Ownership of LSWR T3 no. 563 transfered to Swanage Railway

[phil-b259]

Maybe the hefty admission charge and the lack of stalls selling tat are connected, in which case maybe that is a hint for the Science Museum museums?

 

Correct - However like all other 'National' museums they are effectively a branch of Government - and the DCMS has made it clear their policy of access being fee to ALL 'national' museums will be staying as it allows them to look good in the political arena. Please remember they haven't always been free - during the late 80s and early 90s the then Conservative administration was quite keen on charging as it allowed cuts to be made to the relevant Whitehall's departments budgets.

 

Put it this way if the DCMS allowed the NRM (and indeed other museums to charge) then I'm sure the Labour party wouldn't hesitate to claim this was another example of the 'elites' trying to exclude 'low income citizens from experiencing the nations cultural heritage.

Edited April 1, 2017 by phil-b259

[Horsetan]

I agree except for the living in a recession bit. ....

Alternative facts?

[phil-b259]

Alternative facts?

 

Nope - a recession is officially described by Governments an internation bodies like the IMF as negative economic growth / contraction in the economy for 3 or more consecutive quarters. The statistics actually show the UK economy has been growing or alternatively flat lining for quite a while now - so no, we are not in a recession at present.

 

What is true is that various movements on the currency markets etc are making stuff more expensive and thus pushing up inflation thus squeezing many peoples budgets thus making it feel like we have returned to recession, when statistically we have not.

[jjb1970]

Alternative facts?

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/ihyq/qna

[bbishop]

So when I set off to the CRMA agm in Stevenage, there was a loco, tender and coach plinthed to the west of Kings Cross. The tender looked "Adams". An exploration this afternoon persuades me that it is a boilerless T3, under a tarpaulin. Thoughts, anyone?

 

Bill

[phil-b259]

So when I set off to the CRMA agm in Stevenage, there was a loco, tender and coach plinthed to the west of Kings Cross. The tender looked "Adams". An exploration this afternoon persuades me that it is a boilerless T3, under a tarpaulin. Thoughts, anyone?

 

Bill

 

Given the last home of this loco was the "Railway Children" stage show held at a venue in the Kings Cross regeneration area, yup thats the T3 alright.

 

Presumably it will be on the move from there to Swanage pretty quickly - if for no other reason than to get it out of the way.

[Steamport Southport]

Again. What's with all the monetary posts?

 

The funding isn't relevant. If it was then why did the NRM spend £6.8 million on Flying Dustbin.

 

So when I set off to the CRMA agm in Stevenage, there was a loco, tender and coach plinthed to the west of Kings Cross. The tender looked "Adams". An exploration this afternoon persuades me that it is a boilerless T3, under a tarpaulin. Thoughts, anyone?

Bill

 

 

 

Not boilerless. In fact it's apparently in pretty good condition and far from being a "rusty heap".

 

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/135018260@N04/33415900085/

 

 

 

Jason

[jjb1970]

Again. What's with all the monetary posts?

 

The funding isn't relevant. If it was then why did the NRM spend £6.8 million on Flying Dustbin.

 

 

 

 

Not boilerless. In fact it's apparently in pretty good condition and far from being a "rusty heap".

 

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/135018260@N04/33415900085/

 

 

 

Jason

 

Maybe another connection there. Although this may be offset by the marketing and merchandise potential of the Flying Scotsman for NRM as it is probably the only train most visitors to the museum have ever heard of. Play their cards right and the millions spent restoring it may be seen as a good investment in the future.

[Steamport Southport]

Maybe another connection there. Although this may be offset by the marketing and merchandise potential of the Flying Scotsman for NRM as it is probably the only train most visitors to the museum have ever heard of. Play their cards right and the millions spent restoring it may be seen as a good investment in the future.

 

 

Not a good investment if you give away the historical artefacts that the money generated is supposed to be supporting.

 

 

Jason

[Ian J.]

As this seems to be genuine, this statement from the NRM seems to be somewhat at odds with reality:

 

“The Swanage Railway has an outstanding record for preserving and displaying items, something which is paramount to the museum, allowing the public to appreciate the locomotive and attract a new audience to Swanage on a railway steeped in T3 history.”

