bike2steam Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 (edited) DC for me, I'm not changing this lot, far too many loco's. I'll not knock DCC, or sound, both are wonderful innovations, but just not for me as I'm well too far down the DC route. Brit15 Likewise, I'm about to start building another layout, and I have too much good DC equipment to re-use rather than waste. Yeah I know, I'm a tight old git. Edited May 1, 2017 by bike2steam 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted May 1, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 1, 2017 Likewise, I'm about to start building another layout, and I have too much good DC equipment to re-use rather than waste. Yeah I know, I'm a tight old git. Nothing wrong with that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted May 1, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 1, 2017 (edited) It`s bank holiday Monday !...... time to wind up the minorities I totally agree with those of you with large layouts and multiple locos/diesels etc,that is a unique facet of railway modelling......... BUT! DCC is a fascinating face too............. 4mm RTR. You can`t do this with DC............ ( I trapped the front bogie wheel with the cylinder pipes !!!) So....... Sell all your 4mm stuff and move over to 7mm RTR....... you wont need so much stock or locos and the quality of manufacture is better..... Of course those out there that can....... KITS !!!!! DC............ Vs............. DCC.......... See ya.............. John Edited May 1, 2017 by ROSSPOP 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 I am in the process of building an (other)00-9 layout, which is planned to be analogue due to its simplicity, this will be the firs time I have used analogue for 20 years now! I have even purchased a new analogue power unit. However as the building continues and the wiring and switches associated with this starts to build up I am seriously considering abandoning my Analogue plan and using digital. Particularly as I have noted that when I did a quick test with a couple of my NG locos on the track laid so far, they performed better (ie slow speed) when I connected a digital system***** than with the analogue controller **** NOTE Being extremely careful to disconnect the analogue controller before connecting the Digital output they don't mix too well, as I discovered back in 1997 when I connected a Lenz system to a layout and forgot to remove the DC input!! Well further to the above .. and a lot of soul searching ( about 3 minutes actually) I though **D It , and decided to abandon the analogue plan and use digital, the track laying on the layout (00-9) which is in a 8 x 6 shed is only about 1/3 complete with a terminus so far completed it has just 4 points, but this morning wiring revisions have taken place which resulted in the removal of 6 section switches and asocociated cabling, and simply wiring round the dead sections. AND removing the shelf protruding from the baseboard which the controller and switch panels were sited on! This leaves me with a spare Morley Vectis twin controller and some switches Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 It`s bank holiday Monday !...... time to wind up the minorities I totally agree with those of you with large layouts and multiple locos/diesels etc,that is a unique facet of railway modelling......... BUT! DCC is a fascinating face too............. Very nice ROSSPOP. I am interested to know which sound decoders and speakers you used in the Bachmann Standard 5 and the MR 1F please. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 Well, I am fully committed now. I have just bought a (Taunton Controls) ZTC 611 (with a 622 hand throttle too) second hand but nearly new, from a chum of ours on here, and very, very nice it is too! It has all the knobs and levers I want.....and still does the whizzy DCC stuff. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris M Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 (edited) It`s bank holiday Monday !...... time to wind up the minorities I totally agree with those of you with large layouts and multiple locos/diesels etc,that is a unique facet of railway modelling......... BUT! DCC is a fascinating face too............. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivzg6OfZNsA 4mm RTR. You can`t do this with DC............ ( I trapped the front bogie wheel with the cylinder pipes !!!) So....... Sell all your 4mm stuff and move over to 7mm RTR....... you wont need so much stock or locos and the quality of manufacture is better..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGqkHW5VPCo Of course those out there that can....... KITS !!!!! DC............ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHjRHcWxLrg Vs............. DCC.......... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylO_Pd0pzj4 See ya.............. John Wired. The std 5 does 3 chuffs per revolution and the tank does 5. I have the same problem with my dc steamies sound . Edited May 1, 2017 by Chris M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris M Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 (edited) Ok this is G scale but I'm reasonably happy with the £49 mylocosound chip running on dc track power. It's from trying to adjust this that I got the bad habit of counting chuffs per revolution. It's best not to. I deliberately chose the incorrect whistle because it sounds better to my English ears. Edited May 1, 2017 by Chris M 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 Chuff synchro isn't accurate across the speed range without a cam. I did spot the Standard Five beat was dropping back slightly with each wheel revolution at starting speed but it settled down to 4-beats as it gathered speed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted May 1, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 1, 2017 Very nice ROSSPOP. I am interested to know which sound decoders and speakers you used in the Bachmann Standard 5 and the MR 1F please. Hi there I see no reason to ever stray from Zimo decoders in either 4 or 7mm modelling. The Class 5 has the 644 but I try and stay with the 645......... and the trusty sugar cube speaker...................... for 7mm use the base enhanced or the base reflex speakers available through either Digitrains or Youchoos....... I hav`nt got their parts numbers....sorry.... John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted May 1, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 1, 2017 Ok this is G scale but I'm reasonably happy with the £49 mylocosound chip running on dc track power. It's from trying to adjust this that I got the bad habit of counting chuffs per revolution. It's best not to. I deliberately chose the incorrect whistle because it sounds better to my English ears. very nice sound Chris....I would be happy with that and the cost !!!!!! John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 Hi there I see no reason to ever stray from Zimo decoders in either 4 or 7mm modelling. The Class 5 has the 644 but I try and stay with the 645......... DSC01464.JPG and the trusty sugar cube speaker...................... for 7mm use the base enhanced or the base reflex speakers available through either Digitrains or Youchoos....... DSC03139.JPG I hav`nt got their parts numbers....sorry.... John Tha nks. I agree about Zimo decoders. but who's sound file are they, particularly the Class 5. It has a good sound. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 But pity about the whistle ?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 But pity about the whistle ?? W h a t ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Hi there I see no reason to ever stray from Zimo decoders in either 4 or 7mm modelling. The Class 5 has the 644 but I try and stay with the 645......... DSC01464.JPG and the trusty sugar cube speaker...................... for 7mm use the base enhanced or the base reflex speakers available through either Digitrains or Youchoos....... DSC03139.JPG I hav`nt got their parts numbers....sorry.... John For speakers, do not forget the new Earthmover (EM2) super bass speakers from DC Kits. Might be more appropriate for diesels, although the low gruff of steam working hard would benefit I think, but boy do they make a difference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Tomlinson Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 (edited) Horses for courses sums it all up really. If you don't want it, don't use it. But the comparisons made between DC and DCC are often emotionally driven, rather than factual. Wiring for DCC can become extremely complicated if you follow "best practice" recommendations, but many on here have shown they have ignored such advice for years with few problems - 2 wires around the layout with as few droppers you can get away with. Live frog wiring extra, but that is true of DC. If you add points and signals via DCC chips, it can be simplicity itself. But I too am half-a-luddite, and still wire points and signals separately on DC supply with their own switches (or manual via rodding where I can), as I don't want my layout to become a virtual computer game. But it means I have a lot more wiring! Nonetheless, I use DCC for train operation, not just for simplified wiring and the removal of restrictive isolating sections and easy double-heading, but also for the sound, lights and hopefully diesel fumes one day. It adds to my enjoyment. So I pay. You make a good point about "best practice" wiring. I have been contemplating an experiment in DCC for part of my layout to then try DCC Sound for diesels. It is a largish continuous run double track mainline set up, fully wired for DC in the age old manner of sections that can be isolated, and has worked extremely well for years (sorry if that sounds conceited). However I watched the Right Track DVD by Nigel Burkin and hosted by Tony Wright. Very informative but somewhat terrifying - I apparently need feeds to each piece of track, and my points which rely on blade contact for current (quite successfully in DC) are a complete no-no! I'm tempted to try anyway, if the Prodigy Advance package becomes available again, which I've seen on two friends layouts and feel comfortable with. If it doesn't work so well I could sell it or redeploy on a purpose-built 7mm scheme I have in mind. However, the point of my comment is that it would really be nice to have an accepted view as to what wiring is really needed with DCC, at the moment the situation is like asking 50 economists for their views and getting 50 different answers! John. Edited May 2, 2017 by John Tomlinson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted May 2, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 2, 2017 Most, if not all of the "best practice" that's recommended for DCC applies to a DC layout too. Increase the number of track feeds and you'll get more reliable running. Don't rely on point blades to carry power and you'll get more reliable running. Increase the wire size running under your baseboard and you'll get more reliable running. DC or DCC it doesn't mater. A well wired layout will work just as well controlled by DC as it will controlled using DCC. There one major difference: common return wiring for multiple controllers doesn't apply. All DCC control signals are sent down the same pair of wires regardless of the number of controllers you're using. If your layout is big enough to warrant the use of circuit breakers then common return will cause problems - however, this is no different to a DC layout where common return is not used and both track feeds are switched between