Show us your Pugbashes, Nellieboshes, Desmondifications, Jintysteins

[33C]

The best smell is brake dust, horse hair and "Speed-clean". Or, as i know it, British Rail! Last time i got a wiff of B.R. was in the old down-side porters room at Benfleet. Lovely!

[LNWR18901910]

Y'know, I ought to include some of my own tank engines from the WMR here, maybe. An 0-6-2T I already have on my workbench and an 0-4-4T and an 0-6-0ST are in planning stages ATM.

[Sophia NSE]

31 minutes ago, LNWR18901910 said:

Y'know, I ought to include some of my own tank engines from the WMR here, maybe. An 0-6-2T I already have on my workbench and an 0-4-4T and an 0-6-0ST are in planning stages ATM.

I'm always interested in seeing an 0-4-4

[RosiesBoss]

G'day, all,

 

Your wish, Sophia, is my command!

 

Here's my 0-4-4T, converted from a Tri-ang Jinty, generally in accordance with an article in Railway Modeller, Jan 1978:

 

More details of the conversion may be found here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/galevans.html

 

Happy modelling!

 

Regards,

 

Rob

[TangoOscarMike]

19 hours ago, Sophia NSE said:

I'm always interested in seeing an 0-4-4

I agree. It's not as clumsy or random as 0-4-0 or 0-6-0. An elegant weapon wheel arrangement for a more civilized age.

[sem34090]

W.I.P. Bachmann L&Y Tank bash. Yet to gain a weatherboard, condensing gear and possibly outside cylinders. The smokebox door needs alteration too.

Ignore the Dragon; That's my partner's...

Colour is Humbrol LNER Apple Green.

Edited December 26, 2020 by sem34090

[SteveyDee68]

On 18/06/2020 at 20:19, Captain Pugbash said:

Two donor Hornby versions of the 0-4-0 and a jinty chassis, and you've pretty much got this

 

Decided to revisit this thread all the way from post #1, to try to kickstart my creative mojo... as a supply teacher, music teacher, musical director of stage musicals and musician, I thrive off social interaction, and 2020 has simply not been the year for that!

 

RMWeb is not only informative and inspirational, it has also proven to be something of a mental health lifebelt to me, as I have "survived" the year reading threads, asking occasional questions, and 'squandering' what little money I have had come in on eBay 'bargains' ... well, except for the Hattons P Class they had in their Xmas sale! In private messages, I have been given the information and inspiration towards some serious coach-bashing!

 

But inspiration towards and aspiring to and actually doing can be totally incompatible when the creative (in this case, modelling) mojo has disappeared into the ether...

 

What on earth does the above off topic ramble have to do with pug bashing?! (I hear nobody cry, as everyone has given up reading by now!)

 

Well, it turns out rereading the thread has led to a revelation, an indication that it was the right thing to do, a sign, if you will...

 

With heartfelt thanks to everyone on RMWeb for being lifesavers, but particularly in this instance to Captain Pugbash, as I am now abuzz with excitement, and shall pursue the two loco bodies as above on eBay with renewed interest! (I already have a 'Terrier' chassis that might do the trick!)

 

After all, how could I not model a loco with (almost) my surname, and which somehow I had missed when reading the thread the first time around! Moral of the story? Revisit a thread you are interested in, and discover things you may have missed previously!

 

A belated Merry Christmas to all RMWebbers, and the very best in health, happiness and modelling mojo for 2021!

 

Steve Sandiford

[SteveyDee68]

On 18/06/2020 at 13:42, Adam FW said:

Coming back on topic here’s my latest model. In this case a (new) terrier bash where the chassis has been cut down to fit under a 3d printed manning wardle body I designed

 

 

 

I missed this at the time, else I would have commented!

 

I wonder, when looking at 3D designed/printed models such as the above by Adam FW whether the verb "bash" is the right one to apply? This looks akin to RTR standards, using modelling techniques which are as amazing to me as the hand crafted, professional level examples seen on this thread.

 

Maybe I am thinking too much about it, but "bash" seems to me to indicate a rough and ready approach! How do we elevate something to above a "bash" when describing it? There are plenty of examples here - ranging from exquisite hand-built compensated chassis and meticulously - almost surgically - precision altered bodywork to examples of amazing conceptual modifications carried out against all odds!

 

Perhaps I am overthinking! I guess that is what the "craftmanship" (craftwomanship?!) button is all about. Perhaps the huge amount of booze I drank last night has left me loquacious in my admiration of the "bashers" on this thread...

 

Long live the Pugbashers, the Nellieboshers, the Desmodifiers and the Dr Jintysteins!

