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Third-Rail EMU Photos


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On 13/07/2021 at 16:33, Gwiwer said:

Of interest in the Victoria shots is the track and station layout which then existed on some "Brighton" side platforms.  One face was a straight 16-car platform but the other had the offset and "middle road" (which was not strictly a loco-release) with intermediate signalling which permitted use by two 8-car trains one on each side of the dog-leg separated by the signalling.  It was also possible for the "inner" train to depart via the middle road - it was not necessary to await the departure of the "outer" train first which made for quite a flexible operation given that 8-car trains were the suburban norm and were often used on quieter main-line turns.  All of this was swept away in the partial rebuild which straightened all platforms and shortened some such that one 12-car train is now the maximum which can be accommodated although in-platform splits are possible.  

Whenever there was discussion about the use of this facility, the Area 1 Controller (I was Area 4) would nod sagely and mutter "North-South working, boy" without removing the pipe from his mouth. Bill Tree and Joe Peto were the Traffic Regulators at Vic Central box in that late '60s/early 70's era, and I was told in no uncertain terms by Area 1 that Traffic Regulators were the salt of the earth. This seemed a bit surreal when, rather less than a decade later, I found myself covering the equivalent post at the new London Bridge box, which covered a far bigger area.....

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I think I saw a 442 driving car yesterday, in a very strange location. It was on the back of a big lorry going across Milton Keynes, not on a road that would obviously have been coming from Wolverton, heading east. I only got a quick glimpse, because I was driving west, but I’m pretty sure that’s what it was.

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5 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I think I saw a 442 driving car yesterday, in a very strange location. It was on the back of a big lorry going across Milton Keynes, not on a road that would obviously have been coming from Wolverton, heading east. I only got a quick glimpse, because I was driving west, but I’m pretty sure that’s what it was.

 

One of the driving cars has been earmarked for preservation as part of the national collection, could that be the one you saw?

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Given the National Collection's attitude to other EMU's and parts thereof, presumably that means it is destined to sit on a bit of isolated track in a muddy field somewhere for about ten years before being scrapped as no one wants to take it on?

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8 hours ago, John M Upton said:

Given the National Collection's attitude to other EMU's and parts thereof, presumably that means it is destined to sit on a bit of isolated track in a muddy field somewhere for about ten years before being scrapped as no one wants to take it on?

They could update it to modern standards for heritage main line running - but someone would just suggest they'd have been better off buying an electrostar :)

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11 hours ago, John M Upton said:

Given the National Collection's attitude to other EMU's and parts thereof, presumably that means it is destined to sit on a bit of isolated track in a muddy field somewhere for about ten years before being scrapped as no one wants to take it on?

Seems sensible. We can't have valuable coffee stand space in the hall at York being taken up by trains. 

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Indeed not; the cafe was the best part when I went last time.

 

I’m serious about that, in that I thought the cafe was the only part that seemed to have moved into the C21st, something that might be attractive as part of a family day out, whereas the rest of the museum looked a tiny bit dusty, uncared-for, and not particularly attractive to non-hardcore-enthusiasts. We went on a family trip to the RAF museum at Hendon at about the same time, and that manages to be far, far more interesting to the lay visitor, ditto the LT Museum at Covent Garden, and the National Space Centre. Somehow, the NRM seemed to be failing to make railways interesting and engaging.

 

Small rant over.

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14 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

To me, it seems an odd thing to preserve, because I can’t quite see what it is representative of. It’s a Mk3 shell, isn’t it? And, presumably there is already a Mk3 in the NC.

 

They do hold the official record for the fastest 3rd rail EMU in the world, 109mph.  (A REP has been faster but that was a special test train).

 

Also the first use of automatic plug doors, the only EMU to be built with the "full size" mk3 shell, and the last example of the SR's recycling policy.

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10 hours ago, simon b said:

They do hold the official record for the fastest 3rd rail EMU in the world, 109mph.  (A REP has been faster but that was a special test train).

