DC or DCC?

[bike2steam]

DC for me, I'm not changing this lot, far too many loco's.

I'll not knock DCC, or sound, both are wonderful innovations, but just not for me as I'm well too far down the DC route.

 

Brit15

Likewise, I'm about to start building another layout, and I have too much good DC equipment to re-use rather than waste. Yeah I know, I'm a tight old git.

Edited May 1, 2017 by bike2steam

[Legend]

Likewise, I'm about to start building another layout, and I have too much good DC equipment to re-use rather than waste. Yeah I know, I'm a tight old git.

Nothing wrong with that!

[ROSSPOP]

It`s bank holiday Monday !...... time to wind up the minorities

 

I totally agree with those of you with large layouts and multiple locos/diesels etc,that is a unique facet of railway modelling.........

 

BUT!    DCC is a fascinating face too.............

 

 

 

4mm RTR.  You can`t do this with DC............  ( I trapped the front bogie wheel with the cylinder pipes !!!)

 

So.......

 

Sell all your 4mm stuff and move over to 7mm RTR....... you wont need so much stock or locos and the quality of manufacture is better.....

 

 

 

Of course those out there that can.......

 

KITS !!!!!

 

 

DC............

 

 

Vs.............

 

 

DCC..........

 

 

 

See ya..............

 

John

Edited May 1, 2017 by ROSSPOP

[Stevelewis]

I am  in  the  process  of  building  an (other)00-9 layout,  which is planned  to  be  analogue  due  to  its  simplicity,  this  will be   the  firs  time  I  have  used  analogue  for 20 years now!

 

I have  even  purchased  a new  analogue  power  unit.

 

However  as  the  building  continues  and  the  wiring and  switches associated  with  this starts  to build  up  I  am  seriously  considering  abandoning my Analogue  plan  and  using  digital.

 

Particularly  as  I  have  noted  that when  I did a  quick  test   with a  couple  of  my NG locos on  the  track  laid  so  far,  they performed   better (ie slow speed) when  I connected  a digital system*****  than  with  the analogue  controller

 

**** NOTE  Being  extremely careful  to  disconnect  the analogue controller  before connecting  the  Digital  output  they  don't  mix  too well, as  I  discovered back in 1997  when  I connected a  Lenz system  to  a layout  and  forgot  to  remove the DC input!!

 

Well further  to  the  above .. and  a  lot  of  soul  searching  ( about  3  minutes  actually)   I  though  **D It  ,  and  decided  to  abandon  the  analogue  plan  and  use  digital,  the   track laying  on  the  layout (00-9)   which is  in a  8 x 6 shed  is  only  about  1/3  complete  with  a  terminus so far  completed  it  has  just  4  points,  but  this  morning  wiring  revisions have  taken place  which  resulted  in  the  removal  of  6  section  switches and  asocociated  cabling,  and  simply  wiring  round the  dead  sections.  AND  removing  the  shelf protruding  from  the  baseboard  which  the  controller  and  switch panels were  sited  on!

This  leaves  me  with  a  spare  Morley  Vectis  twin  controller  and  some  switches

[coachmann]

It`s bank holiday Monday !...... time to wind up the minorities

 

I totally agree with those of you with large layouts and multiple locos/diesels etc,that is a unique facet of railway modelling.........

 

BUT!    DCC is a fascinating face too.............

 

Very nice ROSSPOP. I am interested to know which sound decoders and speakers you used in the Bachmann Standard 5 and the MR 1F please.

[Mike Storey]

Well, I am fully committed now. I have just bought a (Taunton Controls) ZTC 611 (with a 622 hand throttle too) second hand but nearly new, from a chum of ours on here, and very, very nice it is too! It has all the knobs and levers I want.....and still does the whizzy DCC stuff.

[Chris M]

It`s bank holiday Monday !...... time to wind up the minorities

 

I totally agree with those of you with large layouts and multiple locos/diesels etc,that is a unique facet of railway modelling.........

 

BUT! DCC is a fascinating face too.............

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivzg6OfZNsA

 

4mm RTR. You can`t do this with DC............ ( I trapped the front bogie wheel with the cylinder pipes !!!)

 

So.......

 

Sell all your 4mm stuff and move over to 7mm RTR....... you wont need so much stock or locos and the quality of manufacture is better.....

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGqkHW5VPCo

 

Of course those out there that can.......

 

KITS !!!!!

 

 

DC............

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHjRHcWxLrg

 

Vs.............

 

 

DCC..........

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylO_Pd0pzj4

 

 

See ya..............

 

John

Wired. The std 5 does 3 chuffs per revolution and the tank does 5. I have the same problem with my dc steamies sound . Edited May 1, 2017 by Chris M

[Chris M]

Ok this is G scale but I'm reasonably happy with the £49 mylocosound chip running on dc track power. It's from trying to adjust this that I got the bad habit of counting chuffs per revolution. It's best not to.