 

With all due respect to the efforts of the Swanage Railway's staff and volunteers who, like all such people, do put in extraordinary amounts of effort to run their railway, the railway itself does not have an 'outstanding record for preserving and displaying items'. It was this quote that made me hope it was an April Fools joke.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Ian J.

[jjb1970]

Not a good investment if you give away the historical artefacts that the money generated is supposed to be supporting.

 

 

Jason

 

If you squander money you earn, that has nothing to do with the wisdom (or otherwise) displayed in making that money in the first place.

 

Finance may be boring to some and seen as irrelevant in a discussion about museums and preservation but it is crucial to the viability of museums. If the money isn't there to preserve a collection and do the educational outreach then the quality of the collection is irrelevant. If a museum is financially robust then we may not like the muck and tat, food concessions and commercialism etc but it means that the museum can continue to operate and fund its objectives.

[pete_mcfarlane]

So when I set off to the CRMA agm in Stevenage, there was a loco, tender and coach plinthed to the west of Kings Cross. The tender looked "Adams". An exploration this afternoon persuades me that it is a boilerless T3, under a tarpaulin. Thoughts, anyone?

 

Bill

That suggests that the boiler has gone off to be examined, and the T3 is to be 'restored'. 

[chris p bacon]

That suggests that the boiler has gone off to be examined, and the T3 is to be 'restored'. 

The photo linked above shows the locomotive under tarpaulins and complete on the 11th March so I doubt it has been, Kings Cross wouldn't be the place to strip it anyway.

[Ian J.]

The boiler on the T3 is pretty low, so under the tarp it's possible to think it might not be there, but it is.

[Dava]

We are living in a recession. There is no money coming in. HM Treasury is tightening its grip on all Govt Departments. The Science Museum has to balance its budget. Getting rid of obscure artefacts and rusty heaps - which rather less than 10% of the public care about - makes sense, as does running coffee stalls instead of historic exhibits.

We may weep, but this is the world in 2017.

I cannot agree with the facile comment that the T3 is either an obscure artefact or rusty heap, though it may end up as one if displayed outside at Swanage. The NRM is responsible and funded for the conservation & display of its collection. The T3 is 125 years old and both unique and historic in its way. Museums have to educate, entertain and make money as well as conserving the collection but that does not explain why it's being given away. If they don't educate and display then in future no-one will care.

 

Dava

[dibber25]

If money is the issue, why not put this and other artefacts up for sale? If space is the issue, why not place the locomotive on loan? Giving it away is simply wasting an asset. Giving it to a working preserved railway is actually putting it at risk. It's not obscure, It's one of a collection of Edwardian 4-4-0s of different designs, which is now a collection with one piece missing. It's certainly not rusty. It was kept in a secure covered site at King's Cross, where it has been for the past couple of years. Before that it was in Toronto under cover or displayed on the John Street turntable, depending on the weather, with an NRM steward in attendance. Sadly, the NRM did nothing then to publicise or explain or interpret it to a North American audience. I heard a woman ask her husband what LSWR stood for. His reply was "London Scotland and Wales Railway". York is the Museum of Missed Opportunities. (CJL)

Edited April 2, 2017 by dibber25

[jjb1970]

Government finances exist in a different reality from normal finances. Having worked with NHS clients on energy projects and worked extensively for the MoD and oter navies on warship procurement and read too many NAO (and foreign equivalent reports) it wouldn't surprise me if the administrative costs of selling faberge eggs at market value ended up outweighing the money made.

[jjb1970]

This may not be the right thread, but a question raised by this subject is to ask what is historically significant? I mean genuinely significant as opposed to being of interest to enthusiasts with an interest in the subject. You can look at this in terms of two extremes, one extreme is that everything effects the planet in some way so is significant, the other extreme is that in the greater scheme of things real changes are normally the result of macro-factors and that very few things at lower levels is especially significant. The truth is somewhere in between. Time and time again in railway clubs and when talking to friends I've heard sorrowful conversations about such and such diesel or electric (most of my rail enthusiast friends are post-steam enthusiasts) being lost to preservation and what a significant artefact it was while I think to myself it was just another serial produced diesel electric that had no novel technologies, wasn't an especially great example of engineering, looked just like other diesels to most people and anyway there's already several of the things preserved. The same can be said of steam locomotives, how many of them are of genuine historical significance? Not many really. The steam locomotive is of immense historical significance but that of individual locomotives with a few exceptions is not particularly great. I've long felt that the current levels of preservation are not sustainable and that there'll be a shake out, but that's just me. The real historical significance of engineered artefacts lies in the intellectual property so to speak, not the physical artefact. HMS Dreadnought was a historically significant ship and went to the breakers but we don't need to go and look at a manicured relic to understand and study the technical, tactical and societal significance of the Dreadnought battleship. I'm not speaking against museums, and I love going to museums, but I do think the concept of "historical significance" is overused and abused. And that museums are more entertainment than educational, the real high brow stuff is in archives. However, these are just my opinions and I'm probably in a minority of one here.

