DJM N gauge Crowdfunded King Class Steam Loco has started

[JSpencer]

You know that to 100% certainty?

Only from what Dave said here in post 333 of the class 74 thread: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/103598-oo-gauge-class-74-electro-diesel-locomotive/page-14

 

It would have been pointless to lie vis-a-vis the context of the question.

[Covkid]

I think if the factory produced a fair model at a price which suited purchasers they'd sell them, I don't think that people give a toss about where things come from or any legalities, so long as it's cheap enough. If Joe Public were that bothered about anything, they'd be a boycott of all the companies that don't pay tax such as Starbucks, Amazon, Google etc

 

(Snip)

 

The dispute over ownership is in another country and that country places its own law above that of another country. To be fair to China the order and work were carried out in a Chinese factory, payments were made to the factory and the dispute was with the factory, So why would the Chinese defer to a decision over ownership in a foreign land. There is nothing to stop them producing a item and selling it from China in the same way that they produce and sell through the internet.

 

 

Whilst issues in the past have concerned other tooling, I would say they could have a bearing on current production.  All business relies on good faith, and whilst there is a loyal customer base willing to put their money down for future projects, I do think that DJM has made the wrong decision about not giving regular updates on forums etc so they reach a much wider audience. Without the numbers the project will stall.

 

Disagree with your first paragraph in relation to our hobby, in that it is a specialist commodity rather than a general shelf item.  Yes, maybe consumers would purchase an item if it were considered cheap enough and of good enough quality. But toy trains is a hobby and people shelling from their hobby purse will surely want to buy with trust and confidence ? So at least some of "Joe Public" will be considering a quality product overiding cheapness.  If that wasn't the case then Dyson would not be selling hairdryers for nearly three hundred quid !!!  

 

The stuff about Chinese factories making our model trains is interesting, and we Brits do hear it mentioned from time to time, but we only have "our side" of the story, and I guess the "other side", being a bit of a vacuum, can allow speculation to become fact. Whilst I don't outright disagree simply because I don't know the facts, I also take anything with a pinch of salt, and given DJ's apparent business acumen with tax and websites, I just wonder.

 

Although other model producers have had products significantly delayed by factory moves / shutdowns / relocation / CNY etc they don't seem to have had issues with alleged tool ownership / legalities etc.  

[Chris M]

Disagree with your first paragraph in relation to our hobby, in that it is a specialist commodity rather than a general shelf item.  Yes, maybe consumers would purchase an item if it were considered cheap enough and of good enough quality. But toy trains is a hobby and people shelling from their hobby purse will surely want to buy with trust and confidence ? So at least some of "Joe Public" will be considering a quality product overiding cheapness.  If that wasn't the case then Dyson would not be selling hairdryers for nearly three hundred quid !!!  

 

The stuff about Chinese factories making our model trains is interesting, and we Brits do hear it mentioned from time to time, but we only have "our side" of the story, and I guess the "other side", being a bit of a vacuum, can allow speculation to become fact. Whilst I don't outright disagree simply because I don't know the facts, I also take anything with a pinch of salt, and given DJ's apparent business acumen with tax and websites, I just wonder.

 

Although other model producers have had products significantly delayed by factory moves / shutdowns / relocation / CNY etc they don't seem to have had issues with alleged tool ownership / legalities etc.  

 

Yes they do.

USA Trains cannot do new runs of most of their locos due to a tooling dispute relating to a forced factory move. I believe they can't get the tooling released even though it was paid for and they have been told by the original factory that they will no longer produce USAT items. Another version of this story is that some of the tools have been "lost" in transit. Whatever the cause new production is proving to be impossible at the moment due to a lack of availability of existing tooling.

There was also the famous Newquida LGB rip off.  This is where blatant copies of LGB items suddenly appeared at very low prices.  They were inferior in terms of the plastics used and the wheels etc but it did appear they were using the moulds from LGB China produced items. LGB enthusiasts were appalled and even made a video of a public burning of at least one item. Complaints were made to trading standards in the UK forcing one retailer to remove these items from sale. In the end it turned out that the use of these moulds was legitimate and they are still in production today. Whether LGB sold the rights for the models or the sets of tooling or just didn't pay debts (they were going bust at the time) is not clear. What is for sure is that cheap copies of LGB models that are made from the original or identical tooling are perfectly legally in production today.

