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Little Muddle


KNP
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10 hours ago, KNP said:

Must decide what to load there wagons with, if at all.

Don't want coal in everyone, think I will put some pit props in the NE ones, one of the small one to have some acid bottles (carboys) with straw around them, perhaps even one with straw bales.

I could always cover one with a tarpaulin and keep you guessing..

 

Unlikely to be straw bales in the '30s At that time it was mostly bunched (it then looked very much like the sheaves before they went into the thresher) from the threshing machine or loose. Some of the larger threshing contractors used a baler but the bales were larger than the small bales we get these days but obviously not as big as today's big bales! If that makes sense and I'm sure you wanted to know that! :rolleyes:  

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Surely, if we are to avoid a coals to Newcastle situation, then the pit props must be outbound and the coal

inbound.

 

Of couse if Muddle is in the Somerset or Bristol coalfield areas, then the opposite would apply.

 

Either of which would prompt the question, should the pit props be carried in the empty coal

wagons? Of course I realise that in the frest of dean both Pit Props and Coal could be outwards traffic.

And certainly towards the end coal was also inwards!

 

Are you all confused - I am!

 

All the best

TONY

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So far as South Wales in the 50s, 60s, and 70s was concerned, props were imported through Cardiff or Swansea ready cut to length from Western France (the afforested Bordeaux region), Belgium, Scandinavia, and Russia.  They then had to be seasoned for a period before they were ready for use, and this took place at large depots at Marshfield, between Cardiff and Newport on the SWML, and Lletty Brongu near Maesteg.  They worked from the ports to the depots in 5-plank opens, stacked vertically. 

 

Don’t know much about Lletty Brongu, but at Marshfield they were stacked across the rails of the depot’s sidings for seasoning, and sent to the collieries when they were ready for use, again in 5-plankers with the return leg of the trip from the docks, a 94xx turn until 08s took over in’65. 

 

From there they were transferred and usually sent to the colliery with the empty coal wagons, empty 5 planters being returned with loaded coal workings if traffic allowed, or a loco sent to collect them.

 

AFAIK the Somerset coalfield worked on a similar basis, props coming through Bristol or Avonmouth docks.  Not sure how pits on the S & DJ got theirs, probably from Avonmouth via Mangotsfield.    

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From one end to the other, of course, Colin.  

 

6 feet I think; they were trimmed to size at the pits, often in situ underground.  They were about 9” thick.  I’m told there were 2 sorts of miners, those that liked wooden props and those that liked steel.  Wood gave a bit of a creaking noise which gave you a few seconds if something bad was about to happen, and steel just gave in without warning, which was better if you preferred, well, not to know...

 

Long enough to stick up about 18” above the side of the wagon. 

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Before nationalisation of the pits, individual pits or at least the pit owners purchased the props and transported them to the pits where seasoning occurred above ground. This was usually effected in returning empties to avoid hiring wagons from the railway companies.

 

I generally assumed that the props were of a uniform size and that normal wooden bodied wagons were used, but images of pits being imported through Hartlepol for the Durham coal field show them of varying sizes, loaded in a variety of configurations and even loaded into hopper wagons - anything to avoid paying those pesky railway companies.

 

image.png.0f4997f022c6d8daf500db7ba0b5195b.png

 

image.png.6288c97485b957003f605c2816b835a2.png

 

Images from Hartlepool Then and Now http://www.hhtandn.org/relatedimages/8821/unloading-pit-props

Provided for personal research use.

 

Best wishes

Chris

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Yep some sort of load is essential, those panniers have been getting away with lazing about for far too long. It's no wonder they were hanging around in gangs and it's no wonder that the chap on the platform with the cap was looking so serious. Such things weren't allowed in his day, he can tell you, and probably will if you don't escape quickly.  :nono:

 

On the subject of loads for the wagons, when in a complete quandary I usually apply a tarpaulin, they can effectively hide a multitude of indecision.