I deliberately chose the incorrect whistle because it sounds better to my English ears.

 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Chris M

[coachmann]

Chuff synchro isn't accurate across the speed range without a cam. I did spot the Standard Five beat was dropping back slightly with each wheel revolution at starting speed but it settled down to 4-beats as it gathered speed.

[ROSSPOP]

 

Very nice ROSSPOP. I am interested to know which sound decoders and speakers you used in the Bachmann Standard 5 and the MR 1F please.

 

 

Hi there

 

I see no reason to ever stray from Zimo decoders in either 4 or 7mm modelling.  The Class 5 has the 644 but I try and stay with the 645.........

 

 

 

and the trusty sugar cube speaker......................

 

 

for 7mm  use the base enhanced  or the base reflex speakers available through either Digitrains or Youchoos.......

 

 

I hav`nt got their parts numbers....sorry....

 

John

[ROSSPOP]

Ok this is G scale but I'm reasonably happy with the £49 mylocosound chip running on dc track power. It's from trying to adjust this that I got the bad habit of counting chuffs per revolution. It's best not to.

I deliberately chose the incorrect whistle because it sounds better to my English ears.

 

 

very nice sound Chris....I would be happy with that and the cost !!!!!!

 

John

[coachmann]

Hi there

 

I see no reason to ever stray from Zimo decoders in either 4 or 7mm modelling.  The Class 5 has the 644 but I try and stay with the 645.........

 

 

DSC01464.JPG

 

and the trusty sugar cube speaker......................

 

 

for 7mm  use the base enhanced  or the base reflex speakers available through either Digitrains or Youchoos.......

 

DSC03139.JPG

 

I hav`nt got their parts numbers....sorry....

 

John

Tha nks. I agree about Zimo decoders. but who's sound file are they, particularly the Class 5. It has a good sound.

[bike2steam]

But pity about the whistle ??

[coachmann]

But pity about the whistle ??

W h a t ?

[Mike Storey]

Hi there

 

I see no reason to ever stray from Zimo decoders in either 4 or 7mm modelling.  The Class 5 has the 644 but I try and stay with the 645.........

 

 

DSC01464.JPG

 

and the trusty sugar cube speaker......................

 

 

for 7mm  use the base enhanced  or the base reflex speakers available through either Digitrains or Youchoos.......

 

DSC03139.JPG

 

I hav`nt got their parts numbers....sorry....

 

John

 

For speakers, do not forget the new Earthmover (EM2) super bass speakers from DC Kits. Might be more appropriate for diesels, although the low gruff of steam working hard would benefit I think, but boy do they make a difference.

[John Tomlinson]

Horses for courses sums it all up really.

 

If you don't want it, don't use it.

 

But the comparisons made between DC and DCC are often emotionally driven, rather than factual. Wiring for DCC can become extremely complicated if you follow "best practice" recommendations, but many on here have shown they have ignored such advice for years with few problems - 2 wires around the layout with as few droppers you can get away with. Live frog wiring extra, but that is true of DC. If you add points and signals via DCC chips, it can be simplicity itself.

 

But I too am half-a-luddite, and still wire points and signals separately on DC supply with their own switches (or manual via rodding where I can), as I don't want my layout to become a virtual computer game. But it means I have a lot more wiring! Nonetheless, I use DCC for train operation, not just for simplified wiring and the removal of restrictive isolating sections and easy double-heading, but also for the sound, lights and hopefully diesel fumes one day. It adds to my enjoyment. So I pay.

You make a good point about "best practice" wiring.

 

I have been contemplating an experiment in DCC for part of my layout to then try DCC Sound for diesels. It is a largish continuous run double track mainline set up, fully wired for DC in the age old manner of sections that can be isolated, and has worked extremely well for years (sorry if that sounds conceited). However I watched the Right Track DVD by Nigel Burkin and hosted by Tony Wright. Very informative but somewhat terrifying - I apparently need feeds to each piece of track, and my points which rely on blade contact for current (quite successfully in DC) are a complete no-no!

 

I'm tempted to try anyway, if the Prodigy Advance package becomes available again, which I've seen on two friends layouts and feel comfortable with. If it doesn't work so well I could sell it or redeploy on a purpose-built 7mm scheme I have in mind.

 

However, the point of my comment is that it would really be nice to have an accepted view as to what wiring is really needed with DCC, at the moment the situation is like asking 50 economists for their views and getting 50 different answers!

 

John.

Edited May 2, 2017 by John Tomlinson

[Steven B]

Most, if not all of the "best practice" that's recommended for DCC applies to a DC layout too. Increase the number of track feeds and you'll get more reliable running. Don't rely on point blades to carry power and you'll get more reliable running. Increase the wire size running under your baseboard and you'll get more reliable running. DC or DCC it doesn't mater.

