Third-Rail EMU Photos

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, John M Upton said:

The recreated (replica in my opinion, there doesn't seem to be an awful lot of the original left) Brighton Belle seems to have disappeared off the radar somewhat. Covid wouldn't have helped mind.

 

 

For good reasons!

 

The original Belle used screw couplings to link the cars in each set - this is unacceptable on the modern railway and replacement with a form of rigid coupler was required.

 

The original belle traction gear is obsolete and bespoke. Replacement with 1950s era EMU equipment which is readily available makes for easier, quicker and cheaper maintenance

 

The original bogies gave an appalling ride - cups could only be half filled IIRC) - replacement by 1950s EMU bogies gives a much better ride and supports a true Pullman dining experience.

 

The original kitchens were designed to serve light meals and snacks - the full 3 course Pullman dining experience (which is where the money is in charter train terms) could not be provided from them - hence the decision to insert a new bigger one into one of the cars.

 

The original toilets which dumped the contents straight onto the track are banned - retention tanks etc are required

 

The original seating layout was quite cramped (particularly in the 3rd class cars) and although OK for a 50 minute trip it is not comfortable for a 3hour run.

 

The original layout does not permit wheelchair users - and such people are just as keen to sample a Pullman dining experience as able bodied folk.

 

 

As has been noted most Heritage railways although claiming to represent that past actually do nothing of the sort. Take Sheffield Park for example - to be 'preserved' technically you would need to remove the loco works, gift shop, catering block, carriage shed and thats before we get to the train timetable or the rolling stock being used!

 

The recreated 'Brighton Belle' is similar - from a purists point of view it looks very different from the condition it was in during SR and BR service, however the only way you can keep it that way is to stuff and mount it in a exhibition. The minute it has to be used on the real railway and with todays passengers its is necessary to make massive alterations. The key is to try and ensure that they are 'sympathetic' in looks (again you can draw a comparison with Sheffield Park in that the Catering block was designed 'in the style' of the main 1882 station building)

Edited July 13, 2021 by phil-b259

[BernardTPM]

1960s design running gear, the trailers based on the B4 design. Not sure the earlier 1950s ones as used on EPBs and the like would have ridden much better than the original bogies.

[Artless Bodger]

Brighton, Preston Park shed. I had taken this with the school camera (borrowed with permission), I think about 1971. I thought the de-icer was ex 2Nol but Bood and Custard says they were all scrapped and underframes reused for 2EPB etc, so I'm unsure what its origin was. If the number on the nearest car is indeed S11159S then it is probably the MBSO from a 4COR converted to a 4RES and later to 4COR again as unit 3165, stored at Barnham from the end of April 1972 (thanks again to Blood and Custard, I hope I've managed to follow the complex reforming of units correctly, any mistakes are entirely mine).

 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Artless Bodger
Spelling

[Artless Bodger]

On 30/01/2021 at 20:28, eastwestdivide said:

Here's a few at Strood, although perhaps they're more about the before-and-after on the station, where there's now a new building on the down side and a lift/footbridge in addition to the dank and smelly underpass. The CLASP-type shelter on the up platform remains in place.

From early 2020, Javelin for London and a rail replacement bus I think in the forecourt:

 

and a nearly-equivalent shot from 2011, Networker for Charing Cross, and another on the Maidstone West line shuttle:

 

Then down on platform 1, from early 2020, Thameslink to Rainham:

 

And the best I could do for an equivalent "before" shot, an honorary third-rail EMU on a railtour in the 1980s:

 

Thank you for these very interesting photos, I like the 'aerial' shot with Networkers especially, reminds me of trips home to see M&D in Maidstone.

 

Dank and smelly underpasses seemd to be an SER trademark, the one at Canterbury West was pretty poor for such a touristy city, and iirc there was an even worse one at the adjacent level crossing. 

[John M Upton]

1 hour ago, Artless Bodger said:

Brighton, Preston Park shed. I had taken this with the school camera (borrowed with permission), I think about 1971. I thought the de-icer was ex 2Nol but Bood and Custard says they were all scrapped and underframes reused for 2EPB etc, so I'm unsure what its origin was. If the number on the nearest car is indeed S11159S then it is probably the MBSO from a 4COR converted to a 4RES and later to 4COR again as unit 3165, stored at Bernham from the end of April 1972 (thanks again to Blood and Custard again, I hope I've managed to follow the compex reforming of units correctly, any mistakes are entirely mine).

