Third-Rail EMU Photos

[Peter Kazmierczak]

4 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

442413, I believe, off to meet the baked-bean tin maker   

 

In other news the recent major power supply problem at Clapham Junction yard caused by a series of power surges has resulted in unusual workings.  Yesterday several Waterloo - Cobham - Guildford "New Line" trains were formed of a 5-car class 444; today several trips to Chessington South were formed of a pair of 450s.  I'm sure there were others as well.  Any photos appreciated.  

 Actually 73141 + 2420 + 73201 coming to collect 2414 to take to Wolverton.

[Gwiwer]

1 minute ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

 Actually 73141 + 2420 + 73201 coming to collect 2414 to take to Wolverton.

2413 also left.  

[Peter Kazmierczak]

4 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

2413 also left.  

On Monday 5th.

[adb968008]

How many are left at Bournemouth now ?

 

What becomes of Bournemouth depot & its 73 afterwards ?

Edited July 8, 2021 by adb968008

[Peter Kazmierczak]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

How many are left at Bournemouth now ?

I think just two now; 2418 and 2422. Difficult trying to keep up...

[Peter Kazmierczak]

458s on the horizon; two have already visited for a brief spell. Plus all the usual 444s and 450s stabled here.

[adb968008]

2 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

458s on the horizon; two have already visited for a brief spell. Plus all the usual 444s and 450s stabled here.

I’d take 442 over a 458 anyday.

[Southernman46]

What's the plan for the 458's ............................... ?

[John M Upton]

Reduced back to four car (the fifth cars will most likely be scrapped, another colossal waste of money) and used on the Waterloo/Poole/Weymouth expresses.

[DY444]

49 minutes ago, Southernman46 said:

What's the plan for the 458's ............................... ?

 

31 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Reduced back to four car (the fifth cars will most likely be scrapped, another colossal waste of money) and used on the Waterloo/Poole/Weymouth expresses.

 

Indeed.  Cabs aside basically undoing everything that was done to convert from 4 to 5 cars and then re-working the interiors to something supposedly more suitable for longer distance duties.  28 units being done, removed 5th cars and the other 8 units probably headed the same way as the 442s.

Edited July 9, 2021 by DY444

[Southernman46]

Presumably the Readings go fully 450 as a result ?

[DY444]

23 minutes ago, Southernman46 said:

Presumably the Readings go fully 450 as a result ?

 

Not sure.  Either that or 701s.

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

Not sure.  Either that or 701s.

I think 701s is the plan - which is why 1st class fares were discontinued on the route IIRC as 701s are standard class only.

[Gwiwer]

The 701s will enter traffic first on thr Reading line releasing 458s. Those will revert to four-car units but reconfigured for main line use and 100mph running. They will then go to the Portsmouth Direct route. 
 

The 701s will then start to replace the 455/456 fleet across the suburban network and are expected to have duties to Alton and Basingstoke despite being standard class only. 
 

The 707s go to South Eastern. Another duty has reverted to 455 this week as one of the four Shepperton duties has lost its 707s. 
 

The 455/456 fleet are expected to go for scrap despite having recently been retractioned and they are currently receiving new bogies.  Some may transfer to Southern to replace their largely-original 455s but this has not been confirmed.  
 

The full fleet of 444s will be available for Bournemouth line duty meaning all trains can be 10-car (5-car to Poole and Weymouth due to power supply limitations). 

 

This appears to leave a large surplus of 450s. Their Hounslow, Reading and Weybridge duties convert to 701s. Their fast Portsmouth duties are replaced by 458s (apparently to be class 458/4) leaving them with Alton, Basingstoke, slow direct and “via Botley” Portsmouth trsins and local Hampshire duties which do not require 127 units even if all trains which could be are run as 12-car. Hampshire locals can only be 4-car. 
 

What will be the future for that fleet?  Watch this space. 

[Ncarter2]

It will be interesting to see what is done to the 458’s traction wise. They were well known for not being suited to sustained 100mph running. 

[John M Upton]

455's to Southern, either to replace the native 455's or the 313's is a rumour that often does the rounds.  If I were a betting man, it would be the SWR 455's to Southern Metro and then the best of the existing Southern 455's off down the coast for another ten years retirement trundling along the coast.

[DY444]

8 hours ago, Ncarter2 said:

It will be interesting to see what is done to the 458’s traction wise. They were well known for not being suited to sustained 100mph running. 

 

Really?  Not heard that.  My only recollection is contemporary reports that they were very rapid on the rare occasions they were let loose on the higher speed stretches.  Before they were banished to the Reading line their trips out to Basingstoke and Alton required little if any 100mph running so I'm not sure how this "well known" issue manifested itself in practice.

 

Either way it's not going to be a problem on the Portsmouth direct turns given that the only bit cleared for 100mph is about 5 miles of the Up Fast line between Woking Jn and just past Byfleet Jn.  Even without a stop at Woking that's barely going to be in play.

 

As for the likely small number of likely peak Bournemouth line turns then it depends on the definition of "sustained".  When you factor in likely stops the longest requirement for 100mph running will be under 20 miles.  If they can't manage that then it's pretty poor for a modern-ish unit. 

 

Having said all of that the announcement made reference to 100mph capability being restored so someone clearly has some confidence whatever this potential issue was, or is, that it won't be a problem.

[Poor Old Bruce]

On 23/06/2021 at 10:36, Nearholmer said:

Does anyone have any photos of proper old EMUs to add? All these modern ones look the same to me.