 

A well wired layout will work just as well controlled by DC as it will controlled using DCC.

 

There one major difference: common return wiring for multiple controllers doesn't apply. All DCC control signals are sent down the same pair of wires regardless of the number of controllers you're using. If your layout is big enough to warrant the use of circuit breakers then common return will cause problems - however, this is no different to a DC layout where common return is not used and both track feeds are switched between controllers.

 

There is nothing a DCC layout can do that a DC based layout can't be made to do given small enough section blocks and a bucket full of relays and switches.

 

What drew me to DCC was that it makes things like double heading, banking and parking locos in a depot more realistic as you're not restricted to fixed length switch-able sections of track. No longer do you need to have each section in a depot equal to the length of your longest loco; With DCC you can park a class 20 in between a class 40 and a 47 without inches of space between them and all without lots of extra switches for short section breaks.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B,

[Mike Storey]

You make a good point about "best practice" wiring.

 

I have been contemplating an experiment in DCC for part of my layout to then try DCC Sound for diesels. It is a largish continuous run double track mainline set up, fully wired for DC in the age old manner of sections that can be isolated, and has worked extremely well for years (sorry if that sounds conceited). However I watched the Right Track DVD by Nigel Burkin and hosted by Tony Wright. Very informative but somewhat terrifying - I apparently need feeds to each piece of track, and my points which rely on blade contact for current (quite successfully in DC) are a complete no-no!

 

I'm tempted to try anyway, if the Prodigy Advance package becomes available again, which I've seen on two friends layouts and feel comfortable with. If it doesn't work so well I could sell it or redeploy on a purpose-built 7mm scheme I have in mind.

 

However, the point of my comment is that it would really be nice to have an accepted view as to what wiring is really needed with DCC, at the moment the situation is like asking 50 economists for their views and getting 50 different answers!

 

John.

 

I regret John, that you will not get an "accepted" view! It is all about insurance. If you want the set up least likely for any problem to cause any widespread shutdown (or even burn out a decoder or two) then you go for the two bus circuits (one for track power, one for accessories) solution with droppers to every section of track, and any live frog point wired for change of polarity with associated isolating joiners, plus all the other stuff you might want to do with splitting the bus circuits for a large layout, not running the bus circuit as a loop, using boosters, using a number of gadgets that protect short circuits, automatically change polarity on reversing loops (or on point frogs) etc etc.

 

However, as said, many people on here report that they have not bothered with all that and have had few problems. However, yet others report they have had problems, especially with shorts. I am of the opinion that the more electronic complexity that is introduced, the harder it is to work out what has gone wrong when it does (although it is contrarily argued that less will go wrong if you add that complexity). Having built only one layout before on DCC, which was very simple and quite small, but with live frogs, I am no expert, but I had no problems with doing as little as I needed. Indeed my current DC/DCC test track, a loop with a siding, about 6'x4', has only two feeds, and runs just fine. But I am about to start a much larger layout and will probably have to do a lot more than that. I guess it is all about how much you trust yourself not to do something manually which might cause a problem, when a Rolls Royce set up would stop that problem.

 

I am sure you will get more expert opinion from others.

[bike2steam]

W h a t ?

Isn't it a chime whistle behind that chimney ??

[coachmann]

I can only speak for how I do DCC. When initially installed, the DCC was fed down wiring put in when I had DC. All I did was leave all the section switched switch on. I rely on the point blades making good contact so I'm at the lazy end of the spectrum when it comes to electronics.  However, the realization that locos went silent when points isolated sections made my wire up every section of track and insert beaks or insulating rail joiners to prevent current feeding back to the tail end of points. Basically it is all common-sense wiring.

[coachmann]

Isn't it a chime whistle behind that chimney ??

Yup, it's a chime whistle.  I see where you are coming from now.  

[Dagworth]

There is nothing a DCC layout can do that a DC based layout can't be made to do given small enough section blocks and a bucket full of relays and switches.

Non stop running around a reverse loop? Can't do it on DC as you have to stop to change the polarity.

 

Andi

[Dagworth]

Depends where the DC feed is Andi. If fixed in the loop itself, just switch the common section polarity while the train trundles through the loop.

that would then mean changing the polarity of the whole of the rest of the layout...

 

Andi

[APOLLO]

Ah but if your quick you can change both the loop DPDT & controller direction switches simultaneously. I do it often with no problems.

 

Brit15

Edited May 3, 2017 by APOLLO

[Chris M]

Non stop running around a reverse loop? Can't do it on DC as you have to stop to change the polarity.Andi

The best thing for that is BPRC as many a garden railway builder will tell you. You also need points that change automatically or a loco that is heavy enough to push the blades over.