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Legomanbiffo earth movers fitting questions


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Steve

 

My question is more would a custom made EM2 speaker designed to fit within a modern diesel be an option? I have no idea as to the origins of the EM range and guess that they are designed for a different purpose than fitting into models. My point is that with a custom design (and even if it cost more), the overall cost might fall because it would mean less work required by the likes of yourself to fit them. It would also be a better solution for the model because and notwithstanding your skills, it must be better to minimise modification of factory built models.

 

Perhaps a follow up question is anyone aware of dialogue taking place with model manufacturers about them changing the loco design so that larger speakers can be used? Given that model designs already exist, I guess manufacturers will struggle to see any economic benefit of changing designs. However if they are not asked then they are unlikely to do anything. 

 

regards Rob[/quote Hello Rob,

 

I am aware of dialogue taking place with manufacturers, however response has been either can't be bothered, the provision is perfectly adequate or simply ignored. However I'm not complaining too loudly as part of my income, putting food on the table is getting more out of sounds!

 

As far as the work affecting models is concerned, the Bachmann models benefit from superior running due to the cardan shafts being now parallel instead of cranked at angles. The absolute smooth silence of the mechanisms is noticed by people as much as the improvement to the sounds.

 

In the end it comes down to choices. Some people want one thing and some people want another. I can't please everyone and to be honest there aren't enough hours in the day. However if a certain few are happy to join us on our little trip into sound then they are more than welcome.

 

If I stopped enjoying this jobby I would hang up my coat tomorrow.

 

Many thanks for your continued interest in our little projects,

 

Kind Regards,

 

Steve,

 

A member of the misfits and reprabatic (may not be a word!) sound team,

 

Charlie, Bif and Steve.

We think "adequate is a rather crappy word.
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Hi Steve

 

         you quoted  "As far as the work affecting models is concerned, the Bachmann models benefit from superior running due to the cardan shafts being now parallel instead of cranked at angles. The absolute smooth silence of the mechanisms is noticed by people as much as the improvement to the sounds."

 

On a Bachmann 37 chassis, assume removing the chassis motor mounting to get an EM2 fitted,  will result in the motor then being mounted directly on the tank weights ?  is this correct.........

 

AFAIK the EM2 is rated at 1watt/4ohms ?  - is it recommended or necessary to fit a second speaker wired in series, as is required with the EM1 it being only (1/2Watt/4ohm) 

 

Keep up the good work..........

 

Regards

Ken

 

Edit: Charlie's on the ball............... :jester: my EM2's arrived this morning.........................

Edited by tractor_37260
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Hi Steve

 

         you quoted  "As far as the work affecting models is concerned, the Bachmann models benefit from superior running due to the cardan shafts being now parallel instead of cranked at angles. The absolute smooth silence of the mechanisms is noticed by people as much as the improvement to the sounds."

 

On a Bachmann 37 chassis, assume removing the chassis motor mounting to get an EM2 fitted,  will result in the motor then being mounted directly on the tank weights ?  is this correct.........

 

AFAIK the EM2 is rated at 1watt/4ohms ?  - is it recommended or necessary to fit a second speaker wired in series, as is required with the EM1 it being only (1/2Watt/4ohm) 

 

Keep up the good work..........

 

Regards

Ken

 

Edit: Charlie's on the ball............... :jester: my EM2's arrived this morning.........................

Mine too.

 

Where's the hack saw.?

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Hi Steve

 

         you quoted  "As far as the work affecting models is concerned, the Bachmann models benefit from superior running due to the cardan shafts being now parallel instead of cranked at angles. The absolute smooth silence of the mechanisms is noticed by people as much as the improvement to the sounds."

 

On a Bachmann 37 chassis, assume removing the chassis motor mounting to get an EM2 fitted,  will result in the motor then being mounted directly on the tank weights ?  is this correct.........

 

AFAIK the EM2 is rated at 1watt/4ohms ?  - is it recommended or necessary to fit a second speaker wired in series, as is required with the EM1 it being only (1/2Watt/4ohm) 

 

Keep up the good work..........

