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Ownership of LSWR T3 no. 563 transfered to Swanage Railway


Paul.Uni
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Well at least it's in it's 'home' area where it's more appreciated, and in one of the warmest/driest areas of the UK ( although ya wouldn't think so with the weather as it's been over the last week or so !!) :sungum:

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I don't doubt the Swanage railway have good intent, but this loco should have gone to a railway that could house it.

Is there a railway that has unused undercover storage space? Every preservation site I have ever visited has plenty of stuff slowly rotting outside because they haven't got sufficient covered storage.

 

Although it doesn't feel right I can accept that the NRM is acting sensibly in disposing of a small number of assets that are unlikely to see much use in the foreseeable future. This will allow scarce resources to be concentrated on the remaining collection.

 

Maybe all preservation societies should take a good look at their assets and dispose of stuff which is currently an eyesore and in all honesty will end up as no more than a heap of rust and or rotted wood at some point in the future. At least theT3 is a star in the eyes of the Swanage railway whereas under NRM ownership it was not. That can only be good for its long term future.

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Maybe all preservation societies should take a good look at their assets and dispose of stuff which is currently an eyesore and in all honesty will end up as no more than a heap of rust and or rotted wood at some point in the future.

*All those diesels for a start... :)

 

Glad to see that the midland inspection saloon has gone to a midland railway based preserved line with safe undercover storage. Did nobody else want it or did nobody else get told about it?

 

* whilst I'm not being entirely serious about getting rid of preserved diesels, given limited resources and the fact that it is easier to buy one than restore one, resulting in large numbers of some classes (20 or 30 of most classes which survived into the 1990s) preserved it would make sense to have some rationalisation with the remainders used for parts - in what future will there be a demand for 40 or so operating class 37s on preserved railways?

And yes, I'd say the same for steam locos where we have more than a couple of the same class if they're unrestored and have little or no hope. That isn't to denigrate the efforts of those who have saved/restored locos, but there's far greater historic significance in something unique like the T3 than there is in having 18 Black fives I'm afraid, hence why it is important that the national collection is kept as such rather than being slyly got rid of. The various Great Western new build efforts seem to have come to this conclusion. Perhaps this can of worms deserves it's own thread though.

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Does this locomotive's lack of BR running preclude a model of it, could help towards restoration though in reality how many units would sell and how much that would actually raise is another thing.

Well, if someone made a model of her, I would certainly buy one.  I think she is a beautiful loco.  Might have to modify history a bit more, so that the LSWR built a branch to Fairford!

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*All those diesels for a start... :)

 

Glad to see that the midland inspection saloon has gone to a midland railway based preserved line with safe undercover storage. Did nobody else want it or did nobody else get told about it?

 

* whilst I'm not being entirely serious about getting rid of preserved diesels, given limited resources and the fact that it is easier to buy one than restore one, resulting in large numbers of some classes (20 or 30 of most classes which survived into the 1990s) preserved it would make sense to have some rationalisation with the remainders used for parts - in what future will there be a demand for 40 or so operating class 37s on preserved railways?

And yes, I'd say the same for steam locos where we have more than a couple of the same class if they're unrestored and have little or no hope. That isn't to denigrate the efforts of those who have saved/restored locos, but there's far greater historic significance in something unique like the T3 than there is in having 18 Black fives I'm afraid, hence why it is important that the national collection is kept as such rather than being slyly got rid of. The various Great Western new build efforts seem to have come to this conclusion. Perhaps this can of worms deserves it's own thread though.

The heritage railways are really about offering an experience to their visitors. Reliability, economy of operation and adequate performance for the job in hand are their primary concerns. Whether a loco is unique or one of a dozen survivors is mainly of interest to we enthusiasts, who actually form a minority of their clientele. Indeed, a common type has the advantage in that various owners can commission spare parts collectively, generating economies of scale (qv. Terrier boilers and lots of Bulleid bits). I am of the opinion, though, that relatively few of the steam locos remaining in unrestored condition at this late stage are likely to run again. Even those that do will inevitably include an increasing proportion of new build set against pure restoration.  

 

Diesels are perhaps slightly different. By definition their would-be restorers are probably a bit younger on average but some of the technical issues can be more challenging than for steam. The difficulty and expense of obtaining replacement heavy-duty electrical parts is a critical factor that will eventually lead to some locos being cannibalised to keep others operational.

 

Classes where a relatively high proportion of the number built have been "saved" will be most vulnerable. Whilst I doubt that very many will be cut-up, I think it likely that some will become complete but static exhibits having lost functional parts in exchange for non-working equivalents from operational locos. It's not hard to work out the most obvious potential victims which, IMHO, will be the Class 50s and the Deltics. These (and the 47s) are far more powerful than the heritage railways need so will rely more on main-line outings as a source of income. 

 

Smaller locos, from fairly numerous classes, are more likely to be retained on purely economic grounds, cheaper to maintain, cheaper to run and sufficiently powerful for the job in hand. A Type 2 or 3 is, in most instances, more than adequate, as are pairs of class 20s. This is already happening - large players like the WSR generally confine appearances of their biggest diesels to special occasions.