Aristocraft ceased trading and apparently left some unpaid bills in China as they closed. Kadar made some if not all of their locos and rolling stock. One railcar and the motor blocks for some locos have since been re-released by Bachmann USA so they are making use of tooling commissioned by another company. Again this production will be completely legal.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Chris M

[chris p bacon]

Disagree with your first paragraph in relation to our hobby, in that it is a specialist commodity rather than a general shelf item.  Yes, maybe consumers would purchase an item if it were considered cheap enough and of good enough quality. But toy trains is a hobby and people shelling from their hobby purse will surely want to buy with trust and confidence ? So at least some of "Joe Public" will be considering a quality product overiding cheapness.  If that wasn't the case then Dyson would not be selling hairdryers for nearly three hundred quid !!!  

 

 

I don't disagree with your point, I just think the hobby is much larger than those of us on forums. Should something be produced which had a question mark over it, then I'm not sure where the majority of  purchasers would get their info from.

 

I realise the above is taking the thread OT,  but the relative point is that the majority of modellers aren't on forums so these models need to be publicised even more than they are to avoid stalling.

[Andy Y]

Yes, maybe consumers would purchase an item if it were considered cheap enough and of good enough quality. But toy trains is a hobby and people shelling from their hobby purse will surely want to buy with trust and confidence ?

 

The majority do have common sense Phil but sadly I see some where the price is everything no matter what the risk factor may be. This week I see people trying to place orders with a bogus business relying on their credit card protection as a fallback - in whose interest is that? Also I see models coming out the back door of a China factory sold on ebay via a Taiwanese intermediary. Where's the warranty? I'd also say the risk of a duffer turning up would be higher than dealing with an accredited stockist. None of that seems to matter, it's all about the price but with an expectation that someone else will pick up the pieces. Meanwhile all it does is reward theft and fraud and increase the chance of someone else getting caught out at some point in the future.

 

As most of us know there's always someone greedy or stupid enough out there. They walk amongst us.

[jjb1970]

I think it's worth pointing out that there is a fundamental difference between illegal practices and practices we might not like. I see plenty of behaviour I don't like from suppliers of consumer goods, I'm an audio enthusiasts and the snake oil and utter nonsense peddled by some audio equipment suppliers is vomit inducing but in most cases I don't see it as illegal as their promotional material is often very cleverly worded. There is the long established concept of grey market goods, if people knowily buy a product being aware that the UK importers will not provide any warranty services, the spec may be slightly different and you have no real come back then it's fair enough but some sellers do not make this clear and are misleading people into thinking they're getting a great bargain and not letting people know the down sides of that bargain.

 

On Chinese factories and businesses, of course there are bad businesses and practices, just as there are in any country. The issues I have with a lot of comments on this particular subject are sweeping generalisations that the bad eggs are representative of Chinese businesses in general, that such practices are uniquely Chinese and a propensity to accept any story from British and American sources about nefarious practices at face value without ever asking the question - maybe the problem isn't the Chinese. I can honestly say in all the time I've worked with Chinese businesses and time spent in China that I saw nothing that I didn't also see anywhere else (in fact I found corruption and graft to be far lower than many other places I've been and Chinese businesses to be quite punctilious in their approach to business once a contract has been agreed) and that it was no more stressful or problematic than working with businesses anywhere else. Ask a question, why do some businesses manage their relationships with Chinese manufacturers very well and deliver products made to extremely high quality standards and others don't? Are we really to believe that whenever anything goes wrong it is nefarious Chinese people who should be blamed?

 

I am a collector of brass models, it was an open secret that additional models would sometimes leave the back door or Korean factories and enter the grey market, yet I can't recall that ever leading to sweeping generalisations about South Korea (nor should it have done). Similarly some brass importers had lots of horror stories about manufacturers who had built up relationships with importers going back many decades and who were renowned for their quality.

[wellseasoned]

A month has passed by...have I missed something relating to the King class locos I've invested in?

[Tomsontour]

1 hour ago, wellseasoned said:

A month has passed by...have I missed something relating to the King class locos I've invested in?

 

I think it's more dave let's us know when there is something to actually report on these locos, I'm holding tight for now : ) 

 

Matt

[grahame]

On ‎26‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 09:55, Tomsontour said:

 

I think it's more dave let's us know when there is something to actually report on these locos, I'm holding tight for now : ) 

 

Matt

 

Unfortunately Dave is not going to let people (either potential customers or those who have placed an order) know when there is something to report on this forum/thread as he no longer posts here.