 

Regards

Ken

 

Edit: Charlie's on the ball............... :jester: my EM2's arrived this morning.........................

Hello Ken,

 

Yes place the motor directly on top of the weight in the fuel tank. I use 3M VHB tape (very high bond) and sand a rough surface on both the weight and motor for a good keying surface. On some Bachmann models you have to cut out sections of the plastic moulded underframe to accomodate the bottom of the flywheels (Peaks and 25's particularly. You don't need a second speaker to work with the EM2, it behaves itself well enough on it's own. Unless of course you are attampting the Atomic Option Deltic with two EM2's and two chips. We aren't crackers really honest!!

 

Also, now knowing what I know now! A little more than you can fit on a postage stamp, even if I wasn't fitting EM2 speakers on my own models I would still make the alterations to the cardan shafts. It makes even my 15 year old Deltic whiuch has been to the moon and back, many exhibitions and has received 12 sound installations run like a £400 continental model with not an element of noise from it's mechanisms.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve.

Edited by Steve Brammer
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To answer some of the points raised;

 

The EM2 doesn't need a series connected speaker, its power handling is sufficient for a v4. We've run them full volume on the stand for months now and had no problems. The EM1 needs a second 4 ohm speaker in series and my Scotrail shove duff sounds lovely with an EM1 in the tanks and a 20x40 in the roof recess. Overall loudness of that combination is on a par with an EM2 but the bass response is less, as you might expect (we're talking relative here; the former is still streets ahead of your average factory fitted sound).

 

For your average manufacturer of miniature loudspeakers, the kind of quantities we are collectively likely to order (or have commissioned) just 'isn't worth them getting out of bed for' when compared with the numbers sold for TV's, radios, mp3 players etc. It would be far more cost effective to design locos to fit the standard speakers available. To that end we have talked to all the big players and had mixed responses, as outlined by Steve above. The other issue is model lead times. The design process for a recent loco release from one of the big players began many months ago when the bass reflex speaker was considered state of the art. If it was designed today it might be designed to accept an EM2.

 

Rest assured we're doing all we can to get the manufacturers to take sound more seriously and design it in from the outset. In the meantime we will continue to push the envelope of what's possible with existing models and deliver it to you at a price compatible with the quality of the results.

 

Bif

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To answer some of the points raised;

 

The EM2 doesn't need a series connected speaker, its power handling is sufficient for a v4. We've run them full volume on the stand for months now and had no problems. The EM1 needs a second 4 ohm speaker in series and my Scotrail shove duff sounds lovely with an EM1 in the tanks and a 20x40 in the roof recess. Overall loudness of that combination is on a par with an EM2 but the bass response is less, as you might expect (we're talking relative here; the former is still streets ahead of your average factory fitted sound).

 

For your average manufacturer of miniature loudspeakers, the kind of quantities we are collectively likely to order (or have commissioned) just 'isn't worth them getting out of bed for' when compared with the numbers sold for TV's, radios, mp3 players etc. It would be far more cost effective to design locos to fit the standard speakers available. To that end we have talked to all the big players and had mixed responses, as outlined by Steve above. The other issue is model lead times. The design process for a recent loco release from one of the big players began many months ago when the bass reflex speaker was considered state of the art. If it was designed today it might be designed to accept an EM2.

 

Rest assured we're doing all we can to get the manufacturers to take sound more seriously and design it in from the outset. In the meantime we will continue to push the envelope of what's possible with existing models and deliver it to you at a price compatible with the quality of the results.

 

Bif

 

Hi Bif

          Noticed the EM2 has a 2pin socket, shame they didn't come with a plug/leads ?  - however the plug of the EM1 leads appears to fit - sorted -  although I'd rather use soldered connections, but looks a bit tricky to do that on the EM2.

 

Some serious metal gonna need to be removed on the 37 chassis to fit this EM2 .......... ! with not a lot of space left to mount a decoder/connection board etc..............