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A pit prop depot could make a good inspiration for a layout; shunting engine and self propelled steam cranes, and the actual usable track plan constantly changing as props are cleared from sidings and stacked on top of other sidings.  The stacks were pretty high and the Canton men who worked the Marshfield pilot reckoned that one of the challenges of the job on this very large site was remembering where you were when all you could see from the footplate was towering wooden ravines each side of you that changed position on a daily basis.  There were few landmarks except a water tower in the centre of the site, and the props were move around to different areas according to the stage of seasoning they had reached, so the appearance was of apparently pointless shunting, loading wagons in one siding and then unloading the same wagons in another one...

 

The manager was apparently a somewhat ferocious looking military type called the Major or the Colonel or something, actually a very friendly and approachable individual whose twin passions were railway locomotives and shooting game; he habitually carried a .303 rifle with him.  The result was that he spent quite some time on the footplate of the 94xx, and later the 08, and would bring beer and pies for the crew's lunch and, often, a brace of pheasants or a couple of rabbits whose day he'd ruined with the .303.  The Marshfield pilot was hard work but a popular job...

 

The outline of the site, now an industrial estate adjoining the Freightliner depot, can be traced on the modern OS map; the ghost of the triangular fan of sidings can be clearly seen, and I think the water tower is still there.   The depot was destroyed in a spectacular fire which closed the SWML after the heat  bucked the relief lines in the 70s.

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That Hamilton Collieries wagon is a long way from home!

Having thought a lot about freight movements for my own various layouts it seems reasonable for a town like Little Muddle to be a consumer of most goods and producer of not very much unless there is a specific regional or local industry. Most coal wagons would carry house coal inwards and go out empty ('house coal' includes coal for local industries that don't have their own private siding). Consumables for agriculture like machinery parts could be inbound with items like a traction engine maybe going back and forth if the machine required extensive repairs or maintenance that wasn't available from an industry in the town.

Pit props in the UK were very frequently Scandinavian imports and were stored and loaded by agents or factors from vast stacking grounds at the docks so they would be a highly unlikely outgoing load from a town like LM. Likewise no import of props either as they went direct to the colliery.

After coal, most cargoes in opens were sheeted so yes, having sheets is a good way to explain away almost anything. The problem is representing the wagon that the sheeted load arrived in being sent away empty. If that doesn't bother you them just have a sheeted open. If it does you could have two identical wagons, one loaded and sheeted and one empty.

Unsheeted items might be anonymous crates or barrels without specifying the contents. There is an art to representing barrels in opens.
 

 

Crushed limestone for use as roadstone was a thing in the 20s and 30s as local dirt roads were surfaced by councils. That would be carried loose in unsheeted opens and gives you an excuse to get the dust-toned weathering powders out.

Slates? Bricks? Dressed stone - maybe there is an architectural or monumental mason in the town?

Vans are a great cheat for the railway modeller as they look the same loaded and empty and they can carry whatever you like, within reason.

Edited by Martin S-C
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Incoming loads for a rural BLT are usually much less than the outgoing agricultural traffic that is the village's raison d'etre, and inbound traffic in opens would mostly be for the mileage siding.  One tends to think of occasional big items like farm machinery on 1 or 3 plankers and mobile steam engines on lowfits, but the more daily traffic is more likely small crates (we've had trouble with big ones), oil drums, sacks, and possibly builder's materials such as gravel or sand, or planks, in 5-plankers.  If there is a small factory or workshop in the village not big enough for it's own siding or too far from the railway for one, maybe this could generate such general merchandise inward traffic.  Animal feed in bales or sacks, fertiliser, and possibly liquid chemicals in carboys as well; those who know more about farming at your period will be better able to comment.

 

Re inward traffic to collieries, as well as the pit props there may be the odd open with drums of something or other, or van with some sort of mining equipment to break the monotony.  Some collieries took loaded wagons of coal from other pits in for land sale if their own product was not suitable for domestic use.  The off stage colliery at Cwmdimbath has a major building project in progress; the NCB promised pit head baths and a canteen in 1947, and this is the early 50s so they are delivering.  As well as the aggregates and timber, there are bricks, pipes, and something in a long wooden Peco crate that needs a bogie bolster, and the completion of this project will mean the end of the miner's workman's working, so it is unlikely to ever be completed; Rule 1 will ensure this!

