at least looks well-executed. Looks-wise, I much prefer the tender version, which has a decent cab and a very respectable tender.

 

Of course, I dislike the No.2 Special Tank most of all, but when I said that before those in whose eyes they are beauties leapt to their defence. 

 

Basset-Lowke managed to produce an ugly duckling too, in the form of the Standard 0-4-0T, which only figured in the catalogue for two or three years. I usually partially conceal mine in photos, but here it is for all to see. This is what happens when you saw a section out of the middle of an already over-sized 0-6-0T design!

 

 

Please forgive me if this is just my strange way of seeing things, but looking just (only) below the running plate does remind me of Ivor the Engine: 0-4-0 with close together wheels in the centre of the frame..  Is it possible that Firmin and Postgate were influenced by this type of model for a TV programme first made in the late 1950s?  (Above the running plate it is quite different: there are only two whistles, for example)?  Just wondered.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

6 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Still waiting for paint to arrive, so can’t work on Old George; have got the GWR loco as far as a test-run under electric power, after a long tussle with how best to fit the bogies (without springs was the eventual answer), and now need to source some weights for that; so, what next from the project drawer?

 

Well, next up is a Mills 4-4-2T, which needs two new buffers and, more importantly, a motor that works. As you can see, I have the original motor, and a slightly later one with better design of brush-holder, but both magnets are decidedly unmagnetic, and since I don’t have a magnetising coil it’s either stick neo magnets on, or send them off for re-mag.

 

If you scroll down through this interesting article, you can see further details of this loco/mechanism 

https://www.milbromodelrailways.co.uk/locomotives.html

 

The thing about this loco is that it is built like the proverbial BSH, nice thick sheet-work, so although it isn't perfectly straight, its vastly better than most contemporary Hornby (which got heavily played-with), and less fragile than BL. Definitely a loco designed and built with the operator in mind.

 

I see I'm not the only one who chosen the difficult route of drilling holes with an eggbeater drill! Mine is an ancient Craftsman one from the 1950s, but at some point I'll invest in a nice edwardian Goodell Pratt one. The marvellous specimen below is a 1920s two speed model that has been very well restored. (https://michael-parrish.com/2016/05/31/goodell-pratt-5-12-b-two-speed-hand-drill-restoration/)

 

Douglas

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Nearholmer]

That yellow Stanley drill is the most disappointing thing I ever bought (well, I have bought shoes that were worse). I had a very good one, given to me by my father, really smooth, everything about it tightly toleranced, but the chuck eventually died, so I tried to source a new chuck - no hope, apparently the thread it is fitted with was obsolete in the twelfth century (I may exaggerate) . So, off I toddled to posh tool-shop near my old office and asked for the best small hand-drill they had. On beginning to use it, I discovered that it is rubbish, very poorly made, so that it jumps out of engagement when much torque is applied. They don't make 'em like they did in the old days! I'm now looking-out for a better one. I like hand-drills because you get instant feedback if a bit is snagging.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Mark Carne]

13 hours ago, Annie said:

I've never liked the No.1 Special tanks all that much.  There was an article in one of the HRCA magazines on how to turn one into a somewhat more believable 4-4-0T using standard Hornby parts, but I never tried it myself.

 

 

 

Brought this a few years ago, as a bit of vintage bodging, it really appealed to me!

 

Mark

[Donw]

2 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

I see I'm not the only one who chosen the difficult route of drilling holes with an eggbeater drill! Mine is an ancient Craftsman one from the 1950s, but at some point I'll invest in a nice edwardian Goodell Pratt one. The marvellous specimen below is a 1920s two speed model that has been very well restored. (https://michael-parrish.com/2016/05/31/goodell-pratt-5-12-b-two-speed-hand-drill-restoration/)

 

Douglas

 

 

I also use a hand drill of that type not quite of that standard  (plastic handle not nice polished wood). I find the minicraft electric high speed drill inclined to skid off maring the surface of something before you are aware of it. I am much more in control of the egg beater.