 

How about this, a green one taken at Victoria, 12 Dec 1968

 

[Southernman46]

14 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

The 701s will enter traffic first on thr Reading line releasing 458s. Those will revert to four-car units but reconfigured for main line use and 100mph running. They will then go to the Portsmouth Direct route. 
 

The 701s will then start to replace the 455/456 fleet across the suburban network and are expected to have duties to Alton and Basingstoke despite being standard class only. 
 

The 707s go to South Eastern. Another duty has reverted to 455 this week as one of the four Shepperton duties has lost its 707s. 
 

The 455/456 fleet are expected to go for scrap despite having recently been retractioned and they are currently receiving new bogies.  Some may transfer to Southern to replace their largely-original 455s but this has not been confirmed.  
 

The full fleet of 444s will be available for Bournemouth line duty meaning all trains can be 10-car (5-car to Poole and Weymouth due to power supply limitations). 

 

This appears to leave a large surplus of 450s. Their Hounslow, Reading and Weybridge duties convert to 701s. Their fast Portsmouth duties are replaced by 458s (apparently to be class 458/4) leaving them with Alton, Basingstoke, slow direct and “via Botley” Portsmouth trsins and local Hampshire duties which do not require 127 units even if all trains which could be are run as 12-car. Hampshire locals can only be 4-car. 
 

What will be the future for that fleet?  Watch this space. 

Many thanks for all that ................

[Southernman46]

Does anyone have details of the remaining 707 diagrams please ?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I think any 458s down to Bournemouth will be as part of their diagrams to get to BM depot for stabling/cleaning/maintenance, ie early morning up turns and late evening down ones  Bit like how the (abortive) class 442s were going to operate before everything went down the pan with those units.

[Gwiwer]

6 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

Does anyone have details of the remaining 707 diagrams please ?

Three of four all-day weekday Shepperton duties but not the peak-time trips via Richmond.  I don't have the exact diagrams for the Windsor lines but 707s still work about half of the Windsor and some Weybridge-via-Hounslow services.  They also have inter-worked duties on the peak-hour Hounslow "rounders".  

 

This past week the Shepperton duty which has reverted to 455 operation has been the 06.12 and every two hours off Waterloo, 07.11 and every two hours off Shepperton.  The rest have been 707s.  

[Gwiwer]

18 hours ago, Ncarter2 said:

It will be interesting to see what is done to the 458’s traction wise. They were well known for not being suited to sustained 100mph running. 

They are fundamentally the same as the former class 460 units which ran at 100mph on the Gatwick Express service.  They currently include or are formed entirely of converted class 460 vehicles.  

 

I don't know the full story but it seems there may be a means to re-use the unused class 442 traction packages being stripped from those units on the 458s.  The seating is also being looked at as I understand it with a view to similar re-use as it is almost new or unused.  Some units ran low mileage in service with new seats and some never turned a wheel again.  

 

Either way they should be perfectly fit for 100mph operation.  

 

The ex-class 460 vehicle is being removed for Portsmouth line operation because it is the one which does not carry any critical components.  The handful of 458/5 units formed completely of ex-class 460 vehicles are to be stored and used for spares.  This will have the effect, among other things, of returning them to a uniform appearance in traffic once more as the ex-460 vehicles have glued-on tinted glazing with squared corners whilst the original 458 vehicles have flush windows in frames with round corners.  First class will be restored though no doubt it will still be the handful of seats over the end bogie and considered "passive" first class in the manner Southern does with its 377s - just an antimacassar for your money and able to be used by anyone with any ticket on a standard-class-only service.  

[Ncarter2]

10 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

Really?  Not heard that.  My only recollection is contemporary reports that they were very rapid on the rare occasions they were let loose on the higher speed stretches.  Before they were banished to the Reading line their trips out to Basingstoke and Alton required little if any 100mph running so I'm not sure how this "well known" issue manifested itself in practice.

 

Either way it's not going to be a problem on the Portsmouth direct turns given that the only bit cleared for 100mph is about 5 miles of the Up Fast line between Woking Jn and just past Byfleet Jn.  Even without a stop at Woking that's barely going to be in play.

 

As for the likely small number of likely peak Bournemouth line turns then it depends on the definition of "sustained".  When you factor in likely stops the longest requirement for 100mph running will be under 20 miles.  If they can't manage that then it's pretty poor for a modern-ish unit. 

 

Having said all of that the announcement made reference to 100mph capability being restored so someone clearly has some confidence whatever this potential issue was, or is, that it won't be a problem.

Prior to being reformed as 5-car units, when they had 100mph capacity they suffered from traction problems, while I’m not fully aware of what, I do recall one issue was overheating of the motors, but this was one of many problems. These issues were part of the reason for dropping their speed to 75mph. 
There primary route is to be the Pompy directs, while not 100mph, it also isn’t 75 or below for most parts. 
Aside form discussions with colleagues within NR, especially around SWR’s proposals for these units, discussions with ex SWT staff would support they didn’t seem suited to speeds over 75. 
Personally, I’m not convinced it’s confidence in them, these units were destined for scrapping. The debacle that was the 442’s, has clearly played a major part in the change of heart, the 458’s were not part of the SWR plan. 

[Ncarter2]

1 hour ago, Gwiwer said:

 

I don't know the full story but it seems there may be a means to re-use the unused class 442 traction packages being stripped from those units on the 458s.  The seating is also being looked at as I understand it with a view to similar re-use as it is almost new or unused.  Some units ran low mileage in service with new seats and some never turned a wheel again.

It would be good to see the traction packages reused rather than say gathering dust. Hopefully under the 458’s.