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2 hours ago, KNP said:

Thought I would have a go at a video just to prove things do move on the layout and not just with my hand....!

 

Pannier 8752 with her recently acquired wagons serenely moves towards her destination

 

https://youtu.be/UUE8ijTeTtQ

Excellent Video Kevin, but I was waiting for YOU to go Chuff Chuff Chuff mate.:good:

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2 hours ago, KNP said:

Thought I would have a go at a video just to prove things do move on the layout and not just with my hand....!

 

This is NOT a criticism, far from it. I prefer the stills, because there is much more left to the imagination. I can add my own little stories to the ones you so ably produce, and imagine the movement in there. As I said, this is NOT a criticism. It's a personal view, and I'm entitled to it, so there!

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9 minutes ago, Mick Bonwick said:

 

This is NOT a criticism, far from it. I prefer the stills, because there is much more left to the imagination. I can add my own little stories to the ones you so ably produce, and imagine the movement in there. As I said, this is NOT a criticism. It's a personal view, and I'm entitled to it, so there!

None taken.

I just fancied having a go as I downloaded a free video editing suite that turned out to be free and not one that is free up until the time you try to save/export.

My preference is stills and will remain so, so fear not intrepid weatherer, and rest easy all you die hards out there that are still into stills, stills will still be used as the main picture thread on this thread.....!

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7 minutes ago, KNP said:

After the video I thought I better commission Ken Dobetter Photography to take some pictures of 8752.

So, with the Station Masters approval, Ken visited Little Muddle and along with his assistants Mary Mee and Peter Outt they have arranged these for you.

Very nice indeed Kevin.

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The videos are excellent, best enjoyed without sound so the mechanism of the locomotive isn’t heard. I wonder if your clever tripod would allow a little lateral movement of the camera which would let us enjoy your scenery in 3D?

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35 minutes ago, Limpley Stoker said:

The videos are excellent, best enjoyed without sound so the mechanism of the locomotive isn’t heard. I wonder if your clever tripod would allow a little lateral movement of the camera which would let us enjoy your scenery in 3D?

Thanks

I agree about the sound, should have removed it when editing - live and learn

My tripod doesn’t have a pan head as it is mainly for stills photography..did try but it wasn’t smooth and looked awful.

 

I haven’t had any lateral movement today!!!!

 

Edited by KNP
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Kevin

 

please forgive me if you've already covered this,  your liveries are pre-1934 shirt button, but your headlamps are white, which I think was implemented in 1936. 

 

I had to paint mine red too...

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/headcodes.htm

 

 

keep up the good work, it's always a pleasure to drop in to Little Muddle...

atb

Simon

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1 hour ago, Simond said:

Kevin

 

please forgive me if you've already covered this,  your liveries are pre-1934 shirt button, but your headlamps are white, which I think was implemented in 1936. 

 

I had to paint mine red too...

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/headcodes.htm

 

 

keep up the good work, it's always a pleasure to drop in to Little Muddle...

atb

Simon

 

Thanks for this but my information says that the GWR shirt button was implemented in 1934 and phased out in 1942.

 

Regards

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As referred to earlier here is the fifth video I shot yesterday, the other four where edited into one sequence but not this one.

 

This was shot by the Squadron Leader from his friends observation balloon that he had tethered to the warehouse.

 

https://youtu.be/hBPlus-yfyY

 

That's it for now on this video malarkey but the normal type of pictures.....!

 

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5 hours ago, KNP said:

 

Thanks for this but my information says that the GWR shirt button was implemented in 1934 and phased out in 1942.

 

Regards

 

Hi Kevin,

 

i think we’re in agreement - certainly about the shirtbutton intro - and perhaps I’m up the wrong tree, but in which year is the layout set?

 

atb

Simon

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