DY444 Posted July 10, 2021 Share Posted July 10, 2021 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Ncarter2 said: Prior to being reformed as 5-car units, when they had 100mph capacity they suffered from traction problems, while I’m not fully aware of what, I do recall one issue was overheating of the motors, but this was one of many problems. These issues were part of the reason for dropping their speed to 75mph. There primary route is to be the Pompy directs, while not 100mph, it also isn’t 75 or below for most parts. Aside form discussions with colleagues within NR, especially around SWR’s proposals for these units, discussions with ex SWT staff would support they didn’t seem suited to speeds over 75. Personally, I’m not convinced it’s confidence in them, these units were destined for scrapping. The debacle that was the 442’s, has clearly played a major part in the change of heart, the 458’s were not part of the SWR plan. Two observations. In the period between when they got their first reprieve and being converted to 5 cars they won the Modern Railways golden spanner more than once. Even allowing for some of SWT's questionable delay attribution decisions they were nevertheless pretty reliable. The motors overheated because of the relatively low speed and stop/start nature of the Reading line services they worked. Basically there was a mismatch between the heat generated from frequent acceleration/rheo/regen cycles and the motor cooling capacity at the relatively low motor rpm the line speeds imposed. When they were converted to 5 car the 75mph re-gearing resulted in the motors rotating faster which improved the airflow. So re-gearing them back to 100mph and running them on faster services with fewer stops will also result in the same higher proportion of faster motor rotation and improved air flow. So it's not that they have a problem running at 100mph; it is that their motor cooling is more sensitive to the nature of the duty cycle than it perhaps should be. Gear the motors appropriately for the nature of the services you intend to run them on and they don't overheat. Edited July 10, 2021 by DY444 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ncarter2 Posted July 10, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2021 19 minutes ago, Ncarter2 said: Prior to being reformed as 5-car units, when they had 100mph capacity they suffered from traction problems, while I’m not fully aware of what, I do recall one issue was overheating of the motors, but this was one of many problems. These issues were part of the reason for dropping their speed to 75mph. There primary route is to be the Pompy directs, while not 100mph, it also isn’t 75 or below for most parts. Aside form discussions with colleagues within NR, especially around SWR’s proposals for these units, discussions with ex SWT staff would support they didn’t seem suited to speeds over 75. Personally, I’m not convinced it’s confidence in them, these units were destined for scrapping. The debacle that was the 442’s, has clearly played a major part in the change of heart, the 458’s were not part of the SWR plan. So decided to do some digging as it was bugging me. The following is a quote from Ian Walsmley of Porterbrook. Being 5 cars they will only operate in pairs rather than 3 x 4 cars and that means we can allow each unit to draw more current for a bit more performance. [...] but with an increased load, more vehicles and more frequent stops the motors will be working a lot harder and getting a lot hotter. The low average speed means that the fan on the motor shaft will not pull in enough air to cool it on a warm day and we will see motors overheating. [...] we could disable regenerative braking to solve that but that wouldn't be environmentally friendly. So the best answer is to re-gear the units from their unnecessary 100 mph to 75 mph. This means the motor spins faster for a given track speed and stays comfortable despite its harder life. It’s been a while since I spoke with the ex SWT guys, so if I get chance I will try and catch up with them to see if they can give any more details on the technical issues the units had. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ncarter2 Posted July 10, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2021 9 minutes ago, DY444 said: Two observations. In the period between when they got their first reprieve and being converted to 5 cars they won the Modern Railways golden spanner more than once. Even allowing for some of SWT's questionable delay attribution decisions they were nevertheless pretty reliable. The motors overheated because of the relatively low speed and stop/start nature of the Reading line services they worked. Basically there was a mismatch between the heat generated from frequent acceleration/rheo/regen cycles and the motor cooling capacity at the relatively low motor rpm the line speeds imposed. When they were converted to 5 car the 75mph re-gearing resulted in the motors rotating faster which improved the airflow. So re-gearing them back to 100mph and running them on faster services with fewer stops will also result in the same higher proportion of faster motor rotation and improved air flow. So it's not that they have a problem running at 100mph; it is that their motor cooling is more sensitive to the nature of the duty cycle than it perhaps should be. Gear the motors appropriately for the nature of the services you intend to run them on and they don't overheat. That would make sense. As I say, I don’t recall the issues, I just remember them Not being favourable units, based on discussions with what we’re SWT staff. Time will tell I guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DY444 Posted July 10, 2021 Share Posted July 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Ncarter2 said: That would make sense. As I say, I don’t recall the issues, I just remember them Not being favourable units, based on discussions with what we’re SWT staff. Time will tell I guess. It sounds like my recollection is wrong. I thought they had a pre-existing traction motor over heating problem before conversion to 5 cars. However the Ian Walmesley quote suggests they would have overheated solely because they were converted to 5 cars and were re-geared to mitigate that. Either way that means that converting them back to 4 cars/100mph is not going to cause a problem - which is the main point. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post eastwestdivide Posted July 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 11, 2021 A selection from Hoo Junction today. I used to cycle over there in the early 1980s to see the freight going in and out, but also took a few EMU photos. Milton Ranges Halt platforms were still there, unused. A 2-HAP leading a down train in about 1982. I think the tall chimneys would be Tilbury power station: From Shornemead Crossing, also 1982ish, a single MLV on a regular parcels turn that came up in the middle of the day: 1981, and the relatively unusual sight of a failed 4-EPB being rescued by one of the Hoo Junction shunters, 08648. I think the passengers had been detrained at Higham. The shunter brought the unit into the yard: Later the same day, 33056 with that failed 4-EPB pulling out of the yard, I'd guess to Slade Green. The headcode is the one for the Allington-Westbury ARC hoppers, so I wondered if the loco had been "borrowed" from that working: 1982, a 4-EPB on a Cannon Street service. Nice ferry van in the background: 1983, a 73 with a couple of units, condemned 4-SUBs I think. A few 4-SUBs were scrapped in Hoo Junction, and (in the very late 70s I think) there was the remains of a 4-COR motor coach visible in the yard. 1984, and a 4-SUB is waiting to be scrapped: 1985, a single 2-EPB trundles past. These also got used for parcels, but I don't think this was such a duty: 27 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northmoor Posted July 11, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 11, 2021 Thanks for those @eastwestdivide; I don't think the area has changed that much (although Tilbury Power Station has certainly changed) and it's already on my list of locations for a session of spotting/photography. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 16 minutes ago, Northmoor said: Thanks for those @eastwestdivide; I don't think the area has changed that much (although Tilbury Power Station has certainly changed) and it's already on my list of locations for a session of spotting/photography. Unfortunately the crossing at Shornemead is much more restrictive for photography now - they also monitor it closely for miscreants, as they had a lot of trouble with off-road motorbikes and others. Also you can't just wander in and sit on the buffer stops at the Gravesend end of Hoo Jn either! There is however a useful public footpath that crosses the line and goes round the back of the down side yards at the Higham end. Bing maps OS link The former canal towpath parallels the line towards Gravesend (lots of vegetation though), and there are at least two footpaths inland from the towpath that cross the line, one presumably at the site of the old halt I photographed above. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artless Bodger Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, eastwestdivide said: 1985, a single 2-EPB trundles past. These also got used for parcels, but I don't think this was such a duty: Summer '76 I did shift work at Reeds APM during the holidays, going in for 10-6 shift, at Maidstone West I used to see Post Office staff filling up a saloon of an EPB with mail bags piled in the gangways and on the seats, all the doors locked after, on a service in the Paddock Wood direction. Might have explained why the seats were quite as dirty as they were! Some really nice photos there, thank you. Edited July 11, 2021 by Artless Bodger Spelling and added stuff 1 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
talisman56 Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 (edited) On 10/07/2021 at 09:28, Poor Old Bruce said: How about this, a green one taken at Victoria, 12 Dec 1968 Four 2BILs - I thought one of them was a HAL but on zooming in, the curvature of the bodyside isn't right.. Edited July 11, 2021 by talisman56 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted July 11, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 11, 2021 57 minutes ago, talisman56 said: Four 2BILs - I thought one of them was a HAL but on zooming in, the curvature of the bodyside isn't right.. And on a working normally, but not exclusively, the preserve of a pair of 4-Lav units. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 Excellent set of pics. Nice to see The Burma Star, about which a colleague of mine irreverently asked why “They’d named an engine after a takeaway food place.”. 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 4 hours ago, Nearholmer said: ...Nice to see The Burma Star, about which a colleague of mine irreverently asked why “They’d named an engine after a takeaway food place.”. Which reminds me of being told there was a newly-named 73, "Arthur something or other, too quick to read it properly". Turned out to be Airtour Suisse. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 2415 awaits its fate at Bournemouth depot earlier this evening. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post eastwestdivide Posted July 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) Raiding the North Kent archives again, this time starting with a historical theme. For the Gravesham Edwardian Fair, they put on a shuttle between Gravesend-Rochester with the preserved green 4-SUB + 2-BIL formation, here at Higham (x2) and Gravesend. The Science Museum collection here suggests 1985 although my photos are marked 1986 or 1987. One day I'll unearth my notebooks and fix the gaps in my photo index... There was a Mr Pickwick's Special in connection with the Rochester Dickens Festival, here at Sole Street with less exotic motive power. Again, my notes indicate 1986-87, but the Science Museum collection here suggests 1984, which actually tallies better with where I was living at the time: Moving up the line from Gravesend, here's a 4-EPB heading for Gillingham at Northfleet definitely in late 1983. Cement works lines and sidings on the left, with an overhead crane I think for wagon repairs. Don't know what happened to the colour balance on this one, and I'm finding it very hard to correct it: Definitely 1985, there was bridge work on the Dartford Tunnel approach road, with an up 4-CAP+4-EPB combination approaching: And finally at Dartford station in 1984, that single MLV working that I also photographed at Hoo Junction a few posts back: Edited July 12, 2021 by eastwestdivide more info 26 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
73c Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 Nice bit of modelling in that first photo, looks almost real. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 6 minutes ago, 73c said: Nice bit of modelling in that first photo, looks almost real. Thanks. The dribble of water in the remains of the Thames & Medway Canal on the left was pretty tricky, and there were 49 shades of grey paint on the concrete platforms and fences. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 On 11/07/2021 at 19:34, eastwestdivide said: Which reminds me of being told there was a newly-named 73, "Arthur something or other, too quick to read it properly". Turned out to be Airtour Suisse. Or the supposed story of a passenger wondering who 'Neville Hill' was, and why they'd name a HST power car after him.... 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northmoor Posted July 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 13, 2021 8 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said: Or the supposed story of a passenger wondering who 'Neville Hill' was, and why they'd name a HST power car after him.... They should have got him to name it. The Severn Valley, after a major refurbishment of the structure, found a lady called Victoria Bridge who lived locally, to officially open it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Poor Old Bruce Posted July 13, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 13, 2021 Back at Victoria, 12 Dec 1968 for the Brighton Belle and the same units on 18 June 1969 after a visit to the paint shop 24 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 I always thought the Belle would have looked better in Blue and Grey if they'd taken the yellow back to the edge of the driver's door. It just looks odd with the yellow end applied like that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted July 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 13, 2021 I have to say that when I saw the Belle thundered through Three Bridges in blue and grey I was stunned, that they could do that to such an institution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 The re-created Brighton Belle must be due out to play soon, surely. Much delayed I think. Their website still says Quote The latest expectation is for testing on the rails in spring 2020 at http://brightonbelle.com/future Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted July 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 13, 2021 The recreated (replica in my opinion, there doesn't seem to be an awful lot of the original left) Brighton Belle seems to have disappeared off the radar somewhat. Covid wouldn't have helped mind. Last picture I saw, the front end looked horribly butchered with modern style lights. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted July 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 13, 2021 The "re-created" Brighton Belle is very much a hybrid and modernised beast. It uses the fundamentals of original cars but they have all been significantly altered and the traction gear is 1963-type not 1933-type; still old by any standards but not at all the original. Modern headlights and wiring throughout are required as Grandfather Rights to run in original condition do not exist. The five-car formation has also gone and the cars are re-named from the originals. A small consolation for purists, perhaps, is that four more cars are planned return to semi-regular use once more. Of interest in the Victoria shots is the track and station layout which then existed on some "Brighton" side platforms. One face was a straight 16-car platform but the other had the offset and "middle road" (which was not strictly a loco-release) with intermediate signalling which permitted use by two 8-car trains one on each side of the dog-leg separated by the signalling. It was also possible for the "inner" train to depart via the middle road - it was not necessary to await the departure of the "outer" train first which made for quite a flexible operation given that 8-car trains were the suburban norm and were often used on quieter main-line turns. All of this was swept away in the partial rebuild which straightened all platforms and shortened some such that one 12-car train is now the maximum which can be accommodated although in-platform splits are possible. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted July 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) 51 minutes ago, John M Upton said: Last picture I saw, the front end looked horribly butchered with modern style lights. Its those lights or a yellow front end! The decision to fit modern group standard lighting arrangements has allowed the traditional Pullman crests to be applied. Edited July 13, 2021 by phil-b259 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now