 

His website seems to be the main source of information although unfortunately it doesn't seem to be kept up to date. I checked this morning and noticed this comment concerning the King - "Pre-order book closes once model goes to tooling in late August / early September 2018."

 

G

[dpgibbons]

As I understand it the project won't progress further until it gets enough deposits to begin tooling, so there's likely nothing to report. 

[grahame]

11 hours ago, dpgibbons said:

As I understand it the project won't progress further until it gets enough deposits to begin tooling, so there's likely nothing to report. 

 

Yep, but the snag is that when there is something to report Dave won't be posting that information here and in the meantime he is missing out on marketing his projects on RMweb to promote confidence and get more orders/deposits.

 

G

[phil-b259]

23 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

Yep, but the snag is that when there is something to report Dave won't be posting that information here and in the meantime he is missing out on marketing his projects on RMweb to promote confidence and get more orders/deposits.

 

G

 

He is also missing out on some downright rude and offensive postings (on various DJModel threads) by some RMweb members with an axe to grind.....

 

[grahame]

24 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

He is also missing out on some downright rude and offensive postings (on various DJModel threads) by some RMweb members with an axe to grind.....

 

 

Unfortunately that seems to come with the territory these days - I've seen pretty unpleasant posts about most manufacturers and there does seem to be some with an axe to grind. But, of course, he doesn't escape them being posted in the first place and could refute, rebut and debunk many here. Or at least offer an explanation.

 

It's an opportunity to engage and a shame that he no longer does.

 

G

 

[jjb1970]

Any public facing role requires a bit of thick skin. If you are a public face of a company or organisation and very visible then you need a very thick skin. Whether that is right or wrong is moot as it is just how it is. 

 

Personally I think that most people are pretty reasonable and bright enough to recognise those who at least try and behave decently and act accordingly. 

[Chris M]

When I spoke to Dave at Stafford exhibition he was sure the King project would go ahead. He has put a lot of time into it.

[wellseasoned]

18 minutes ago, Chris M said:

 

When I spoke to Dave at Stafford exhibition he was sure the King project would go ahead. He has put a lot of time into it.

 

 

All things said and done I do believe he should give some brief updates to those of us who have shown faith in him and parted with our cash. It does not need to be reams, just a couple of lines of project update to reassure people that things are "on track" 

 

It also serves as good P.R. when modellers speak to each-other. The sparse updates and not knowing where the model is at doesn't fill me with confidence to go for the Mogul. This must surely be the same for many others, so it's a sort of own goal he is scoring, but maybe he just doesn't recognise this?

 

Granted he has come in for a fair bit of stick from people, many saying when I actually see something from him then maybe I will part with my money. He would therefore do himself some great favours if he kept those of us supporting the King project in the loop (no pun intended...honestly)

 

[Snowwolflair]

8 minutes ago, wellseasoned said:

 

 

All things said and done I do believe he should give some brief updates to those of us who have shown faith in him and parted with our cash. It does not need to be reams, just a couple of lines of project update to reassure people that things are "on track" 

 

It also serves as good P.R. when modellers speak to each-other. The sparse updates and not knowing where the model is at doesn't fill me with confidence to go for the Mogul. This must surely be the same for many others, so it's a sort of own goal he is scoring, but maybe he just doesn't recognise this?

 

Granted he has come in for a fair bit of stick from people, many saying when I actually see something from him then maybe I will part with my money. He would therefore do himself some great favours if he kept those of us supporting the King project in the loop (no pun intended...honestly)

 

 

I think we have to keep in mind that its been Chinese New Year for the last month, like Christmas + New Year+ Easter and a few bank holidays thrown in for good measure and nothing will have happened since late January (and probably since before Christmas), so probably nothing to report.

[Chris M]

Must say I agree with the above. I have paid my money towards the King but need to see this progress before I'm prepared to commit to funding the 63xx project. It has to be said that s 63xx would be a more useful loco but the king needs to be in my possession before I would invest in another DJM crowdfunding project. 

I'm still annoyed with the many people who promised they would crowdfund the king project but didn't pay up when asked. That certainly isn't Dave's fault.

