DC or DCC?

[Chris M]

Very interesting discussion so far, but the one point I picked up on is how DC can be superior on very large layouts, particularly where a locomotive in a siding or hidden fiddle yard can't be seen clearly enough (or at all) to determine the address and direction.  DCC is great on my small layouts, but I can see it being difficult to adapt to certain situations.  Battery powered radio control suffers from the same problem - a train must be identified before it can be moved.

 

I'm also curious as to how the complexity of the wiring changes with layout size on DC as opposed to DCC.  Any DC layout will have isolated sections, but with multiple power districts on a DCC layout, does the wiring complexity start to 'catch up' with that of DC as layout size increases?

 

I'm pretty sure its not that simple. When designing a layout I would go through the expected train/loco movements on a plan and then work out what best suits your needs. What system is best for the operation you envisage? What will you be most comfortable operating? What will you be most comfortable building? Both roundy roundy and end  to end layouts can work very well with either method but sometimes features of the layout or operational wants will dictate which system is best.

For instance the Warley club new N gauge layout which is over 20ft long really would be better if it was dcc in order to allow more than one train in each direction at a time. On such a long layout this would allow improved train frequency at exhibitions but as pretty much all of the members are dc the decision obviously had to be dc. It might end up being wired so that either dcc or dc can be used.

 

My own layout is dc. I would say it was a reasonably complex layout.

 

 

The control panel is however very simple. The blue buttons are used to select the track and the toggle switches the controller.

 

 

 

Supplemented by an easy to follow storage road identification system. And yes, having two tracks for road 1 was an afterthought which explains the little toggle switch in the corner.

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Chris M

[L&Y]

I used to have a large loft layout that was run on Hornbys old Zero 1 system. It worked pretty well and I wonder if Hornbys marketing and launch hadn't been so botched the revolution may have come sooner. But the additional cost of the chips and sound rule out DCC for me for now.  I'm far more interested in battery power and live locomotives as that seems more prototypical and removes the risk of a dirty wheel bringing everything to an unscheduled halt.  

[dpgibbons]

For me the most compelling reason to go digital has been the superb slow running available with DCC control and high quality decoders. 

[bike2steam]

For me the most compelling reason to go digital has been the superb slow running available with DCC control and high quality decoders. 

I get that with DC !!?? But the advantage of DCC is multiple loco operation (banking, double-heading etc), and large engine shed layouts.

[Neil McGrath]

For large layouts with multiple trains that frequently change direction then DCC is the way to go. However, for continuous circuit operation and for relatively simple layouts, DC is the cheaper option and will often work just as well. My home layouts are all DC but at the club it is DCC for multiple operators and more complex operation. 

[dpgibbons]

I get that with DC !!?? But the advantage of DCC is multiple loco operation (banking, double-heading etc), and large engine shed layouts.

 

If you get consistently superb slow running with DC then you have been more fortunate in your loco purchases than I have. On my N gauge DC test track, the stalling (ie slowest sustainable) speed of my loco fleet after running in varies from 0.4mph to 23mph!

 

I have just started to DCC my fleet with the Zimo MX622N chip and it is certainly making a big difference to the mediocre runners. My Farish 5MT on DC managed a 5.7mph stalling speed. On DCC and with only a preliminary tuning of the motor settings, that has dropped to 1.5mph.  The stall speed of my Dapol Class 121 has fallen from 7mph to 1.1mph.  

Edited April 30, 2017 by dpgibbons

[PaulRhB]

I get that with DC !!?? But the advantage of DCC is multiple loco operation (banking, double-heading etc), and large engine shed layouts.

Unfortunately there are quite a lot of cheap motors now being used that do work a lot better with the BEMF on DCC although you can get the same from a good DC feedback controller too no doubt but then they don't like coreless motors now being used

The combination of motor and decoder is now taking over from motor and controller.

[Stevelewis]

I am  in  the  process  of  building  an (other)00-9 layout,  which is planned  to  be  analogue  due  to  its  simplicity,  this  will be   the  firs  time  I  have  used  analogue  for 20 years now!

 

I have  even  purchased  a new  analogue  power  unit.

 

However  as  the  building  continues  and  the  wiring and  switches associated  with  this starts  to build  up  I  am  seriously  considering  abandoning my Analogue  plan  and  using  digital.