 

 

The unoccupied siding between the trains is now known as the North Siding, I drove a Class 387 all the way up to those buffer stops a few weeks back and it is a LONG walk back to Brighton Station!!!

[eastwestdivide]

46 minutes ago, Artless Bodger said:

trips home to see M&D in Maidstone

Presumably using an M&D bus?!

Strood underpass to platforms 2 & 3 is still in use despite the new footbridge, and is a bit brighter and less smelly than it used to be. 

[zarniwhoop]

1 hour ago, Artless Bodger said:

Brighton, Preston Park shed. I had taken this with the school camera (borrowed with permission), I think about 1971. I thought the de-icer was ex 2Nol but Bood and Custard says they were all scrapped and underframes reused for 2EPB etc, so I'm unsure what its origin was.

From memory, the de-icers used two motorcoaches from early SUBs which pre-dated the NOLs. I can remember using an old 220-film camera (rectangular images on 120 film) to take distant photos from the road above Lovers Walk, maybe at that time or the next year, but unfortunately I discarded them years ago.

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

For good reasons!

 

The original Belle used screw couplings to link the cars in each set - this is unacceptable on the modern railway and replacement with a form of rigid coupler was required.

 

The original belle traction gear is obsolete and bespoke. Replacement with 1950s era EMU equipment which is readily available makes for easier, quicker and cheaper maintenance

 

The original bogies gave an appalling ride - cups could only be half filled IIRC) - replacement by 1950s EMU bogies gives a much better ride and supports a true Pullman dining experience.

 

The original kitchens were designed to serve light meals and snacks - the full 3 course Pullman dining experience (which is where the money is in charter train terms) could not be provided from them - hence the decision to insert a new bigger one into one of the cars.

 

The original toilets which dumped the contents straight onto the track are banned - retention tanks etc are required

 

The original seating layout was quite cramped (particularly in the 3rd class cars) and although OK for a 50 minute trip it is not comfortable for a 3hour run.

 

The original layout does not permit wheelchair users - and such people are just as keen to sample a Pullman dining experience as able bodied folk.

 

 

As has been noted most Heritage railways although claiming to represent that past actually do nothing of the sort. Take Sheffield Park for example - to be 'preserved' technically you would need to remove the loco works, gift shop, catering block, carriage shed and thats before we get to the train timetable or the rolling stock being used!

 

The recreated 'Brighton Belle' is similar - from a purists point of view it looks very different from the condition it was in during SR and BR service, however the only way you can keep it that way is to stuff and mount it in a exhibition. The minute it has to be used on the real railway and with todays passengers its is necessary to make massive alterations. The key is to try and ensure that they are 'sympathetic' in looks (again you can draw a comparison with Sheffield Park in that the Catering block was designed 'in the style' of the main 1882 station building)

kind of wonder if a class 442 might have been a better choice to buy and repaint as a Bournemouth Belle in Pullman colours…

 

All the mod cons of the original, fitted as standard.

Edited July 13, 2021 by adb968008

[Gwiwer]

The de-icing units were ex-1925 suburban motor coaches not 2-Nol. The 4-Cor identity is correct. A few years later the preserved 4-Cor 3142 was stored inside that shed. And a few years after all the stock was removed it burned down and the site cleared. All that’s there now is a couple of sidings one of which is Lover’s Walk depot’s washer road. 

[Gwiwer]

6 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

kind of wonder if a class 442 might have been a better choice to buy and repaint as a Bournemouth Belle in Pullman colours…

 

All the mod cons of the original, fitted as standard.

 Not available at the time, lacking the wider nostalgic appeal of the “Brighton Belle” and (having regard to the heritage aspect”) still regarded as modern trains even if the basic Mk3 design is well over 40 years old. 

[phil-b259]

48 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

kind of wonder if a class 442 might have been a better choice to buy and repaint as a Bournemouth Belle in Pullman colours…

 

All the mod cons of the original, fitted as standard.

 

Not really. Part of what makes a Pullman a 'proper' Pullman in most peoples eyes is the distinctive shape and styling of the cars. The 5BEL cars, even after their rebuilding still have a strong family resemblance to those used in the Belmond British Pullman. Moreover the end effect (even with said rebuilding will still look a lot more like a genuine 5 BEL unit than a repainted 442 unit.