[woodenhead]

It's a catch 22 situation, people will be more inclined to pay up if they were more assured a model may be completed but in order to get a completed model you need people to pay up.

 

I was reading the class 17 thread earlier and it seemed it had the numbers when it was pulled by Dave, there has never really been a proper explanation and that probably spooked a lot of people.

[5944]

13 hours ago, woodenhead said:

It's a catch 22 situation, people will be more inclined to pay up if they were more assured a model may be completed but in order to get a completed model you need people to pay up.

 

I was reading the class 17 thread earlier and it seemed it had the numbers when it was pulled by Dave, there has never really been a proper explanation and that probably spooked a lot of people.

Exactly. I'd like a King, and a 63xx, but his N gauge output isn't exactly stellar. One wagon, admittedly very good, which hasn't had a rerun. A Shark which to all intents and purposes is ready to be manufactured but hasn't. A Class 17 that was almost there before getting pulled. Expressions of interest for a few other items, and no information whatsoever about others. None of it really inspires confidence. 

 

I know a lot of his work has been commissions for other companies, but an N gauge wagon and two OO gauge locos doesn't seem a lot to show for a company that's been in existence for nearly 6 years. 

Edited March 4, 2019 by 5944

[The Western Master]

According to a Facebook post Dave will have an update on several projects at N Gauge Southeast thus weekend. This includes news of the King, fingers crossed for a painted sample....

Edited April 4, 2019 by The Western Master

[MarshLane]

There is a deal been done with Digitrains in Lincoln to produce an exclusive limited edition of the King in N of 6000 King George V fully fitted with DCC sound, which has got the project over the line and means that its going to be delivered.

 

Had an interesting bit of a chat with Dave, and it is obvious that he's passionate about what he wants to do - but I think a lot of us (me included) forget the huge sums of money involved in the production of a model these days.  While we think the time to deliver is long at times (although Bachmann, Hornby and Dapol are no better to be honest)  and purchase price is higher than we'd like sometimes, but try adding three zeros to the cost - that must give an idea of the finance involved in buying a 1000 of them in.  I doubt a bank would ever loan a business that kind of money on the off chance a 2mm model sells.  Others have told me what Dave has put into this, and whether you support him or not, if its right, it sounds like he's taken some very brave choices to try and make this work.  He's not a Bachmann or Dapol where there are numerous people working on things, its a one-man band.  With the update on projects that are on the other DJM thread, while I appreciate a lot of people have concerns, but if it reaches fruition like Dave says the Shark and Mermaids will this November, then everyone wins?  

 

There's a space in my display cabinet when the King arrives!

[jjb1970]

Look on the bright side, the amount of time that DJM have been working on the King should result in a super accurate model.

[grahame]

2 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

Look on the bright side, the amount of time that DJM have been working on the King should result in a super accurate model.

 

DJM announced that they were working on the development of the following four new locomotives back in md 2014:

• Class 59 diesel
• GWR mogul 2-6-0
• Raven Q6 0-8-0
• Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0ST

None of these was crowdfunded (at that time) but in the last 5 years that has changed to it being just the Mogul and Hudswell still featured on the DJM website and both now crowdfunded - or at least will not proceed until sufficient numbers or orders/deposits paid are received.

 

The King loco was announced later, so less time to be worked on than those four listed above (and which was not the first round of DJM announcements which earlier included a class 17 and class 23 both of which appear to have stalled). But presumably sufficient time for a super accurate model - after all the website still says:

 

"Pre-order book closes once model goes to tooling in late August / early September 2018."

 

I just wish Dave would concentrate on a few projects, provide accurate update information and bring them to fruition. I'd certainly like to see him succeed in producing N gauge products, but the current lackadaisical approach and scattergun targeting is hampering that.

 

G

[jjb1970]

One of the worst things you can do in any business is to over promise and under deliver. Most people are pretty reasonable and understand the difficulties faced by those producing model trains. However if you tell customers you will do something then people will assess your performance against what you have said you would do. The DJM program was highly optimistic and would have challenged well funded companies with good development resources never mind a one man band reliant on crowd funding. I think a reset and pruning plans to something he has a chance of delivering would be no bad thing. He also dug a hole by claiming he would be setting new standards, testing models and providing spares support and then failing to deliver. If you are going to make claims then follow through and deliver, otherwise it just backfires and looks unprofessional.