 

Particularly  as  I  have  noted  that when  I did a  quick  test   with a  couple  of  my NG locos on  the  track  laid  so  far,  they performed   better (ie slow speed) when  I connected  a digital system*****  than  with  the analogue  controller

 

**** NOTE  Being  extremely careful  to  disconnect  the analogue controller  before connecting  the  Digital  output  they  don't  mix  too well, as  I  discovered back in 1997  when  I connected a  Lenz system  to  a layout  and  forgot  to  remove the DC input!!

[Stevelewis]

If you get consistently superb slow running with DC then you have been more fortunate in your loco purchases than I have. On my N gauge DC test track, the stalling (ie slowest sustainable) speed of my loco fleet after running in varies from 0.4mph to 23mph!

 

I have just started to DCC my fleet with the Zimo MX622N chip and it is certainly making a big difference to the mediocre runners. My Farish 5MT on DC managed a 5.7mph stalling speed. On DCC and with only a preliminary tuning of the motor settings, that has dropped to 1.5mph.  The stall speed of my Dapol Class 121 has fallen from 7mph to 1.1mph.  

 

One  of  the  great  advantages  of  digital  is  that  FULL  Volts  are  always  present  in  the  track, whereas  with Anaologue   only  the  controller supplied voltage will be  present at  the  locos  wheels   which collect  the  power, so  at  slow  speed only  perhaps 3  or  4 volts will be  present,  with digital  the  speed control is regulated  by  the  decoder so the loco pick is always getting a max voltage which  aids  pickup.

 

This  was  most  noticeable  when  I  converted my  Garden  railway  to Digital,  performance   at  low  speeds  improved  dramatically  and  track  cleaning  was  also  able   to be  done  less frequently.

[Chris M]

Unfortunately there are quite a lot of cheap motors now being used that do work a lot better with the BEMF on DCC although you can get the same from a good DC feedback controller too no doubt but then they don't like coreless motors now being used

The combination of motor and decoder is now taking over from motor and controller.

It is unfortunate that careless motors don't mix well with feedback controllers. My old H&M walkabouts give wonderful smooth slow running on dc; they have always been a pleasure to use. Now with coreless motors becoming the norm I am having to use a different controller to get them to run well. The non coreless motored locos of course don't run so well with a non feedback controller. I think coreless motors are lighter which equals less pulling power. I can only assume coreless motors are cheaper for the manufacturers or is it design for dcc compromising dc performance?

[coachmann]

My experience of railway modellers is, those who tell us they dont need DCC because they get good slow running on DC are simply living in a comfort zone; in other words, DCC frightens them. 

 

The fact is DCC controls loco mechanisms in a way that is impossible with DC. That alone is good enough for me, which is why I bothered to learn new tricks. But hey....You do what you want to do.

[Chris M]

My experience of railway modellers is, those who tell us they dont need DCC because they get good slow running on DC are simply living in a comfort zone; in other words, DCC frightens them. 

 

The fact is DCC controls loco mechanisms in a way that is impossible with DC. That alone is good enough for me, which is why I bothered to learn new tricks. But hey....You do what you want to do.

This is the sort of statement that really annoys me. Let me say very clearly that after 30 odd years working as IT professional "DCC does not frighten me". Having applied my IT related business analysis knowledge to the subject I have found that DCC does not provide any advantages that I particularly want; it is simply not the best choice for my N gauge railways. Out in the garden analysis of my needs has lead me to using BPRC rather than DCC. Its all about horses for courses. Please lets not have any more of this suggesting that those of us who choose to not use DCC are in any way inferior to those that do. 

[Tony Teague]

Isn't one of the key selling approaches for DCC to attract those who are frightened of DC wiring?

It seems to me that in reality one swaps wiring complexity for programming complexity - so you take your choice.

 

My personal choice to stay with DC is driven by three things:

1. I have no interest in some of the clear 'value adds' of DCC - such as sound, changing light configurations etc, and
2. I have 200+ locos - so the investment would be substantial
3. I don't seem to have problems with slow running that some do, yet I rarely clean my track

Each to his own!

 

Tony

[Chris M]

I really struggle to get smooth running with my poor old dc set up as can be seen in the vid. Please note that I was driving and filming at the same time so the driving could have been better.

https://youtu.be/nlCE3azXmEg

Edited April 30, 2017 by Chris M

[ruggedpeak]

My experience of railway modellers is, those who tell us they dont need DCC because they get good slow running on DC are simply living in a comfort zone; in other words, DCC frightens them. 

