Class 50 why fifty.

[Rugd1022]

There are a few shots of of them around the West Mids area in the Bradford Barton book 'Diesles In The West Midlands and Central Wales', with one shot of (I think) 422 at Madeley Junction on an Ironbridge working and another doing a loco swap at Bushbury on a weekend diverted passenger working.

 

It's a funny thing but we rarely see their early pre-Tops period being modelled...!

Edited March 20, 2017 by Rugd1022

[brushman47544]

You do know why they were called Duffs?

 

I always understood that the term "Duff" was a moniker originally given by WR spotters/bashers to Class 47s when they turned up on a train instead of a (preferred) hydraulic, and so had nothing really to do with their performance.

[PenrithBeacon]

My understanding at the time was that BR were disappointed with the performance of the Brush engines and that shortfall plus the need for more Type 4 engines for an improved service WCML north of Preston turned minds to the possibility of introducing a production version of the DP2.

 

Because there had always difficulties with adhesion on Shap and Beattock BR decided to introduce electronic traction control on the new machines and there might, memory is a serious issue nowadays, have been other electronic gadgets introduced too. I worked in avionics as a designer at the time and I can personally vouch for the difficulties in designing electronics for a high vibration environment at that time. I still blush at the bodge-up that was the navigation computer for the Concorde. I was too junior at the time to have had much of an input, but suffice it to say that an American computer got the gig.

 

The D400s were thought of as a success in the sixties. They had a higher availability than the D1500 class and, working in pairs, they did the job required of them. There had always been a speed restriction at the top of Shap bank, a purely theoretical speed restriction because nothing was doing much more than forty by the time they got up there, but the twin D400s had to apply brakes to keep the speed under 75 (?) IIRC.

 

WR clamoured to get them to replace the diesel-hydraulics which showed, I think, the reputation they had at the the time. But, as the WR introduced the HST, I got the impression that they weren't paying sufficient attention to maintenance hence their reputation suffered.

 

The electronics were removed later, but I gather that the traction control equipment was missed when the engines were put on freight duties. One of the weaknesses of BR I think was its dismissal of new ideas if they didn't work immediately. Instead of seeing the possibilities of traction control and working at it the concept was just dropped. It wasn't until the arrival of the EMD Class 59 that the penny dropped but by then it was too late for British designed diesels.

 

Regards

[TheSignalEngineer]

With regard to workings to power stations, David Monk-Steel, in his excellent book on Merry-Go-Round workings, suggests that only three such workings took place. Locos 421, 411 and 425 worked the 07:00 Silverdale (Staffs)- Ironbridge on the 9th to 11th August 1972.

 

One was used on the first train loaded on the new bunker at Silverdale which would be late 1971 or January 1972. From memory it was probably 401. I gave up recording numbers after steam finished.

[GordonC]

On another thread there was a photo of one on an MGR at Hooton in 1974

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/120917-class-50s-on-the-joint/&do=findComment&comment=2654792

[The Johnster]

Or even just built 50 DP2s - ie without all the extra gubbins that was unreliable/unused and would eventually be removed at refurbishment

 

50 new DP2s would not have had the required electric train heating equipment, or train air brakes, nor could they have satisfied the demand for through control double heading so that the LMR/ScR could introduce the promised accelerated Euston-Glasgow timetable despite the electrification having been deferred.  The railway had been left between a rock and a hard place by this deferral, and EE were able to supply the locos quickly while being prepared to take on the responsibility of maintaining them, Deltic style.

['CHARD]

It's a funny thing but we rarely see their early pre-Tops period being modelled...!

 

Just you wait our kid - my wee roster (presently two, possibly growing to a trio) are being modelled pre- their MW cables being screwed-on.  

 

Not unlike this:

https://www.railscot.co.uk/imageenlarge/singleimage.php?id=46919

 

 

or this!!!

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/000-0-a-t-ermel-D402-D1739.jpg

Edited March 20, 2017 by 'CHARD

[The Johnster]

A deafening silence fell over the poor quality performance of the 47s in the 60s/70s.

 

It had to, because after 512 had been ordered by the gung-ho management, it would have been a shock to most people to find, that after engine de-rating, they were hardly any more powerful than a Peak.

 

I do wonder if that was a contributory factor to the lack of interest in Kestrel? Did they wonder if 4000hp was a step too far for Brush at that early stage, when 2750hp had been proved problematic?

 

 

A derated 47 is not much more powerful than a Peak, 50hp is neither here nor there, but the 47s were 20-odd tons lighter, and should still have been half a coach better than a Peak.  Unless the Peak was newly outshopped, they rode a lot better as well.  At least, that's what the numbers say; my experience of working trains with both types as a freight guard in the 70s was that there was little to choose between them, and what I consider my best ever run, a 1.200 ton Freightliner that did Gloucester Tramway to Cardiff Pengam reception start to stop in 56 minutes without breaking any speed limits, was with a 45.