 

[Artless Bodger]

2 hours ago, John M Upton said:

 

The unoccupied siding between the trains is now known as the North Siding, I drove a Class 387 all the way up to those buffer stops a few weeks back and it is a LONG walk back to Brighton Station!!!

Thank you, that represents several generations of SR emu development.

 

Is that the north junction to the Hove triangle you can see just beyond the stops?

 

At the time I think some of the National Collection locos were stored in that shed, I've seen a photo on one of the threads on RMweb of the train containing them when they were moved to York, including the LSWR electric shunter from Durnsford Road power station.

[Artless Bodger]

2 hours ago, eastwestdivide said:

Presumably using an M&D bus?!

Strood underpass to platforms 2 & 3 is still in use despite the new footbridge, and is a bit brighter and less smelly than it used to be. 

Trips back to Maidstone offered many options, but I only used the bus if I visited the model shop in Rochester on the way, then a bus either over Bluebell Hill or round through Wouldham and Aylesford. Usually Reading to Paddington, then a choice over the years: Victoria to East Station, Charing Cross to West via Strood or Paddock Wood, later St Pancras to West via Strood. On a Saturday I would return via Tonbridge, Redhill and Guildford to avoid London crowds. I even got the through Reading - Dover once and changed at Ashford! There was yet another route on Saturdays, East Station fast to London  Bridge and Cannon Street, made the mistake of going to CS once, totally dead, more like a fiddle yard than a station at weekends.

 

Just before the slam door stock was all withdrawn, 375s already appearing I'd get lucky with a VEP, and right near the end, joy of joys a 4CEP turned up, made that trip extra special.

[Gwiwer]

29 minutes ago, Artless Bodger said:

Is that the north junction to the Hove triangle you can see just beyond the stops?

Correct.  Its correct name is Preston Park Junction.

[John M Upton]

Indeed, also known as the Cliftonville Spur.  Despite Preston Park station being literally a stones throw away, there is no authorised walking route so any driver who gets sent all the way up the top of the North Siding has no choice but to walk all the way back through Lovers Walk and back to Brighton!!

[The Lurker]

20 hours ago, Artless Bodger said:

Thank you for these very interesting photos, I like the 'aerial' shot with Networkers especially, reminds me of trips home to see M&D in Maidstone.

 

 

 

I grew up in the area and my sister and I occasionally referred to our parents as Maidstone & District!

[Artless Bodger]

A few photos from visits to see M&D (parents not busses).

 

East station 16 June 2007

 

465 151 crossing the high level bridge on a terminating stopper. The building on the left, across the river Medway, was Tilling Stevens works, Mum worked in the office as a typist in her younger days.

 

 

465 151 entering platform 3, the bay converted from the old long loading bank in the goods yard, originally for military traffic from the adjacent barracks.

 

 

465 151 arrived. The brick monstrosity behind was built on the site of the 'Wig and Gown' pub / restaurant and the 'Hare and Hounds' the pub blown up by the IRA in 1975. The family had been for a meal in the Wig and Gown that evening, we'd just got back home when we heard the explosion. Luckily a soldier had seen the bomb and the pub and area were evacuated before it went off.

 

 

A 375 just arriving, my train on the first leg home. From other photos I took on the journey, this was the train to Cannon Street, calling West Malling, London Bridge and CS, so a quick trip to London. Then LB to Waterloo, cross to the LSWR and a train to Earley.

 

Grabbed through the window as we approached Hither Green, a 376.

 

2014, going home avoiding London.

 

Maidstone West Station  3/5/2014

 

375 310 arriving from Strood, bound for Tonbridge

 

Tonbridge, 375 310 ready to return to Strood, and a southern 377 for the train on to Redhill.

 

I had a long wait for the Redhill departure, several up and down South Eastern trains passed, this 465 is for Charing Cross, from Hastings iirc.

 

A few 377s at Redhill while waiting for the GW 165 to Reading.

 

In the first and third you can see white stains on the up through, evidence of some chalk pumping through the formation, very noticeable on occasions when Thameslink 319s passed though non-stop at speed after wet weather.