controllers. There is nothing a DCC layout can do that a DC based layout can't be made to do given small enough section blocks and a bucket full of relays and switches. What drew me to DCC was that it makes things like double heading, banking and parking locos in a depot more realistic as you're not restricted to fixed length switch-able sections of track. No longer do you need to have each section in a depot equal to the length of your longest loco; With DCC you can park a class 20 in between a class 40 and a 47 without inches of space between them and all without lots of extra switches for short section breaks. Happy modelling. Steven B, 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 You make a good point about "best practice" wiring. I have been contemplating an experiment in DCC for part of my layout to then try DCC Sound for diesels. It is a largish continuous run double track mainline set up, fully wired for DC in the age old manner of sections that can be isolated, and has worked extremely well for years (sorry if that sounds conceited). However I watched the Right Track DVD by Nigel Burkin and hosted by Tony Wright. Very informative but somewhat terrifying - I apparently need feeds to each piece of track, and my points which rely on blade contact for current (quite successfully in DC) are a complete no-no! I'm tempted to try anyway, if the Prodigy Advance package becomes available again, which I've seen on two friends layouts and feel comfortable with. If it doesn't work so well I could sell it or redeploy on a purpose-built 7mm scheme I have in mind. However, the point of my comment is that it would really be nice to have an accepted view as to what wiring is really needed with DCC, at the moment the situation is like asking 50 economists for their views and getting 50 different answers! John. I regret John, that you will not get an "accepted" view! It is all about insurance. If you want the set up least likely for any problem to cause any widespread shutdown (or even burn out a decoder or two) then you go for the two bus circuits (one for track power, one for accessories) solution with droppers to every section of track, and any live frog point wired for change of polarity with associated isolating joiners, plus all the other stuff you might want to do with splitting the bus circuits for a large layout, not running the bus circuit as a loop, using boosters, using a number of gadgets that protect short circuits, automatically change polarity on reversing loops (or on point frogs) etc etc. However, as said, many people on here report that they have not bothered with all that and have had few problems. However, yet others report they have had problems, especially with shorts. I am of the opinion that the more electronic complexity that is introduced, the harder it is to work out what has gone wrong when it does (although it is contrarily argued that less will go wrong if you add that complexity). Having built only one layout before on DCC, which was very simple and quite small, but with live frogs, I am no expert, but I had no problems with doing as little as I needed. Indeed my current DC/DCC test track, a loop with a siding, about 6'x4', has only two feeds, and runs just fine. But I am about to start a much larger layout and will probably have to do a lot more than that. I guess it is all about how much you trust yourself not to do something manually which might cause a problem, when a Rolls Royce set up would stop that problem. I am sure you will get more expert opinion from others. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 W h a t ? Isn't it a chime whistle behind that chimney ?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 I can only speak for how I do DCC. When initially installed, the DCC was fed down wiring put in when I had DC. All I did was leave all the section switched switch on. I rely on the point blades making good contact so I'm at the lazy end of the spectrum when it comes to electronics. However, the realization that locos went silent when points isolated sections made my wire up every section of track and insert beaks or insulating rail joiners to prevent current feeding back to the tail end of points. Basically it is all common-sense wiring. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Isn't it a chime whistle behind that chimney ?? Yup, it's a chime whistle. I see where you are coming from now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted May 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 3, 2017 There is nothing a DCC layout can do that a DC based layout can't be made to do given small enough section blocks and a bucket full of relays and switches.Non stop running around a reverse loop? Can't do it on DC as you have to stop to change the polarity. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted May 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 3, 2017 Depends where the DC feed is Andi. If fixed in the loop itself, just switch the common section polarity while the train trundles through the loop.that would then mean changing the polarity of the whole of the rest of the layout... Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 (edited) Ah but if your quick you can change both the loop DPDT & controller direction switches simultaneously. I do it often with no problems. Brit15 Edited May 3, 2017 by APOLLO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris M Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Non stop running around a reverse loop? Can't do it on DC as you have to stop to change the polarity.Andi The best thing for that is BPRC as many a garden railway builder will tell you. You also need points that change automatically or a loco that is heavy enough to push the blades over. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now