[luckymucklebackit]

When introduced, didn't the Class 50s get to places way off the electrified WCML route as well, so I'm pretty sure they got to Perth, Passenger and Freightliner services to North Wales?, Barrow, Heysham, Blackpool and would they not have appeared on the Glasgow/Edinburgh - Liverpool/Manchester services too?

 

and would they have ordered extras for the additional travel time for diversions away from the WCML route to go via Dumfries?

 

They were regulars at Perth, saw my first one (D403) there in 1968 and saw them going through Coatbridge Central every day on the afternoon service.  There is a picture of on at Forfar on a trip freight working.  They could also turn up at Edinburgh and I have seen other photographs at Eastfield for tyre turning and at Dalry on a diverted service via Paisley. 

 

Jim

['CHARD]

Perth, you say:

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=3726

https://www.railscot.co.uk/imageenlarge/singleimage.php?id=2963

['CHARD]

They were regulars at Perth, saw my first one (D403) there in 1968 and saw them going through Coatbridge Central every day on the afternoon service.  There is a picture of on at Forfar on a trip freight working.  They could also turn up at Edinburgh and I have seen other photographs at Eastfield for tyre turning and at Dalry on a diverted service via Paisley. 

 

Jim

 

On September 28th 2009, luckymucklebackit wrote:

 

 

"Class 50s were common at Perth from 1968 until they were transferred away to the Western Region, I saw my first 50 (D403) at Perth in early 1968 and they were the norm on the afternoon Crewe to Perth working, they became rarer after 1971 when the WCML was closed during the day for electrification work, and the through daytime Perths were withdrawn, and they did not reappear on any Clansman services that I saw. Furthest north I have seen a photograph of a 50 was at Forfar, there is a photograph of 416 shunting at Forfar in "Diesels on the Regions - Scottish Region" by Tom Noble"

Edited March 20, 2017 by 'CHARD

[luckymucklebackit]

On September 28th 2009, luckymucklebackit wrote:

 

 

"Class 50s were common at Perth from 1968 until they were transferred away to the Western Region, I saw my first 50 (D403) at Perth in early 1968 and they were the norm on the afternoon Crewe to Perth working, they became rarer after 1971 when the WCML was closed during the day for electrification work, and the through daytime Perths were withdrawn, and they did not reappear on any Clansman services that I saw. Furthest north I have seen a photograph of a 50 was at Forfar, there is a photograph of 416 shunting at Forfar in "Diesels on the Regions - Scottish Region" by Tom Noble"

OOOps

 

Sorry

 

jim

['CHARD]

OOOps

 

Sorry

 

jim

 

It's fantastic how close the actual wording is!!!!  I was hunting for 50 archive stuff when I came across it and thought it looked familiar!

 

Clearly this subject comes round every 8 years, which is probably about right!

[Oldddudders]

OOOps

 

Sorry

 

jim

 

Don't be sorry. The same tale told twice reaches a new audience! 

[The Stationmaster]

I can well remember their arrival on the Western - in fact I would be far happier to forget the blasted things as they were a load of junk but they needed a home and the WR had been told its hydraulics had to go plus the need was for more ETH fitted locos so that was that.

 

And until they were refurbished they remained a load of highly unreliable junk. On their first full Summer Saturday on the West of England services we had a total of 16 of them having to come off at Westbury as failures over the course of the day - we ran out of Type 4s to replace them then Bath Road ran out of Type 4s to send over to us and the last ones to come off were replaced by the ones that had failed in the morning and presumably had received sufficient time shutdown to recollect their thoughts.

 

Once they were refurbished they became far more reliable (just as well really) and benefitted from the major simplification of various boxes of tricks that the refurbishment removed and they could shift quite fast when given the chance although i always had the impression their acceleration was not as good as a Brush Type 4 - but that could be because they did things a lot more quietly as far as being in the cab was concerned and you didn't have to worry about actually having to drive them (which feature I didn't like).  In my opinion they had the advantage of being better riding than the Brush design but then so did Hymeks.

Edited March 20, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[TheSignalEngineer]

Don't be sorry. The same tale told twice reaches a new audience! 

And the same tale told three times usually gets a laugh, even if it's not funny. 

['CHARD]

I can well remember their arrival on the western - in fact I would be far happier to forget the blasted things as they were a load of junk

 

I have an absolutely archetypal love-hate for the class.  

 

First recognised them as something different and exotic at Crewe when I began spotting, but next time I encountered them they were largely responsible for hastening the demise of my beloved Westerns.