[adb968008]

Given the massive redevelopment of some stations over the years, putting some locos on display at places like York, KX, a revitalised Euston etc might be a nice thing to do, certainly 7819 at Swindon looks great in its mall setting. There's enough space on or even above Waterloos concourse, or the Eurostar area.

 

 

What's probably more concerning is that a number of groups have suggested that come the day they can't look after their steads, that the NRM would be offered their engines... guess they can't rely on having them accepted as a gift could cause concern for the locomotives well being in the long term future.

 

My count makes it 4 engines passed on to date, T3, NSR tank and the class 50 / 84.

 

I wonder if D5500/D6700 and D200 are safe, there is a case for duplication between 4003/4073 and 6000 too.

 

I do think the NRM missed a trick in letting the Turkish 8F go to Israel, there was a real war time / UK heavy freight / international gap missed.

 

What's odd is that the NRM actually has claim on two class 91's at some point, 91111 and 91131, as well as 2x full HST sets, both Class 139 Parry people movers and a 142/150/2 and 159.

Edited April 2, 2017 by adb968008

[stewartingram]

Again, catching up on reading my mags, in the latest Railway Magazine I note that Quanton Road is the new home for LNWR 3020 Cornwall. I have no idea if this is a lon or a gift though, does anyone know?

 

Stewart

[Paul.Uni]

Again, catching up on reading my mags, in the latest Railway Magazine I note that Quanton Road is the new home for LNWR 3020 Cornwall. I have no idea if this is a lon or a gift though, does anyone know?

 

Stewart

On loan for at least two years

 

What's odd is that the NRM actually has claim on two class 91's at some point, 91111 and 91131, as well as 2x full HST sets, both Class 139 Parry people movers and a 142/150/2 and 159.

I believe that they are on a list for preservation, but that does not mean that the NRM has to take them.

[Dan Griffin]

On loan for at least two years

 

I believe that they are on a list for preservation, but that does not mean that the NRM has to take them.

The NRM has claimed 91111, due to its livery! which IMHO is absurd as they have sacrificed 91031(131), which is the speed record holding loco.

 

Lets not also forget the other 'forgotten' NRM claimed loco, which is currently languishing out of use, open to vandalism and covered in graffiti in France/Spain (delete as appropriate) 58050. what genuine future does this have with the NRM? If finances for the science museum group are tight, I very much doub they'll begin to stretch to cover any sort of cost of bringing that bone home.

[G-BOAF]

91031 is listed as it was the last express passenger locomotive built for BR, as well as holding the record for the fastest revenue earning train (I think). On its build grounds alone, it is up there in significance with Evening Star, and should be preserved. Lets hope this trumps a coat of vinal on another class member...

[The Stationmaster]

So when I set off to the CRMA agm in Stevenage, there was a loco, tender and coach plinthed to the west of Kings Cross. The tender looked "Adams". An exploration this afternoon persuades me that it is a boilerless T3, under a tarpaulin. Thoughts, anyone?

 

Bill

 

It was hiding there last week I noticed while enroute to ally Pally but I could only see the (sheeted) tender.

[Dan Griffin]

91031 is listed as it was the last express passenger locomotive built for BR, as well as holding the record for the fastest revenue earning train (I think). On its build grounds alone, it is up there in significance with Evening Star, and should be preserved. Lets hope this trumps a coat of vinal on another class member...

 

I knew that is was listed but im 99% certain that when the 'for the fallen' livery was revealed, im sure I read in one of the railway mags that the museum had swapped which 91 it had selected.