 

However - I do like a challenge............ :yes:

 

Regards

Ken

Edited by tractor_37260
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Steve, Charlie

 

 

Thanks for the clarification, I am now clear on the situation and how things have got to where they are.

 

I look forward to hearing the EM2's at Bristol although based on what people are saying on here it looks like I need to start saving! 

 

regards Rob

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To answer some of the points raised;

 

The EM2 doesn't need a series connected speaker, its power handling is sufficient for a v4. We've run them full volume on the stand for months now and had no problems. The EM1 needs a second 4 ohm speaker in series and my Scotrail shove duff sounds lovely with an EM1 in the tanks and a 20x40 in the roof recess. Overall loudness of that combination is on a par with an EM2 but the bass response is less, as you might expect (we're talking relative here; the former is still streets ahead of your average factory fitted sound).

 

For your average manufacturer of miniature loudspeakers, the kind of quantities we are collectively likely to order (or have commissioned) just 'isn't worth them getting out of bed for' when compared with the numbers sold for TV's, radios, mp3 players etc. It would be far more cost effective to design locos to fit the standard speakers available. To that end we have talked to all the big players and had mixed responses, as outlined by Steve above. The other issue is model lead times. The design process for a recent loco release from one of the big players began many months ago when the bass reflex speaker was considered state of the art. If it was designed today it might be designed to accept an EM2.

 

Rest assured we're doing all we can to get the manufacturers to take sound more seriously and design it in from the outset. In the meantime we will continue to push the envelope of what's possible with existing models and deliver it to you at a price compatible with the quality of the results.

 

Bif

 

Wouldn't it be a terribly boring world or hobby even if everything were nigh on perfect ?

It seems to be human nature to improve on what we already have.

Model railways are no different

Do we really want absolutely perfect models that we would just plonk on the Oh so perfect track running through ready to run scenery ?

Its not what railway modelling is about .

I personally get a lot of enjoyment taking a loco apart in the quest to get better sound , I don't always succeed but hey !  nothing ventured nothing gained .

So keep it up Bif /Steve , you're doing a great job !

Besides, it keeps me out of mischief on those long winter evenings !

Edited by Albie the plumber
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Hi Bif

Noticed the EM2 has a 2pin socket, shame they didn't come with a plug/leads ? - however the plug of the EM1 leads appears to fit - sorted - although I'd rather use soldered connections, but looks a bit tricky to do that on the EM2.

 

Some serious metal gonna need to be removed on the 37 chassis to fit this EM2 .......... ! with not a lot of space left to mount a decoder/connection board etc..............

 

However - I do like a challenge............ :yes:

 

Regards

Ken

 

Hi Bif

Noticed the EM2 has a 2pin socket, shame they didn't come with a plug/leads ? - however the plug of the EM1 leads appears to fit - sorted - although I'd rather use soldered connections, but looks a bit tricky to do that on the EM2.

 

Some serious metal gonna need to be removed on the 37 chassis to fit this EM2 .......... ! with not a lot of space left to mount a decoder/connection board etc..............

 

However - I do like a challenge............ :yes:

 

Regards

Ken

 

Hi Bif

Noticed the EM2 has a 2pin socket, shame they didn't come with a plug/leads ? - however the plug of the EM1 leads appears to fit - sorted - although I'd rather use soldered connections, but looks a bit tricky to do that on the EM2.

 

Some serious metal gonna need to be removed on the 37 chassis to fit this EM2 .......... ! with not a lot of space left to mount a decoder/connection board etc..............

 

However - I do like a challenge............ :yes:

 

Regards

Ken

 

Hi Bif

Noticed the EM2 has a 2pin socket, shame they didn't come with a plug/leads ? - however the plug of the EM1 leads appears to fit - sorted - although I'd rather use soldered connections, but looks a bit tricky to do that on the EM2.

 

Some serious metal gonna need to be removed on the 37 chassis to fit this EM2 .......... ! with not a lot of space left to mount a decoder/connection board etc..............

