It's off to York!

[Steamport Southport]

  

 

Hilux is right - even things yoI've brought you've not included in your price comparison. Will you take less than 3 hours to build the kit?

 

David

 

 

If you build kits then things like paint, transfers, etc are probably already in your stash. Some of us also have plenty of free time. So these things are negligible when it comes to final cost.

 

Three hours to build the kit? Probably not. But how long is it going to take for the RTR version to appear? Some people manage to actually build the kits in that time.

 

 

I'll add that I personally don't think the model is over priced. But I don't want or need one.

 

 

 

Jason

[steve1]

Spoke to man himself this morning and it was a pleasure. I suspect he may well be taking some of my money in the future...

 

steve

[Clearwater]

If you build kits then things like paint, transfers, etc are probably already in your stash. Some of us also have plenty of free time. So these things are negligible when it comes to final cost.

 

Three hours to build the kit? Probably not. But how long is it going to take for the RTR version to appear? Some people manage to actually build the kits in that time.

 

 

I'll add that I personally don't think the model is over priced. But I don't want or need one.

 

 

 

Jason

Other people do not have free time... to make a price comparison on a non like for like basis is not valid. For any product the world over, some people will have some or all of the necessary components to make the product in question. I have flour, yeast, water and an oven. That does not influence what Tesco charge for bread!

[No Decorum]

Hi, Budgie. I was thinking about £85.00, bearing in mind the cost of a new Thompson from Bachmann. I think that is a reasonable amount for an unpowered vehicle. I will be kit-building the car. It will cost the price of the kit. The rest I already have, i.e. time, paint, transfers etc..

 

Rob.

Do I understand you correctly? Is your point not so much that the model is bad value or even that the price is unreasonable (given the complexity) but rather that £85 or so is what you personally would be prepared to pay? If so, I’d agree. I’d also agree with jjb1970’s point that the price is the price; the suppliers can charge what they like and the purchasers can buy or not buy as they like.

[Steamport Southport]

Other people do not have free time... to make a price comparison on a non like for like basis is not valid. For any product the world over, some people will have some or all of the necessary components to make the product in question. I have flour, yeast, water and an oven. That does not influence what Tesco charge for bread!

 

That's not really the point.

 

What something is worth is what somebody is willing to pay for it.

 

Someone has an alternative route that will cost less. Should someone be shouted down because he is willing to do some actual modelling rather than opening a box? He should be getting applauded.

 

 

Jason

[Gerald Henriksen]

That's not really the point.

 

What something is worth is what somebody is willing to pay for it.

 

Someone has an alternative route that will cost less. Should someone be shouted down because he is willing to do some actual modelling rather than opening a box? He should be getting applauded.

 

The problem is not that he is willing / has decided to make a kit, but rather the fact that he seems to think a model with limited appeal (most people won't be interested in buying it at any price, and those who do want it will only buy one) should be priced at the same price as a model that will sell 10x or more as many units because it has wider appeal and will be needed in multiples.

 

When someone decides to have a model made of a prototype that doesn't offer the ability to sell it in large numbers then the natural outcome is a higher price as the expensive parts (molds, etc) have to be paid for with fewer sales.

 

Finally, the concept that making a kit is "actual modelling" is insulting.  Our hobby offers many different ways to participate and kit building (or scratch building) is only one of many ways of enjoying this hobby.  For many of us though time is a constraint, and thus we need to pick and choose where we spend our time and buying the highly detailed models like this allows us to put more time into other areas that interest us more, like building a detailed layout or operating.

[Steamport Southport]

Do people actually read posts?

 

 

A nice model the dynamometer car will be, but for a single unpowered vehicle, the price has, sadly, put me off from even contemplating it. Sorry.

 

Rob.

 

A fairly dignified post that says it's not for hum. Then he gets asked how much he would expect to pay where he replies.