 

Don

[Ben B]

On 03/12/2020 at 00:46, Florence Locomotive Works said:

That is an interesting perspective Kevin, one which I had never thought of.
 

I suppose clockwork would be more viable in my instance, as we are discussing my getting an apprenticeship with the firm, and they are full of ancient gears etc, so parts could be less of a problem. I do find clockwork to be the lesser of two evils, as live steam is, well, at least in my case, a constant battle with the engine.
 

Ideally I’d like to have a clockwork Bing for Bassett Lowke Caledonian Dunalastair, but $2,800 is lot for a 4-4-0! Here’s a photo of one, for the amusement of everyone. 

 

Douglas

 

 

That is absaloutely gorgeous... I wish I had the budget for something like that, even just for it to sit on the mantlepiece!

[Guest Isambarduk]

On 02/12/2020 at 23:27, Donw said:

see here for steel https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173584705648?var=472997842642

That's useful to know, and heading in the right direction ... but the flat offerings are only 10" / 250mm long.  D

[Ben B]

15 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Please forgive me if this is just my strange way of seeing things, but looking just (only) below the running plate does remind me of Ivor the Engine: 0-4-0 with close together wheels in the centre of the frame..  Is it possible that Firmin and Postgate were influenced by this type of model for a TV programme first made in the late 1950s?  (Above the running plate it is quite different: there are only two whistles, for example)?  Just wondered.

 

I've often wondered if Ivor was based on one of the Hornby clockwork 0-4-0's, maybe they used one as a drawing model?  It would be easy to imagine the stories with a little green tank loco, one or two items of stock, and complex. tightly-curved tracks being inspired by a childhood tinplate set.

 

Shameless thread-hijack, but I couldn't resist with the talk of Hornby clockwork and Ivor the Engine:

 

 

One of my projects to keep me sane in Lockdown Part One...  Entirely the fault of this thread though.  I fell in love with the idea of having lots of clockwork trains, then realised I didn't have the budget or space for 0 gauge.  But the spiritual successors to all this wonderful tinplate are the cheap-as-chips starter locomotives produced by Triang-Hornby, Playcraft etc, so I started buying some of them, and as I already had a circuit of ridiculously tight-radius Welsotoys track from childhood, a micro layout seemed a good project.

 

I was reading the Ivor stories to my youngest as the book at bedtime, so leant into the 'short trains, tight curves' thing and built Ivor.  Fittingly perhaps, he's built around a knackered clockwork Thomas the Tank Engine, with a load of plasticard and scrap bits

 

Apologies for hijacking with all this talk of cheap plastic clockwork...  I'll let you get back to proper tinplate now

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

I've certainly seen a tin, or possibly cardboard, 'Ivor' on a Hornby clockwork chassis, running I think on a 16mm/ft railway - I have a dim recollection that someone sold a printed cut-out kit for that very purpose for a while.

 

Does make you wonder if one of the originators had a clockwork set around the house, or fond memories of one from a pre-war childhood. One of them must have been a bit of a railway enthusiast with knowledge of the Welsh NG lines to have come up with the whole thing, likewise Gordon Murray who made Chigley, and Ivor Wood who gave the train a prominent part in Postman Pat, and helped create the acid-trip-style loco that appeared in The Magic Roundabout. Bob Symes, to use his truncated title, made a good little animated film of his 00 layout in the 50s that the BBC used as a "filler", I think, so maybe all these BBC-types had a soft spot for trains.

 

For those with time on their hands https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=magic+roundabout+train&&view=detail&mid=531E04C60E8C742CE336531E04C60E8C742CE336&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dmagic%2Broundabout%2Btrain%26FORM%3DHDRSC3

 

This toy looks rather good!

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Nearholmer

[APOLLO]

I bought one of these for the kids many moons ago - still have it complete in box. It's a very well thought out engineering wise and fascinating thing to watch.

 

 

I'm going to put it out at Christmas !!

 

Brit15