 

[Artless Bodger]

One more, rather indifferent shot, taken early 1980s. A 4 EPB on a Maidstone - Strood shuttle approaches New Hythe. Taken having climbed part way out of the only window on the old beater floor in the paper mill onto the big steam pipe. I was taking photos of the 73 leaving with our oil empties, included was a wagon carrying the two defective wheel sets exchanged on site some days before on a tank wagon in the train. The fulls had arrived with the wagon on skates.

 

The wasp striped door on the warehouse might be the one I drove Howe (Peckett 0-4-0ST) through many years before, though it was green then (there were two warehouses on that stretch of siding. Only minor damage as the door sprang out of its runners and ended up draped over the cab back.

 

[eastwestdivide]

33 minutes ago, Artless Bodger said:

One more, rather indifferent shot

I wouldn't say that - climbing out of a window onto a steam pipe means you've probably now shared a view for which no-one else had either the opportunity or the inclination!

[Southernman46]

On 11/07/2021 at 15:23, Nearholmer said:

Excellent set of pics.

 

Nice to see The Burma Star, about which a colleague of mine irreverently asked why “They’d named an engine after a takeaway food place.”.

Sounds like something Jack Tebbit would say ??

[Southernman46]

There is currently some shite on the SW targeting 458's and doing this .............. it's the 3rd or 4th I've photographed like it. 

Thank goodness for editing software ............... 

 

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, Southernman46 said:

Sounds like something Jack Tebbit would say ??

Spot-on, it was he.

 

I always enjoyed his epithets. Still in occasional contact with him, and hoping to see him if/when it feels genuinely Covid-safe to travel much by train (time it doesn’t currently).

[DY444]

On 13/07/2021 at 19:27, adb968008 said:

kind of wonder if a class 442 might have been a better choice to buy and repaint as a Bournemouth Belle in Pullman colours…

 

All the mod cons of the original, fitted as standard.

 

On 13/07/2021 at 20:26, phil-b259 said:

 

Not really. Part of what makes a Pullman a 'proper' Pullman in most peoples eyes is the distinctive shape and styling of the cars. The 5BEL cars, even after their rebuilding still have a strong family resemblance to those used in the Belmond British Pullman. Moreover the end effect (even with said rebuilding will still look a lot more like a genuine 5 BEL unit than a repainted 442 unit.

 

 

Plus 23m long 442 vehicles would probably rule out running on most of the SED so the "Luxury dining experience around the Garden of England" kind of stuff would be a non-starter.

Edited July 15, 2021 by DY444

[Tim Chambers]

21 hours ago, Artless Bodger said:

A few photos from visits to see M&D (parents not busses).

 

East station 16 June 2007

 

465 151 crossing the high level bridge on a terminating stopper. The building on the left, across the river Medway, was Tilling Stevens works, Mum worked in the office as a typist in her younger days.

 

 

465 151 entering platform 3, the bay converted from the old long loading bank in the goods yard, originally for military traffic from the adjacent barracks.

 

 

465 151 arrived. The brick monstrosity behind was built on the site of the 'Wig and Gown' pub / restaurant and the 'Hare and Hounds' the pub blown up by the IRA in 1975. The family had been for a meal in the Wig and Gown that evening, we'd just got back home when we heard the explosion. Luckily a soldier had seen the bomb and the pub and area were evacuated before it went off.

 

 

A 375 just arriving, my train on the first leg home. From other photos I took on the journey, this was the train to Cannon Street, calling West Malling, London Bridge and CS, so a quick trip to London. Then LB to Waterloo, cross to the LSWR and a train to Earley.

 

Grabbed through the window as we approached Hither Green, a 376.

 

2014, going home avoiding London.

 

Maidstone West Station  3/5/2014

 

375 310 arriving from Strood, bound for Tonbridge

 

Tonbridge, 375 310 ready to return to Strood, and a southern 377 for the train on to Redhill.

 

I had a long wait for the Redhill departure, several up and down South Eastern trains passed, this 465 is for Charing Cross, from Hastings iirc.

 

A few 377s at Redhill while waiting for the GW 165 to Reading.

 

In the first and third you can see white stains on the up through, evidence of some chalk pumping through the formation, very noticeable on occasions when Thameslink 319s passed though non-stop at speed after wet weather.

 

 

[Tim Chambers]

Brilliant photos, especially the first one 'cos my Mum worked as a typist at Tilling Stevens too!