 

Steve S

[Adam FW]

44 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said:

 

I missed this at the time, else I would have commented!

 

I wonder, when looking at 3D designed/printed models such as the above by Adam FW whether the verb "bash" is the right one to apply? This looks akin to RTR standards, using modelling techniques which are as amazing to me as the hand crafted, professional level examples seen on this thread.

 

Maybe I am thinking too much about it, but "bash" seems to me to indicate a rough and ready approach! How do we elevate something to above a "bash" when describing it? There are plenty of examples here - ranging from exquisite hand-built compensated chassis and meticulously - almost surgically - precision altered bodywork to examples of amazing conceptual modifications carried out against all odds!

 

Perhaps I am overthinking! I guess that is what the "craftmanship" (craftwomanship?!) button is all about. Perhaps the huge amount of booze I drank last night has left me loquacious in my admiration of the "bashers" on this thread...

 

Long live the Pugbashers, the Nellieboshers, the Desmodifiers and the Dr Jintysteins!

 

Steve S

 

thanks Steve, I’m certainly very proud of this model and it was a major step forwards for my modelling both virtually on CAD and in the more traditional cutting, sanding, painting sense 

 

I treat this a bash as opposed to one of my body kits as it isn’t accurate to anything and was never meant to be. It may look like a manning wardle but really it’s a combination of different manning wardle features that never necessarily went together that have been stretched and squashed to fit on a modified RTR chassis

 

I too am amazed by some of the skills that people have to make craft their own bashes. Personally I’ve never been very good at hand making anything, give me a ruler and a craft knife and I’ll cut a wonky line, but I can do 3d modelling and printing which I see as just a different way to get to the same end result, ultimately we all work with the skills and tools that we have and this thread is a great place to see all those different techniques in use

 

looking back at my post from 6 months ago I never did provide an update on the model. Well here is the nearly finished ‘Corsair’, I just need to find a nice Edwardian style loco crew to finish it off

 

 

 

[cypherman]

14 hours ago, RosiesBoss said:

G'day, all,

 

Your wish, Sophia, is my command!

 

Here's my 0-4-4T, converted from a Tri-ang Jinty, generally in accordance with an article in Railway Modeller, Jan 1978:

 

More details of the conversion may be found here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/galevans.html

 

Happy modelling!

 

Regards,

 

Rob

This sort of reminds me of the Drummond Class X I made earlier in the year. Making something similar but not the same.

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by cypherman

[33C]

This may be controversial but... I don't think 3D printing a body or component is "modelling", don't get me wrong, it's a means to an end and good luck, but bashing what you have lying around in the house or you have found at a sale,market,jumble into a passing resemblance of whatever, demands imagination which leads to research, history and craft. If i had my earliest "bash", (3rd hand, tender-less, damaged Tri-ang princess with smashed cab), which morphed into a Hughes "Crab", with a 2P tender my nan found at the Sally army jumble and compared it to my latest offerings you could see my progression. I know my limitations at the moment, but each model, be it train,tank,ship or plane i  model, i try to make it mine own and each to his own and that's why i come on here, to get ideas and inspiration especially to see "What did he/she make that out of? And are there the raw materials in my recycling bin?!" But, Kudos to those who can write a 3D program!

[Mountain Goat]

3D printing is a difficult one to know where it fits in. There is quite a bit of skill involved in writing the programs and the parts do need a little work to make them look nice. It is along the same lines as scratchbuilding but from a different angle. The approach is very different, and there are more then one form of making the program, as one can scan a prototype and directly transfer the dimensions if one is lucky enough to own such equipment, or one can program the computer oneself which is a skill in itself, or one can in some circumstances (Or there is potential to do this) download ---》 Print ---》 build though I am not sure if this approach is available as yet. (I don't see why not if it can be done for card buildings why not on a D printing device?)

I am kinda with you in that there does need to be a different term other then to call it scratchbuilding BUT this does not mean that it does not take skill, and to be honest, the results from 3D printing remind me of buying a resin cast kit where it is a half way between scratchbuilding and kitbuilding in that one has castings which need to be made to fit. (They rarely fit without a little filing or sanding). 

Having said that, the results are amazing ad half of the work that a scratchbuilder does is needed even when assembling a kit or a 3D build or a kitbash, or a RTR bash which is more of us actually do if we convert a Hornby 0-4-0 or any other locomotive into something more unusual. 

 

I have never 3D printed anything myself but I have tried a little resin csting which I did enjoy doing!