 

All this will "find its own level" in time in line with changing requirements, but it is unknowable at this stage, what environmental restrictions might be imposed on operating preserved locos in the future. 

 

John

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Evening all, I very rarely mix business with pleasure here, but a couple of things needed my comment.

 

I shall not enter into detailed discussion here, but the Science Museum instituted its Board of Survey disposal procedure in 1913, and the development of that process has been followed to the letter in the recent set of rail vehicle transfers. Nothing was entered into lightly, nothing was in danger of being scrapped. Museums do this all the time, whether it is art, buses or buttons.

 

The recent process has been scrutinised by the Museums Association Ethics Committee and upheld as right and proper. We have however taken concerns from reactions on board and if there are future disposals - none currently planned - we will act differently in terms of publicising the process.

 

The Midland Railway Officers' saloon was offered to a number of established heritage railways, including those with a Midland leaning. All of them turned it down, all with heavy hearts. Willie Robson at Chain Bridge is investing in the coach and restoring it, albeit for static display.

 

If you really want to know about more details of how the NRM ticks and the work we do, please get in touch and come to see me in York or Shildon. I don't bite and would be happy to explain things further over a cup of tea.

 

Anthony Coulls

Senior Curator of Rail Transport & Technology

National Railway Museum

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Evening all, I very rarely mix business with pleasure here, but a couple of things needed my comment.

 

I shall not enter into detailed discussion here, but the Science Museum instituted its Board of Survey disposal procedure in 1913, and the development of that process has been followed to the letter in the recent set of rail vehicle transfers. Nothing was entered into lightly, nothing was in danger of being scrapped. Museums do this all the time, whether it is art, buses or buttons.

 

The recent process has been scrutinised by the Museums Association Ethics Committee and upheld as right and proper. We have however taken concerns from reactions on board and if there are future disposals - none currently planned - we will act differently in terms of publicising the process.

 

The Midland Railway Officers' saloon was offered to a number of established heritage railways, including those with a Midland leaning. All of them turned it down, all with heavy hearts. Willie Robson at Chain Bridge is investing in the coach and restoring it, albeit for static display.

 

If you really want to know about more details of how the NRM ticks and the work we do, please get in touch and come to see me in York or Shildon. I don't bite and would be happy to explain things further over a cup of tea.

 

Anthony Coulls

Senior Curator of Rail Transport & Technology

National Railway Museum

I have supported the Swanage Railway Project for the last 45 years and I will be visiting York from Sunday 1st to Friday 6th October with the Purbeck Association of the National Trust. The Swanage Railway has always had problems with obtaining planning permission to get covered accommodation and to get enough money to pay for it. The Railway lost the opportunity to run Pullman cars because of the lack of covered accommodation and I think the lack of covered accommodation was a factor in loosing the T9. I think that the acquisition of the T3 may make the Swanage Railway strive harder to get some covered accommodation and it may make Swanage Town Council and the planning authority aware of the national importance of preserving heritage locomotives and rolling stock. In the past I think that the balance has been too much in favour of residents who do not want a carriage or locomotive shed in their back yards and in favour of conservationists who do not want to see an area of special scientific interest disturbed. I was very impressed with the M7 and the LSWR coaches in York Museum and with the detailed information your staff provided. Perhaps a model of the T3 and some LSWR coaches could be a project for the National Railway Museum together with Bachmann or Hornby. 

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Evening all, I very rarely mix business with pleasure here, but a couple of things needed my comment.

 

I shall not enter into detailed discussion here, but the Science Museum instituted its Board of Survey disposal procedure in 1913, and the development of that process has been followed to the letter in the recent set of rail vehicle transfers. Nothing was entered into lightly, nothing was in danger of being scrapped. Museums do this all the time, whether it is art, buses or buttons.

 

The recent process has been scrutinised by the Museums Association Ethics Committee and upheld as right and proper. We have however taken concerns from reactions on board and if there are future disposals - none currently planned - we will act differently in terms of publicising the process.

 

The Midland Railway Officers' saloon was offered to a number of established heritage railways, including those with a Midland leaning. All of them turned it down, all with heavy hearts. Willie Robson at Chain Bridge is investing in the coach and restoring it, albeit for static display.

 

If you really want to know about more details of how the NRM ticks and the work we do, please get in touch and come to see me in York or Shildon. I don't bite and would be happy to explain things further over a cup of tea.

 

Anthony Coulls

Senior Curator of Rail Transport & Technology

National Railway Museum

 

Anthony,

According to the recent Steam Beano interview with your main man, it would appear one additional steam locomotive disposal is planned. Is that now no longer the case?

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"The Midland Railway Officers' saloon was offered to a number of established heritage railways, including those with a Midland leaning. All of them turned it down, all with heavy hearts. Willie Robson at Chain Bridge is investing in the coach and restoring it, albeit for static display."

 

Regrettable but understandable given its condition. The Chain Bridge Honey Farm has an excellent tractor collection and good honey too. Hopefully they will be able to restore and maintain this historic MR saloon which is the only surviving steam railcar [demotored] other than GWR. Maybe they will adapt it as their cafe which when I visited was in a double deck bus. Not far from the old Norham Station museum, now closed. But surprising the de-accessioning was not better known.