 

However - I do like a challenge............ :yes:

 

Regards

Ken

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Sorry gents my phone appears to be having a hissy fit! Please accept my apologise.

 

As far as connectors are concerned for EM1 and EM2 speakers. The EM1 needs a JST1.25 female connector and the EM2 requires a JST1.25 male connector. You can get these from eBay and come in bundles of 20 of each. How convenient!

 

Cheers,

 

Steve.

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I'm really pleased with the EM2s - they really make the 37s sound (almost) real. 

 

Bif / Steve / Charlie - Have you asked the speaker company if they could reshape the enclosure yet? I'm still scratching my head on how to get the EM2s in to the other stuff I've got! It's getting addictive  :laugh:

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I'm really pleased with the EM2s - they really make the 37s sound (almost) real. 

 

Bif / Steve / Charlie - Have you asked the speaker company if they could reshape the enclosure yet? I'm still scratching my head on how to get the EM2s in to the other stuff I've got! It's getting addictive  :laugh:

 

Yes but we don't want 20,000 !!!

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Steve

 

         you quoted  "As far as the work affecting models is concerned, the Bachmann models benefit from superior running due to the cardan shafts being now parallel instead of cranked at angles. The absolute smooth silence of the mechanisms is noticed by people as much as the improvement to the sounds."

 

On a Bachmann 37 chassis, assume removing the chassis motor mounting to get an EM2 fitted,  will result in the motor then being mounted directly on the tank weights ?  is this correct.........

 

AFAIK the EM2 is rated at 1watt/4ohms ?  - is it recommended or necessary to fit a second speaker wired in series, as is required with the EM1 it being only (1/2Watt/4ohm) 

 

Keep up the good work..........

 

Regards

Ken

 

Edit: Charlie's on the ball............... :jester: my EM2's arrived this morning.........................

Hello Ken,

 

You are perfectly correct. The EM2 sits directly on top of the ballast weight in the tanks. I sand the bottom of the motor and the top of the weight to give a good keying surface then bond the motor directly with 3M VHB tape (Very High Bond). The motor is then both cushioned and held secure, result!!

 

The EM2 requires no additional speakers to accomodate it believe me, it does a great job on it's own!

 

Note to self, must stop using so many exclamation marks!! oops!

 

Cheers,

 

Steve.

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Hello Ken,

 

You are perfectly correct. The EM2 sits directly on top of the ballast weight in the tanks. I sand the bottom of the motor and the top of the weight to give a good keying surface then bond the motor directly with 3M VHB tape (Very High Bond). The motor is then both cushioned and held secure, result!!

 

The EM2 requires no additional speakers to accomodate it believe me, it does a great job on it's own!

 

Note to self, must stop using so many exclamation marks!! oops!

 

Cheers,

 

Steve.

 

Hi Steve

 

Listened to Bifs new wensleydale 37 sounds at the Bristol show today . I wasn't disappointed !

 

I duly bought an 8 pin V4 with an EM2  to boot .

With EM2 in one hand and a spare chassis block in the other , I enquired how deep the speaker should sit within said chassis .

He was unable to answer with any certainty saying it may be a good idea to speak to your good self .

 

Any advice with regard to the above would be greatly appreciated

 

Regards

 

Alberto 

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Well since I started the topic off I've found it most interesting having never undertaken a big speaker fit and the folk on this forum have not let me down with answers and pictures so having brought a lot of the em2 speakers at York I've fitted me first one to one of my deltic's I've gone down the route of fitting it in the belly tanks and using a Paul Chetter sound file and boy does it should good so much so I've only got a small tmd layout that I'm building and run it on there can't wait till later in get to build my bigger loop layout then it can really stretch its legs.