 

 

Here is another thought along similar lines. One can have one modeller who finds all sorts of scraps like old tins or wood and creates a masterpiece, and another modeller can buy some brass or plasticard sheets, and buys in all sorts of lovely pre built and pre cast fittings, and build themselves a lovely model. Now are they both on the same level? As one could argue that the one who bought the more suitable materials at almost a no expense spared had a massive advantage on the other who had to think more outside the box to get his scraps of materials to form into a nice model? Now the element of 3D printing is along the same lines but at yet another level, so it can loosely be described as scratchbuilding but one has formed the parts in a different way. 

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Mountain Goat

[33C]

3D printing fits where you want it to fit, depending on the individual. It does save time which is something many have precious little of! I try to do a little something to the models i have on the go at least once a day, maybe 5 mins to attach a part or 20 mins to put a second coat of paint on or an hour to cut a cab out and over a month i like to see the progress. A 3D model is 90% done in one hit and no shame in that, horses for courses...lining, i need a day at least and i've got to be in the right frame of mind! Mind you, thinking about it, is an Airfix/Dapol kit a 3D model, just not assembled?

[Mountain Goat]

13 minutes ago, 33C said:

 Mind you, thinking about it, is an Airfix/Dapol kit a 3D model, just not assembled?

That is along the lines of what I was thinking if it wasn't for the need to program the thing. I can imagine what would happen if I tried to 3D print something! Probably get the wrong scale and get life sized components whirring out of the machine.

 

The next stage in 3D printing will likely be self coloured components ready lined and liveried etc... After all, it can be done with 2D so why not 3D? An interesting concept!

[33C]

10 years down the line and we could 3D print ourselves to do the decorating, shopping, work etc and leave me more time for modelling! (Don't tell the wife........)

[BlueLightning]

I say the following as someone who scratch builds, kit builds, and makes 3D models.

 

8 hours ago, 33C said:

bashing what you have lying around in the house or you have found at a sale,market,jumble into a passing resemblance of whatever, demands imagination which leads to research, history and craft.

 

Do you think the design magic's itself into existence to be printed? There is imagination, leading to research, history, and craft involved in making some to print.

 

7 hours ago, 33C said:

It does save time

 

The words of someone that has never tried to make a 3D model

 

7 hours ago, 33C said:

A 3D model is 90% done in one hit

 

and how did it get "90% done"? It's had a lot of work go into it to get it there, in fact I have never put as many hours into a scratch built wagon as I have into the wagon I am currently making for 3D printing.

 

Gary

 

 

[robert17649]

IMHO making any model of anything in any medium requires history craft and research before even starting .

Provided of course that you want something that looks something like the thing you are modelling.

[Corbs]

I think there is a misapprehension that to 3D print something, you scan it using the magic computer which provides a perfect virtual copy of the object that you can then print.

What it actually does is spit out a mess of points in space, not a straight line anywhere, that is almost impossible to manipulate without major reworking.

I don’t know any cottage industry 3D designers who use scanning other than for humans, where the multiple vertices and bumps come out as useful folds in clothing. In many instances it’s easier to work from a diagram of the machine you want to model.

In the case of our Avonside B4 kit, no technical drawings from the manufacturer were available, so we measured every point on the loco we could think of, how it all related to each other, pored over dozens of photographs just to get the basic dimensions. Then we went through multiple design iterations to work out how the kit might fit together, how to get it to work on the chassis, several test prints to make best use of the space, bought the components which we could not print such as handrail knobs, undertook 2 full test builds before we could make something that the end user still needs to assemble, clean, paint, detail themselves.

So I don’t see how gluing together an airfix kit or soldering a DJH kit together could be Modelling but the above would not be. 
Is buying a part built kit and finishing it off classed as Modelling or has someone else done the modelling for you?

For that matter, is gluing some lamps onto a Hornby A3 not Modelling?

In this instance, I feel ‘modelling’ has been conflated with ‘scratch building’. 
Even then, when someone designs their own model from scratch, be it in a CAD program or on a piece of plasticard, for me that still swings over towards the latter.

 

To exclude any practical creative process as ‘not modelling’ for me goes against the spirit of this thread.

[Compound2632]

All techniques are means to an end - creating a model which (variously, in varying degrees) is an accurate reproduction of the object modelled and provides satisfaction to the builder.

 

The use of a RTR/RTP item is modelling, if it forms an element in creating the modelled scene.

[Gibbo675]

12 minutes ago, Corbs said:

I think there is a misapprehension that to 3D print something, you scan it using the magic computer which provides a perfect virtual copy of the object that you can then print.

What it actually does is spit out a mess of points in space, not a straight line anywhere, that is almost impossible to manipulate without major reworking.