 

 

Ah yes those "special test" trains.  Otherwise known as 92s in the winter timetable formed REP + TC where standard operating procedure if departing from Basingstoke P2 was to stick it into weak field, leave it there until about a mile and a half short of Winchester and then throw in a big handful of EP at the last minute before stopping right on the 8 car marker.  The Bournemouth depot equivalent of the qualifying process for the Old Oak Common 130 club.  Happy days ;)

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1 hour ago, DY444 said:

 

Ah yes those "special test" trains.  Otherwise known as 92s in the winter timetable formed REP + TC where standard operating procedure if departing from Basingstoke P2 was to stick it into weak field, leave it there until about a mile and a half short of Winchester and then throw in a big handful of EP at the last minute before stopping right on the 8 car marker.  The Bournemouth depot equivalent of the qualifying process for the Old Oak Common 130 club.  Happy days ;)

They were quick, but not the quickest.

 

The ultimate speed run of a REP was in connection with testing for the euro-star trains. Alsthom and SNCF engineers were skeptical of the current collection ability of the 3rd rail system for the new trains, so a special test was arranged. This was an overnight possession between Ashford and Tonbridge where a overhauled REP with maximum diameter wheels was run flat out. As it screamed past Staplehurst it was clocked at 117mph before the power was backed off. Apparently the ride in said unit at that speed was horrific. 

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1 hour ago, simon b said:

They were quick, but not the quickest.

 

The ultimate speed run of a REP was in connection with testing for the euro-star trains. Alsthom and SNCF engineers were skeptical of the current collection ability of the 3rd rail system for the new trains, so a special test was arranged. This was an overnight possession between Ashford and Tonbridge where a overhauled REP with maximum diameter wheels was run flat out. As it screamed past Staplehurst it was clocked at 117mph before the power was backed off. Apparently the ride in said unit at that speed was horrific. 

 

In my experience the ride of the REP motor coaches was very dependent on the quality of the track.  In the early years of the Bournemouth electrification when the CWR was still fairly new they rode pretty well.  Once the 91s went hourly in 1974 the track took a bigger hammering and over time the riding became routinely quite lively.  By contrast I always found the TCs rode quite well.  I remember talking to a Bournemouth driver about the riding of the REPs and he said that's why we always do the silly stuff in the down direction when we're not sitting in it.

Edited by DY444
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1 hour ago, simon b said:

They were quick, but not the quickest.

 

The ultimate speed run of a REP was in connection with testing for the euro-star trains. Alsthom and SNCF engineers were skeptical of the current collection ability of the 3rd rail system for the new trains, so a special test was arranged. This was an overnight possession between Ashford and Tonbridge where a overhauled REP with maximum diameter wheels was run flat out. As it screamed past Staplehurst it was clocked at 117mph before the power was backed off. Apparently the ride in said unit at that speed was horrific. 

What year did this test take place?

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33 minutes ago, Welly said:

What year did this test take place?

 

The first REPs were disbanded in late 1986 so I doubt it was much later than 1987.  The maximum speed for Eurostar on the third rail routes was 100mph and by early 1988 the 442s had started running and demonstrated this was fine.  We also had the current collection tests involving 33115 so it all seems a bit strange that such a test should have been felt to be necessary.  It's not as though there was any alternative to running on the SR when Eurostar first started so even if current collection had been shown to be inadequate at higher speeds and they had been forced to stick to 90mph then SNCF, SNCB and Alstom would have just had to lump it.

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26 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

The first REPs were disbanded in late 1986 so I doubt it was much later than 1987.  The maximum speed for Eurostar on the third rail routes was 100mph and by early 1988 the 442s had started running and demonstrated this was fine.  We also had the current collection tests involving 33115 so it all seems a bit strange that such a test should have been felt to be necessary.  It's not as though there was any alternative to running on the SR when Eurostar first started so even if current collection had been shown to be inadequate at higher speeds and they had been forced to stick to 90mph then SNCF, SNCB and Alstom would have just had to lump it.

I remember all the mainstream media criticism of the Eurostar running on the Victorian network (in the usual "Isn't Britain Rubbish?" style), but then also siding with all the protesters against the building of HS1.  I presume all those protesting sold up and left that part of Kent, once the opening of HS1 had doubled the value of their houses.......

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9 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I remember all the mainstream media criticism of the Eurostar running on the Victorian network (in the usual "Isn't Britain Rubbish?" style), but then also siding with all the protesters against the building of HS1.  I presume all those protesting sold up and left that part of Kent, once the opening of HS1 had doubled the value of their houses.......

 

Indeed.  I've commented before about well heeled Chiltern and North London residents extolling the virtues of Eurostar and TGV for jaunts to the fashionable parts of France whilst venting their spleen over HS2.