Any way few pictures below of the deltic knowing what I know now I'd have milled the body the Steve B way but lesson learned

So on the bench now is one of my class 37's in bits and thank goodness for a myford lathe and a vertical slide let the metal removal begin pictures of that will follow.

post-28388-0-83876500-1493708140_thumb.jpeg

post-28388-0-62332100-1493708161_thumb.jpeg

post-28388-0-64342600-1493708179_thumb.jpeg

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Fitted one in a Hornby 8F tender with Locomans project over the weekend - wow!

 

May have to look at 'dampening' the speaker mounting as there is some vibration at full volume, its the model rather than the speaker. On the first test run the depth of the 8F bark on full throttle shook the cab steps and one of the lubricators off! :)

 

Am wondering now if I can get an EM2 into a Q6 tender......

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Fitted one in a Hornby 8F tender with Locomans project over the weekend - wow!

 

May have to look at 'dampening' the speaker mounting as there is some vibration at full volume, its the model rather than the speaker. On the first test run the depth of the 8F bark on full throttle shook the cab steps and one of the lubricators off! :)

 

Am wondering now if I can get an EM2 into a Q6 tender......

 

Probably the best speakers you can get for Low Bass.  

 

The speakers make 'The Earth Move' thus everything that can rattle, will rattle including the wheels!!!   Charlie

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  • 1 month later...

Just finished fitting lights/and sound to a Hornby/Lima 31 with Bif's sounds and, with all that space inside , you would be mad

 

not to fit an EM2 speaker . No milling required !

 

As for the sounds ? awesome !  The EM2 really brings those sounds out

 

Engine sounds apart , the horns and even the door slam sound as if you are there next to it .

 

You could fit a second EM2  within that body shell but it might shake the laserglaze out ! :yes: 

Edited by Albie the plumber
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Just finished fitting lights/and sound to a Hornby/Lima 31 with Bif's sounds and, with all that space inside , you would be mad

 

not to fit an EM2 speaker . No milling required !

 

As for the sounds ? awesome !  The EM2 really brings those sounds out

 

Engine sounds apart , the horns and even the door slam sound as if you are there next to it .

 

You could fit a second EM2  within that body shell but it might shake the laserglaze out ! :yes:

Any chance that you might share some images of the installation? I have a couple of 31's that might benefit from the treatment (or should I say Brush type 2 for my period)

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Any chance that you might share some images of the installation? I have a couple of 31's that might benefit from the treatment (or should I say Brush type 2 for my period)

Hi RBAGE

 

I would love to do so but I haven't a clue how to send the pics , where are the kids when you need them ?

 

The sound element is quite simple .

 

The EM2 I is placed above the dummy bogie , at one end, I stick the cab bulkhead (fitted to the more expensive models and bought off ebay )

 

 The other end sits on the central metal weight formed of several metal plates . 3 or 4 of these plates are shortened to create a step onto which 

 

the speaker ( with tabs cut away ) sits .  I Stick the speaker down onto double sided  sticky pads  , the bulkhead end is stuck to the chassis floor .

 

Doing the above minimises the possibility of vibration that this speaker can create - its that powerful !

 

There should be enough space beneath the speaker to allow the 8 pin plug to be pressed in and I should have said that this should be done before

 

sticking the speaker down !

 

Wires leaving the 8 pin plug should avoid contact with the speaker as they will buzz if they do so 

 

Fitting an etched fan grille will allow the sound out . Removal of the central glazing will also be necessary . 

 

Although optional, fitting of lights and flush glazing is recommended  however it does add a lot more time and may well drive you mad ! :help: 

Hope this helps

 

Albie

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  • 1 month later...

OK , so now that the baby brush has had the EM2 treatment , I'm now looking at the class 37 chassis block with a view to putting an EM2 into that .

 

First thing that becomes immediately obvious is that if you place the EM into the centre of the block and fit it so that it would be flush with the top

 

of the block , then it would become 2 halves of a chassis block as there would be virtually nothing left to hold it together !

 

Is that the way people brave enough to have a go are doing this ?

 

Or does the EM get shifted towards the fan area ?

 

Any advice would be most welcome 

 

Thanks in advance

 

Albie

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