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No, without major work you'll not get an accurate 4-COR or 2-BIL out of them, but the overall shape and feel would be more Southern than you could achieve from the old Farish coaches with their too tall sides and inappropriate roof shape. There used to be plastic roofs available from Ultima that helped improve them, but I'm not sure they're still avaialble. Even if they are by the time you've added that to the cost of buying the the old coaches (plus postage) the saving compared to Dapol won't be much.

You probably could get something very close to the earlier 4-LAV units, especially as the wider 1st class compartments are available. The old Farish coaches just didn't have any wide 1st class compartments at all. I might look into that.

 

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On 02/08/2021 at 20:58, Gwiwer said:

That still looks wrong to my eyes.  Eyes which knew 8001 as the unique hybrid 8-VAB unit formed from vehicles out of 4-VEPs 7739/41/42 plus an SR-wired Mk1 buffet car.  Formed as a stopgap when insufficient 4-REP units were available and in order to provide the advertised catering service on Bournemouth - Waterloo semi-fasts it had enough power from three motor coaches out of eight to pace a 4-REP.  Often rostered coupled to a 4-VEP it also ran coupled to a 4-TC and sometimes solo.  On one occasion only the five-car portion was fit for traffic; when I saw it at Southampton the formation was 5-VAB+4VEP+3TC :O  Such was the SR 27-way control system flexibility.  

 

8001was carried more recently by the first of the "Juniper" units, now 458501 but introduced as 458001 and (as with the entire class at the time) not displaying the 45.

 

Using TCs with the VAB was avoided where possible though due to the lack of a train supply to the TC which meant no heat (in winter), nothing except emergency lights and no battery charging.  The latter meaning the emergency lights usually conked out about half way through the first leg of the diagram as did the headcode blind lamps meaning a tail lamp had to be carried on the TC when trailing. 

 

As EP stock didn't carry tail lamps normally, it was sometimes overlooked at the end of the journey and the next one started with it still in situ on the (now) front of the train, remaining there until either a signalman spotted it or the driver of a passing train reported it.  Then if it was a down train there followed the not for the faint hearted experience of getting down to the SPT on the Dn Fast to find out why you'd been stopped (this being in the middle of the 4 track formation with both adjacent lines open and often a live rail next to the SPT), and then removing the offending tail lamp!  

Edited by DY444
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On 02/08/2021 at 19:58, Gwiwer said:

That still looks wrong to my eyes.  Eyes which knew 8001 as the unique hybrid 8-VAB unit formed from vehicles out of 4-VEPs 7739/41/42 plus an SR-wired Mk1 buffet car.  Formed as a stopgap when insufficient 4-REP units were available and in order to provide the advertised catering service on Bournemouth - Waterloo semi-fasts it had enough power from three motor coaches out of eight to pace a 4-REP.  Often rostered coupled to a 4-VEP it also ran coupled to a 4-TC and sometimes solo.  On one occasion only the five-car portion was fit for traffic; when I saw it at Southampton the formation was 5-VAB+4VEP+3TC :O  Such was the SR 27-way control system flexibility.  

 

8001was carried more recently by the first of the "Juniper" units, now 458501 but introduced as 458001 and (as with the entire class at the time) not displaying the 45.


Every day’s a school day. I expect most people (like me) would have skimmed past that picture thinking it was nothing more than a bog standard 4 car 3rd rail Southern Region EMU.

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1 hour ago, Western Aviator said:


Every day’s a school day. I expect most people (like me) would have skimmed past that picture thinking it was nothing more than a bog standard 4 car 3rd rail Southern Region EMU.

There has always been a good deal of variety in those “bog standard” fleets. 

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I imagine that you may be the minority.

 

Also, air whistles. notice one on the EPB (?). When were they phased out from EMUs on the southern? I recall that the Class 71 had them to the end.

 

See here for a photo of a brand new HAP with a whistle, and no horns. 

http://extra.southernelectric.org.uk/features/historical-features/brfleet_hap.html

Edited by Nearholmer
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10 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I imagine that you may be the minority.

 

Also, air whistles. notice one on the EPB (?). When were they phased out from EMUs on the southern? I recall that the Class 71 had them to the end.

 

Late 50s/early 60s on the units on the Dartford Loop, maybe. I can definitely remember them for a few years, but by the time we moved to March, in 1962, there weren't many.