I don’t know any cottage industry 3D designers who use scanning other than for humans, where the multiple vertices and bumps come out as useful folds in clothing. In many instances it’s easier to work from a diagram of the machine you want to model.

In the case of our Avonside B4 kit, no technical drawings from the manufacturer were available, so we measured every point on the loco we could think of, how it all related to each other, pored over dozens of photographs just to get the basic dimensions. Then we went through multiple design iterations to work out how the kit might fit together, how to get it to work on the chassis, several test prints to make best use of the space, bought the components which we could not print such as handrail knobs, undertook 2 full test builds before we could make something that the end user still needs to assemble, clean, paint, detail themselves.

So I don’t see how gluing together an airfix kit or soldering a DJH kit together could be Modelling but the above would not be. 
Is buying a part built kit and finishing it off classed as Modelling or has someone else done the modelling for you?

For that matter, is gluing some lamps onto a Hornby A3 not Modelling?

In this instance, I feel ‘modelling’ has been conflated with ‘scratch building’. 
Even then, when someone designs their own model from scratch, be it in a CAD program or on a piece of plasticard, for me that still swings over towards the latter.

 

To exclude any practical creative process as ‘not modelling’ for me goes against the spirit of this thread.

Hi Corbs,

 

Well said, I would say that modelling is whatever you want it to be in what ever medium and techniques you choose to employ.

 

Here are some that I have built, one of which featured on this thread:

 

1. Trix AL1 bashed in to an AL4 with scratch built bogies, Somerfeldt pantograph and a lima motor; RTR bash with scratch built parts.
2. Scratch built Y6 on Dapol Pug chassis; Scratch build and RTR chassis.
3. Dapol/Airfix Presflo with Railtec transfers; Kit build.
4. Newman Miniature 3d print of Rocket to be motorised using Romford wheels and a N20 motor; 3d print and scratch built chassis.

I could have probably scratch built both the AL4 and the Presflo but it was much easier to use RTR parts and supplied kits and then modify them. The Y6 was an easy scratch build except that I had no way to build a chassis at the time. The 3d printed Rocket is being used for the print offers structural integrity that the Dapol Rocket does not, and also should it be a success I shall build some of the other L&MR variants on offer.

 

All different, all models, all fun !!!

 

Gibbo.

 

 

[sem34090]

1 hour ago, BlueLightning said:

Do you think the design magic's itself into existence to be printed? There is imagination, leading to research, history, and craft involved in making some to print.

I'd argue possibly more so than with many scratch-builds as there's an expectation for greater accuracy.

1 hour ago, BlueLightning said:

The words of someone that has never tried to make a 3D model

It does save time, after the first few attempts. Alright so you're already vastly better at it than I ever was, but when I was still doing it I found that with my limited scratch-building ability it was quicker and more painless to do the CAD. I have a wagon to draw up currently, and may do more again some day.

1 hour ago, BlueLightning said:

and how did it get "90% done"? It's had a lot of work go into it to get it there, in fact I have never put as many hours into a scratch built wagon as I have into the wagon I am currently making for 3D printing.

I agree to an extent, but once again you have a scratch-building ability that some of us (me!) lack so in my case I'd argue scratch-building a wagon to an acceptable standard would still take more time and effort for me than for me to do some CAD and get it printed.

 

For now, however, I'm enjoying RTR-Bashing.

9 hours ago, 33C said:

 

 

[john new]

Perhaps better not to start something like the accuracy of 4mm track gauge wars. For my four-pennies worth on a current project I have designed overlays in a graphics package to print off and use on an old PECO Wonderful Wagon chassis found in my scrap box. This is 2D prep-work using modern IT equipment to replicate late 1950s modelling.

 

I did not draw up the basic wagon drawing as I found a copy of what I wanted on line in black and white. Obviously I did not make the chassis but it is needing some minor mods to fit a tension lock in place of the original PECO knuckle type.

 

I have modified the original drawing by removing the white to give it a transparent background (so that in the graphics I can use overlays) and scaled it to be 4mm. I concur that arguably this is design work not modelling, but I am now in the position of having my own bespoke kit, in the same way in the 1970s we could buy the Collett card sheet wagon side kits. 

 

I contend the above is part of the modelling process and surely DIY design and 3D printing is just a modernised version of exactly the same thing.  I have still not worked out exactly how to retro-fit the tension lock to the PECO chassis as it needs either some research into the best adhesive to glue on a spacer block or some fiddly work to add a screw in mount. Below is a reduced size view of the final kit - my intention is that first up will be a plain card box, then it will be layered up to give some visible relief to the overlay components with each plank added as a separate paper wrap and then the strapping added as the last layer. Laser printed to avoid any ink runs.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by john new

[Ravenser]

Surely the biggest advantage of 3D is the capability for repeat production?