 

The fact is DCC controls loco mechanisms in a way that is impossible with DC. That alone is good enough for me, which is why I bothered to learn new tricks. But hey....You do what you want to do.

Yawn. Utter nonsense. As a user of IT and our digital world on a daily basis with whole rafts of whizzy digital things that never actually do what they were promised and fail at the slightest problem, the thought of spending yet more time with computer based stuff is tedium personified.

 

I am not frightened of DCC but thoroughly bored at the prospect of having a hobby sitting pushing buttons on a screen or having to tweak codes and numbers to get the trains to work. Some people may find that exciting, I don't.

 

Isn't one of the key selling approaches for DCC to attract those who are frightened of DC wiring?

It seems to me that in reality one swaps wiring complexity for programming complexity - so you take your choice.

 

My personal choice to stay with DC is driven by three things:

1. I have no interest in some of the clear 'value adds' of DCC - such as sound, changing light configurations etc, and
2. I have 200+ locos - so the investment would be substantial
3. I don't seem to have problems with slow running that some do, yet I rarely clean my track

Each to his own!

 

Tony

Agree 100%. Less wiring is just another example of the digital BS. Modellers far more capable than me have realised this is not actually true and one of the many delusions of DCC for anything more than a simple layout.

 

If people want to use DCC then fine, but perhaps they need to realise it isn't a religion and they are not smarter/wiser/better looking etc than those who don't use it. Although if Kim Kardashian switches to DCC I might review the situation....

Edited April 30, 2017 by ruggedpeak

[Legend]

I know I'm a Luddite. I have technology at work that I have to deal with all day. When I come back and get up the loft I don't want to think digital I just want to turn the dial and watch trains go round. I don't need sound, in fact in a lot (not all) cases I just find it annoying, but I can listen to the swish of a 5 or 6 coach train as she goes round the layout, listen to the clatter of her going over the junction. Superb. I've got isolating sections at stations so I can do shunting. Rudimentary wiring , nothing complicated. No power bus or anything like that.

 

So while I can see the advantages of DCC, where there is lots of shunting and double heading, people should be respectful and acknowledge it's not for everyone.

 

What I would also say is that DCC is a contributing fact in making the hobby more expensive . Not just cost of decoders but trains now manufactured to include DCC even though I don't want it. I'm thinking multiple units mainly that are more complex because through wired , but also Bachmann forthcoming 2Fs with DCC installed . Is it really necessary?

[Izzy]

Having moved from DC to DCC with both 2mm/2FS and 4mm/P4 I think it has to be accepted that better running in respect of more refined control is only to be found with the best decoders, i.e. either Zimo or CT. When I first converted I was very disappointed/frustrated with the poor quality control until I used these decoders. Frankly, anything else, from Lenz down, and I can get better performanc on DC without the large additional cost. If I hadn't discovered CT/Zimo I would have abandoned DCC and reverted back to DC. My 20/30 year old 7mm stuff will stay DC simply because it runs as well as anything I have chipped, even with CT/Zimo. So I think it's a case of horses for courses. That the level of advantage very much depends on where you are starting from, and what you need/expect and are happy with.

 

Izzy

Edited April 30, 2017 by Izzy

[ruggedpeak]

What I would also say is that DCC is a contributing fact in making the hobby more expensive . Not just cost of decoders but trains now manufactured to include DCC even though I don't want it. I'm thinking multiple units mainly that are more complex because through wired , but also Bachmann forthcoming 2Fs with DCC installed . Is it really necessary?

Totally agree with your post. It seems plenty of people want to buy new locos without the DCC. I wonder what impact Bachmann's increase in DCC sound models is having on sales. Several new items I want (Europhoenix 37, ATW 150 plus others) are DCC sound only and grossly overpriced IMHO. Any model shop that wants my business can sell them to me for a reasonably competitive non-DCC price, having done a deal for the DCC kit with someone else. Otherwise I won't be buying them, plenty of other good non-Bachmann models coming out, and you can't have too many 68's! I like how Dapol offered 3 options on the 68's, DC, DCC and Sound. I wonder how it worked regardings sales?