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I think they stopped being fitted in the mid 60's, the preserved 2BIL 2090 had a working one during it's runs at the woking 250 event. The last operating ones on the SR would probably have been the class 487 emu's on the W&C.

 

Interestingly the 378 units on London Overground are fitted with LU style whistles, as are/were Chiltern 165 units. 

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37 minutes ago, simon b said:

I think they stopped being fitted in the mid 60's, the preserved 2BIL 2090 had a working one during it's runs at the woking 250 event. The last operating ones on the SR would probably have been the class 487 emu's on the W&C.

 

Interestingly the 378 units on London Overground are fitted with LU style whistles, as are/were Chiltern 165 units. 

Used for warnings when moving about the depots. They still have two-tone horns when on the "main line".

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Electrostars have whistles, not a lot of people know that...

 

The IoW 483's did as well, what do their replacements the 484's have assuming they ever actual get around to entering actual passenger service that is.... 

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There’re several videos on YouTube of 484s on test, at least one of which has the sound of the whistle audible as the unit departs. 

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18 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

air whistles. .... When were they phased out from EMUs on the southern?

Early to mid 1960s.  Generally the change to air-horns was made as a part of each unit's cyclical C1 overhaul though some might have been done at an intermediate C3.  So there was a changeover period lasting perhaps 5 years or so.  This change also coincided with the repaint of the unit / loco into Rail Blue though again this was not an absolute rule.  The amount of work involved required an extended works visit to Eastleigh, Selhurst or Chart Leacon.  Minor overhauls, classified C6, were largely of safety-critical components and a thorough clean and re-varnish.  More significant work was programmed for longer down-time at the major overhaul.

 

London Underground stock has always had whistles and never air-horns.  The distinctive "peeeeeeeeeeep" has long been one of the network's characteristics.  SR suburban and main-line stock had slightly different notes IIRC but both gave a deeper tone than the Underground stock.  

 

Most units retain a whistle of sorts to this day.  Even new units such as SWR / SET's 707s are fitted.  They are used in cases where an audible warning is required (usually mandatory such as "I am about to move" within depot limits) in settings where a full blast of the horns may be disruptive to residential neighbours.  They produce a fairly quiet "woooot" when heard lineside and are almost inaudible at a distance unless one is standing in the "line of fire" in which case they are perfectly clear.  Living next to a depot I can vouch for the fact that they don't wake me as a "Bee-booop" probably would but that they are used and are effective as a warning.  Any staff on or about the track will acknowledge the toot with a raised hand just as they would any other audible warning signal.  Electrostars are also fitted and Southern drivers will occasionally make use of the whistle as an acknowledgement of platform staff giving a tip or indicating to an approaching driver that they are aware the train will run through fast.  

 

 

Edited by Gwiwer
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1 hour ago, IncorrectlySpelt said:

 

Whats happened with that 4Cor? Someones removed the corridor connector and the pickup shoes (let alone put it on a unelectrified track)

That's the unique 6tc 601

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4 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 SR suburban and main-line stock had slightly different notes IIRC but both gave a deeper tone than the Underground stock.  

 

The only whistles I recall on the southern were the 71s, which used to give a  blast as they came under the bridge at Tonbridge with the Night Ferry. Why, I'm not sure, maybe they were scared of the limited clearance of the mouse-hole. The sound was nothing like a steam loco whistle, and only a tiny bit deeper and firmer than the LU ones ...... a slightly ghostly sound.

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5 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 

 Any staff on or about the track will acknowledge the toot with a raised hand just as they would any other audible warning signal.  Electrostars are also fitted and Southern drivers will occasionally make use of the whistle as an acknowledgement of platform staff giving a tip or indicating to an approaching driver that they are aware the train will run through fast.  

 

 

 

Also used by considerate drivers when they are moving off from a platform and S&T / P-way / etc staff are lurking in close proximity to said platform waiting to work on points or signals say.

 

Technically that is not permitted under the official rules - but provided its clearly audible (the whistles on the 377s or Road Runner sounding buzzer like thing on the 700s are perfectly easy to hear at close range)  and the staff acknowledge I don't see why officialdom decides we need to be deafend by use of the horn.

 

 

Edited by phil-b259
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34 minutes ago, simon b said:

No idea! Unless it's had an LU style one fitted at some point?

 

Aha!

 

I persisted, and at 5:58 is the sound I remember. Goodness knows what the earlier sound was. Even better at 7:38, where the ghostliness comes across.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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