 

If you need 1, then 3D may well be a much longer and more laborious process than scratchbuilding . But if you need 2 or 3 , then the extra models are likely to require quite modest additional effort as 3D

 

I think comments about 3D being easy are coming from the perspective of someone who would only ever buy a print  from Shapeways of something that someone else had developed, not from the perspective of the 3D designer

 

The difference is that few people attempt their own etch designs, or resin masters. A lot more people are likely to attempt a 3D print design

[Adam FW]

Well someone's opened a can of worms here with whether or not 3D printing is modelling so I'll throw some more fuel on the fire as someone who designs models from scratch for 3D printing. I'm not normally one for definitive YES or NO statements but here we go regardless, if you don't agree that's fine, it's purely my opinion:

 

Is 3D printing modelling? - NO

-the printer does the heavy lifting here, it would be like claiming your CD player is creating music, the skill comes in the creation of the model for 3D printing just like with music the skill is with writing, performing and recording it, and not with just hitting play. However maintaining a printer, setting it up for good prints and processing those prints does take skill and effort and the importance of that shouldn't be understated

 

Is creating a CAD model for 3D printing modelling? - YES

-this is where the real work of creating a 3D print is done. I work off drawings, photographs and measurements of both the item I want to model but also the components I want to include be that an RTR chassis, Alan Gibson wheels, gearsets, motors, whatever. This process can take an age, for the Railway Mania Portbury kit it took over 2 months from the first agreement to go for it, to being at a point that me and @Corbs were happy to show anything off and I used to have a drawer full of early prints that had either failed or been superseded by better designs. It is very rare that my first attempt is 100% right, and here is the key difference between 3D printing and more traditional methods, if I make a mistake I can go back to the CAD model, modify it and print a new part. With more traditional methods I'd have to fix what I'd already done or start again. This also leads to another big benefit is that once I have got a model printing well, I can make numerous copies

 

Is building a 3D printed model, modeling? - YES

-it's most akin to kit building but a 3D printed part needs finishing, be that sanding, painting, detailing or assembling. I try to make my kits as easy to build as possible but you also come across some on Shapeways and elsewhere which are more like an aid to scratch building where you get a basic body shape but you need to design a chassis, create a drivetrain and add rivets, pipework and other details etc, and that's a lot of work

 

Can a 3D print be considered a 'bash'? - YES

-just like an RTR body or a kit the 3D printed parts can be modified to suit, corbs has a couple of examples where he's cobbled together some nice models from random test prints I sent him. Alternatively as with my Manning Wardle and Kitson Pannier tanks, the RTR chassis has been cut up to better suit my needs. I've even bashed locos together on CAD, my Florence model if you peel the layers back far enough is based on my Bellerophon model, they use the same electrotren chassis so it made complete sense to base one off the other

 

Is it modelling if I just print someone else's design? - IT DEPENDS

-if you've got the CAD files from another modeler and you're just printing them, I see that as printing not modelling, but if you've modified them for a new purpose or to improve them then to me you've added something and that's modelling in my opinion regardless of whether it's virtual or not.

 

Is 3D printing the future of modelling? - MAYBE

-currently 3D printing can't do everything, there's a limit of how big or small I can make something and the current resin prints will not be as strong as a solid whitemetal lump or be as thin as brass sheet. But I think it is the future of affordable small volume production and the printers are only getting better. Hero Forge are showing off their full colour 3D printing of miniature figures which looks amazing even if the colours are a little muted and I'm sure we'll be seeing fully lined loco's being made in a similar way soon.

 

That being said there will always be a place for taking a razer saw and some plastikard to a cheap second hand model to make it your own and the pugbash thread should continue to celebrate any modelling that in someway involves an RTR loco, I'm personally looking forward to someone making a paper-mache loco on a smokey joe chassis, I haven't come across one of those in the thread yet.

 

WHAT IS MODELLING? - THAT'S THE REAL QUESTION

Edited December 28, 2020 by Adam FW

[Northmoor]

Some really interesting insight on this thread chaps, but I suggest that anyone posting please steer clear of telling other people that what they are doing ISN'T modelling?

RMWeb is a home for like-minded people, including those like me who don't really get the opportunity to do much modelling.  Let's not turn it into one of those peculiar loves of the British, "The Club", which we like because we get to decide who to exclude from it.