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14th July 2021 465170 on the Grove Park - Bromley North shuttle. More wanderings on the SE with visits to Victoria, Waterloo amongst other termini. Felt like a different age at this particular location!

 

Regards 

 

Guy

20210713_140821.jpg

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Thing I notice on the rare occasions that I go back to the SR is how much tree growth has encroached everywhere, which combined with the sales of surplus lands, has effectively down-sized the railway infrastructure - the entire feel of many lines is completely different from even 30 years ago.

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10 hours ago, Welly said:

What year did this test take place?

 

9 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

The first REPs were disbanded in late 1986 so I doubt it was much later than 1987.  The maximum speed for Eurostar on the third rail routes was 100mph and by early 1988 the 442s had started running and demonstrated this was fine.  We also had the current collection tests involving 33115 so it all seems a bit strange that such a test should have been felt to be necessary.  It's not as though there was any alternative to running on the SR when Eurostar first started so even if current collection had been shown to be inadequate at higher speeds and they had been forced to stick to 90mph then SNCF, SNCB and Alstom would have just had to lump it.

 

I think it would have been around 87, the details used to be on the railUK website but seem to be no more. Basically the French engineers didn't think a 3rd rail system could be operated safely above 100mph, hence a demonstration.  This was before the modified 33 was ever thought of.

 

The main problem with that sort of speeds was impact damage where the conductor shoes came into contact with the ramps, this could of been solved by longer run up ramps but then normal 3rd rail trains had a greater risk of being gapped.

 

The 4REP was used as they were known to be able to exceed 100mph, this being proved during braking trials to try to up their speed limit to 100mph.

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Another thing of interest were the "Greyhound" class 421 units, these had an extra field weakening position to help acceleration and were noticeably quicker than a normal unit. Official top speed was still kept at 90, but this was regularly exceeded.

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16 hours ago, simon b said:

 

 

I think it would have been around 87, the details used to be on the railUK website but seem to be no more. Basically the French engineers didn't think a 3rd rail system could be operated safely above 100mph, hence a demonstration.  This was before the modified 33 was ever thought of.

 

The main problem with that sort of speeds was impact damage where the conductor shoes came into contact with the ramps, this could of been solved by longer run up ramps but then normal 3rd rail trains had a greater risk of being gapped.

 

The 4REP was used as they were known to be able to exceed 100mph, this being proved during braking trials to try to up their speed limit to 100mph.

 

I still don't understand this.  Why did French engineers care whether the third rail system could operate safely above 100mph when there was no intention of doing that?

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26 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

I still don't understand this.  Why did French engineers care whether the third rail system could operate safely above 100mph when there was no intention of doing that?

 

I think that the French did not believe that 100mph was safe with third rail. They had very limited experience of third rail on mainline, the Maurienne line to Modane. I will have to look up what the speed limit was there but it may well have been as low as 120kph (75 mph).

 

Add: I can't find the speed limits for the Maurienne line but, even today (under OLE) there is nowhere on the line with a limit as high as 160kph.

Edited by Joseph_Pestell
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4 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I think that the French did not believe that 100mph was safe with third rail. They had very limited experience of third rail on mainline, the Maurienne line to Modane. I will have to look up what the speed limit was there but it may well have been as low as 120kph (75 mph).

 

Add: I can't find the speed limits for the Maurienne line but, even today (under OLE) there is nowhere on the line with a limit as high as 160kph.

 

Ok although "at 100 mph" is not the same as "over 100 mph".  Quite why they couldn't take our word for it when the SR had over 20 years at running at 90mph (officially) and frequently in and around 100mph (unofficially) with the REPs, and with double shoes on each shoe beam just to make it more onerous.  5 minutes of research would have told them that shoes were falling off all over the shop during the summer of 1967 and not at all after that following a modification.  Also I'm sure a REP at over 115 mph would have filled the French with confidence regarding safety! 

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Sometimes groups of engineers do things “just because they can”, usually with some feeble pretext to make it appear to have at least some business sense. That sort of frivolity has probable ceased now, but it was certainly alive under BR, and wouldn’t there have been a perfect pretext at this date, in terms of Eurostar running over ‘classic’ routes pre-HS1? “We need to show the French, Boss.”  “Really??!” “Oh, yes, they won’t believe it otherwise.”.

 

 

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