 

Dava

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"The Midland Railway Officers' saloon was offered to a number of established heritage railways, including those with a Midland leaning. All of them turned it down, all with heavy hearts. Willie Robson at Chain Bridge is investing in the coach and restoring it, albeit for static display."

 

Regrettable but understandable given its condition. The Chain Bridge Honey Farm has an excellent tractor collection and good honey too. Hopefully they will be able to restore and maintain this historic MR saloon which is the only surviving steam railcar [demotored] other than GWR. Maybe they will adapt it as their cafe which when I visited was in a double deck bus. Not far from the old Norham Station museum, now closed. But surprising the de-accessioning was not better known.

 

Dava

 

Regarding steam railmotors, is there not a GNSR example preserved at Ferryhill?

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Evening all, I very rarely mix business with pleasure here, but a couple of things needed my comment.

 

I shall not enter into detailed discussion here, but the Science Museum instituted its Board of Survey disposal procedure in 1913, and the development of that process has been followed to the letter in the recent set of rail vehicle transfers. Nothing was entered into lightly, nothing was in danger of being scrapped. Museums do this all the time, whether it is art, buses or buttons.

 

The recent process has been scrutinised by the Museums Association Ethics Committee and upheld as right and proper. We have however taken concerns from reactions on board and if there are future disposals - none currently planned - we will act differently in terms of publicising the process.

 

The Midland Railway Officers' saloon was offered to a number of established heritage railways, including those with a Midland leaning. All of them turned it down, all with heavy hearts. Willie Robson at Chain Bridge is investing in the coach and restoring it, albeit for static display.

 

If you really want to know about more details of how the NRM ticks and the work we do, please get in touch and come to see me in York or Shildon. I don't bite and would be happy to explain things further over a cup of tea.

 

Anthony Coulls

Senior Curator of Rail Transport & Technology

National Railway Museum

Thanks Anthony, such is life in modern Britain, no matter what anyone decides there's always someone that will voice disapproval.

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Anthony,

According to the recent Steam Beano interview with your main man, it would appear one additional steam locomotive disposal is planned. Is that now no longer the case?

This one is still subject to confirmation - it's not an addtional one, it's part of the survey that saw the T3 and other vehicles find new homes. Once the details are confirmed, a press release will go out.

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Perhaps a model of the T3 and some LSWR coaches could be a project for the National Railway Museum together with Bachmann or Hornby.

 

OR Farish, Dapol, Union Mills, failing the RTR market maybe a kit maker, 3D printing could be a possibility.

 

LSWR coaches are already available in kit form, so why not the T3

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Does this locomotive's lack of BR running preclude a model of it, could help towards restoration though in reality how many units would sell and how much that would actually raise is another thing.

It could, without too much reality stretching, be run in LSWR colours post 1948 though.

Probably a better chance if it were still actually an NRM loco though, they have a bigger reach than the Swanage railway I would imagine...

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'Steam the T3 and I'm sure it'll really draw attention'

 

I've said it before, pure fantasy, it's not going to happen. Not without a new firebox at least. Look at the struggle to get the J21 restored,which will happen eventually.

 

Dava

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Well, if someone made a model of her, I would certainly buy one.  I think she is a beautiful loco.  Might have to modify history a bit more, so that the LSWR built a branch to Fairford!

I would definitely buy more than one. It's one of my all time favourites. Would love to see it modelled in LSWR and Southern livery. And all the better if a rake of LSWR coaches were produced to go with it.

 

Cheers,

  Chris

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Thanks Anthony, such is life in modern Britain, no matter what anyone decides there's always someone that will voice disapproval.

Heaven forbid that members of the public have an opinion when a publicly owned asset (ie. something we all co-owned) is given to a private organisation without good reason or warning and haven't currently got adequate facilities to conserve it.

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Apologies if this question has been answered or dealt with before. But why couldnt the engine have gone onto a long-term (or indeed permanent) loan to the Swanage Railway? That way, it could free up space at York, be a visible presence elsewhere in the country, and if (God forbid) anything went wrong, it would still be safe for the Nation? What does a full disposal give that a permanent loan would not?

 

If that had been the case (especially if it was with a covenant about covered accommodation) I feel that many of the objections would not have happened, and indeed the move would have been much more widely welcomed. 

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its not an insurmountable problem, I expect it would need a new boiler too.

However these things have and can still be made.

 

it's easy to point to headliners like 60163 and 5551 with new boilers, several well known preserved locos have had major repairs that have replaced substantial boiler/firebox parts.. 80097, 45428 and 34027 come to mind, recently at the Mid Hants I got to see major surgery replacing large sections of the s15's firebox under overhaul there... that's the success of preservation.

 

There's not many express Victorian passenger locos like the T3 outside public ownership in the U.K., here's chance to get one running, which makes this quite a proposition.

 

The only issue is £, I'd imagine the T3 would have a very compelling case to be a candidate for lottery cash.

 

It would probably be cheaper to start from scratch and build a replica rather than destroy a beautiful, genuine historic item which would likely require a lot more than just a new boiler. Trigger's broom, anyone? 

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