 

Fast forward a few years to when I was courting, the locos I had seen some evenings on my homeward school run, became associated with the New Street - Exeter, and Exeter - Honiton journey of longing, and once I discovered they had made rare forays over the WR, well that was me smitten. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

I can well remember their arrival on the western - in fact I would be far happier to forget the blasted things as they were a load of junk

I remember them on test from new. The PWay came close to derailing one at Tattenhall Road before it even entered traffic. A quick bit of 'Between Trains' rail changing nearly went drastically wrong.

[45125]

The Western inherited the 400s in woeful state from the LMR. It took quite a while to train the maintainace staff on them and a lot of the electronics some people cold never get the heads round it. The rheo had to be isolated early due to several locos getting loose tyres as the system was not set up to blend correctly and one 400 almost derailed due to this.

 

It may have been wise for the Western to allocate all 50 to just one depot rather than splitting it between three OC,BR and LA.

 

I can remember working on one of the first to visit the Plant for overhaul and it was in a very woeful state and you could tell the neglect on it stretched back as far as its LMR days.

[slilley]

Is your book going to be reprinted? I wish I'd bought one when it came out at Dereham. I was driving 401 and the DRS one on the Saturday of that event

 

I'm not sure actually. It sold out last year, and with the sale of Ian Allan's railway book publishing interests to Crecy I guess it will need to be them that we approach.

 

I would not rule it in or out. I am looking at a photographic supplement to Class 47 50 Years of Locomotive History. There were plenty of pictures we could have included but were not able to because of space constraints and plenty we have acquired since that deserve an airing.

 

Once I get my Class 71/74 book out the way I should be able to look at this in more detail.

 

Watch this space.

 

Best wishes

 

Simon 

[slilley]

Thanks Simon.

 

It is May 2011, and I have managed to download a digital back issue.

 

May 2011, gosh doesnt time fly!!

[Zomboid]

As a small child (about 8) a kind driver invited me into the cab of what I subsequently learnt must have been a 50. In theory it could have been a 47, but those are boring so I'm sticking with it being a 50.

Always had a soft spot for them since that.

[The Johnster]

Glory to the Hypnotoad, Zomboid.

 

I remember my first cabbing, lifted onto the footplate of 70026 Polar Star on the up Red Dragon at Cardiff General in 1957, when I was 5, by Uncle Ted; you never forget your first.

 

I understand your possible confusion between 47 and 50, as they were not radically different in the cab; do you remember a draught excluder with a small window let into it behind the driver and secondman's seats?  Have to say I have the oppositie of a soft spot for 50s, the locos that started the cascade that finally saw off steam and then saw off my lovely Westerns, but the fastest speed I ever travelled at on any train other than a HST was behind a 50.

 

They were not standard fare at Cardiff, but an up Sunday morning turn was given to a Bristol driver and loco which involved a run from Cardiff to Paddington via Gloucester and Sapperton with 8 mk1/2s, all 100mph stock on B4 bogies, no catering.  This was in the late 80s.  Being Sunday morning, the train had usually lost time to per. way restrictions by the time it had got to Didcot, and, with such a paltry load, would make a go of making it up from there to Reading and Paddington.  I timed it running between Goring and Streatley, and Pangbourne, at 114mph on the way to a model railway show at Wembley, I think the first year it was held there instead of Central Hall, which might date it.  I always considered them to have the edge on a 47 for acceleration, and to be the equal of the Westerns they replaced in that respect, but less amenable than a Western to heavy freight work.  And they were very noisy; show me an EE loco that wasn't!.  My very limited experience suggests that the ride was typical EE, not a surprise given that they ran on the same bogies as the 37s and Deltics; firm, hard even, but smooth and rock steady, whereas a 47 rolled, swayed, and pitched like an ocean liner in a gale.  The 47 cab was much better insulated from engine and compressor or generator noise.  47s were a better all rounder mixed traffic beast, and appreciation of that was for a long time one of my indicators as to whether the person I was talking to was a proper railwayman or just an enthusiast...

 

In 1966 I rode behind DP2 between Doncaster and York, and thought that that could accelerate pretty well as well.  The noise was pretty much identical!

Edited March 20, 2017 by The Johnster

[Flood]

Let's finally get one thing clear...

 

The 50s were not responsible for the demise/withdrawal/ending of the Westerns, B.R Headquarters had that privilege (for want of a better word).

 

The Class 50s were, and always will be, large, metal (inanimate, sometimes) objects with no means of having responsibility at all.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

If the CMEE of BR at the time (Harrison) hadn't liked Sulzer engines so much, then 563 DP2s would've been interesting.....