 

As for necessary, it isn't but equally its fine that there are options for those who want to use it and if it expands the hobby then great. The danger is that DC is pushed out and ceases to be viable - at that point DCC modellers are utterly exposed to be ransomed by a change in DCC standards driven by commercial interests. All of us should guard against any model rail business that is thinking along those lines It is standard practice in many consumer electronics markets, lets hope it doesn't infect model railways.

[Mike Storey]

Horses for courses sums it all up really.

 

If you don't want it, don't use it.

 

But the comparisons made between DC and DCC are often emotionally driven, rather than factual. Wiring for DCC can become extremely complicated if you follow "best practice" recommendations, but many on here have shown they have ignored such advice for years with few problems - 2 wires around the layout with as few droppers you can get away with. Live frog wiring extra, but that is true of DC. If you add points and signals via DCC chips, it can be simplicity itself.

 

But I too am half-a-luddite, and still wire points and signals separately on DC supply with their own switches (or manual via rodding where I can), as I don't want my layout to become a virtual computer game. But it means I have a lot more wiring! Nonetheless, I use DCC for train operation, not just for simplified wiring and the removal of restrictive isolating sections and easy double-heading, but also for the sound, lights and hopefully diesel fumes one day. It adds to my enjoyment. So I pay.

[jamesg]

What I would also say is that DCC is a contributing fact in making the hobby more expensive . Not just cost of decoders but trains now manufactured to include DCC even though I don't want it. I'm thinking multiple units mainly that are more complex because through wired , but also Bachmann forthcoming 2Fs with DCC installed . Is it really necessary?

An indicator of this problem is the traders buying DCC fitted models to split the locomotive and decoder.  It might be getting less of a problem now, especially with Hornby models as the decoders are now made available separately, but I'm not sure whether other brands are still making locomotives with a DCC sound only option.

[Davexoc]

As for necessary, it isn't but equally its fine that there are options for those who want to use it and if it expands the hobby then great. The danger is that DC is pushed out and ceases to be viable - at that point DCC modellers are utterly exposed to be ransomed by a change in DCC standards driven by commercial interests. All of us should guard against any model rail business that is thinking along those lines It is standard practice in many consumer electronics markets, lets hope it doesn't infect model railways.

At some point in the near future it is almost inevitable that standards will change. The current crop of chips will become obsolete, hardware and firmware will change and the latest and greatest won't support the older stuff forever. It is the nature of the beast. Of course, there will be a market for supporting the older products, but the prices will go up and up. Just look at industrial electronics, where a CPU board of twenty year old system can still be bought new, but if you want the latest and greatest, the whole set-up costs a few quid more.

 

Dave

[jjb1970]

I really don't agree with the argument that if you want the advantages of DCC you need to use high end equipment. Our trainset uses the Hornby E-Link system and models for the most part use either factory fitted chips or the basic Bachmann or Hornby chips and deliver superb slow speed performance and control. I have some European HO models with higher end chips and can't honestly say I've found any discernible difference in slow speed running and control.

[jjb1970]

With regard to the future and standards, my own belief is that at some point the hobby will move away from track power supply to on-board batteries with wireless control. Some already do that and it has been used in larger scales for many years, but I believe we'll see it enter the OO/HO mainstream.

[APOLLO]

DC for me, I'm not changing this lot then forking out £££'s for chips and the hassle of fitting them, (far too many loco's).

 

4 track low level mainly passenger main line control panels. Gaugemaster 4 track + 3 auxiliaries for more local use. Silver panel selects controller to line via rotary or DPDT switches. 2 right hand panels all on / off section / light switches, allocated as to track diagram panel hung below.

 

 

2 track high level goods lines / yards / MPD. Black box with push buttons is for sections on the MPD. The silver panel here does both sections (switches on the line diagram) and selects power between controllers (rotary /DPDT below). 2 hand held gaugemasters & the low level auxiliaries.

 

 

Dead easy to run also. Power on, turn knob & off they go. When I've finished, stop trains turn off main power and everything is ready to roll next time.!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I'll not knock DCC, or sound, both are wonderful innovations, but just not for me as I'm well too far down the DC route as you can see.

 

Brit15

 

 

[PaulRhB]

Good we all agree choice is good

I've got 'digit' powered, clockwork, battery, battery rc, DC and DCC and all have their own particular type of fun