 

Hi, Budgie. I was thinking about £85.00, bearing in mind the cost of a new Thompson from Bachmann. I think that is a reasonable amount for an unpowered vehicle. I will be kit-building the car. It will cost the price of the kit. The rest I already have, i.e. time, paint, transfers etc..

 

Rob.

 

I don't know why anyone is getting upset.

 

Maybe because they only have one option and that is to pay over the odds. Whereas he has another option which costs less.

 

 

Jason

[Wheatley]

Hilux5972, on 16 Apr 2017 - 01:10, said:Hilux5972, on 16 Apr 2017 - 01:10, said:

So the cost in time, paint, transfers etc is not being counted then? .

 

Time -v- Money -v- Satisfaction. There can be no correct answer to this because everybody's take on this particular three-way balance is different, and often varies. For some people these are additional costs to be factored in, for others they are the entire point of the hobby.

 

Gerald Henriksen, on 16 Apr 2017 - 15:08, said:Gerald Henriksen, on 16 Apr 2017 - 15:08, said:

Finally, the concept that making a kit is "actual modelling" is insulting. 

 

Depends how you define 'modelling'. The constant shouting down every time someone suggests making something as opposed to buying it are getting really tiresome, and this site seems to have more than it's fair share of shouters.

 

The only 'correct' price is the one at which Rails get the model they want, to the spec they want, and make the return they want. If that's more than you are prepared to pay then so be it but that's life. I'd love a new Golf GTI but nearly 30 grand is a bit steep for commuting to work so I trundle about in a Skoda. Yes I do think 125 quid for a coach is a lot and if it was a bog standard coach I wouldn't touch it. But this is probably as complex as RTR coach building gets - there are virtually no common or repeating parts on the vehicle, some very subtly complex shapes and a notoriously tricky livery on a shape which doesn't lend itself to tampo printing. If your purchasing choices are based on buying things because they look nice* then it probably is a bit pricey for an impulse buy. But if I was modelling the ECML in LNER/BR(E) days then this is a signature vehicle and I would probably get one, even at that price, because I've stood next to the one in the NRM and thought more than once "I wouldn't fancy scratchbuilding that".

 

(*That isn't an insult before anyone chooses to take offence, most of the world's great art collections were built on this premise).

Edited April 16, 2017 by Wheatley

[micklner]

In this case I have no doubt that the Rapido version will be superior to the only kit that has ever been made . I am only aware of the Dyno Car being  made as a 4mm kit by  D&S Models  ?.

 

I have built the kit and it is not one of D&S best efforts by a long way. Etches are ok , whitemetal castings passable at best. Etches go together ok, due to the complex shape of the sides the side bulges are done in whitemetal and they do not fit very well if at all (that is a polite description). Roof very simple poorly shaped plastic moulding. Interior supplied is only a small part of the actual parts needed to make a decent interior.

 

These kits sold for in the region of £70, add wheels, paint decal and sundries say £100 in total. The one I built took in the region of 15 hours to make. It looked ok ,no more no less. It never had lighting , most of the interior I had to scratch build or simply ignored as I was building it at a price on commission and it wasn't done for £50 I ensure you. 

 

To me if like anything else produced by Rapido at £150 it is a bargain price, why we have this kit v rtr nonsense for ever on here is beyond me. If you like it either way buy it and enjoy built or otherwise. I had another D&S kit ,after the first one it very quickly sold on , never thought at that time I would be buying another one  r.tr.. Well done Rapido and Rails .

 

 

]

Edited April 16, 2017 by micklner

[stewartingram]

My version 2 is ordered. Now, I will need to renumber it to slightly later BR condition (or maybe Rule 1 keep it as it is...).

I'm assuming that the teak finish remained, or was it really repainted into, say, red? If still teak, the number remained the same but with a DE prefix? Does anyone do transfers?

 

Stewart

(At least the model inside the model won't be in a painted finish - just raw 3D print colour)

[JSpencer]

Do people actually read posts?

 

 

 

 

A fairly dignified post that says it's not for hum. Then he gets asked how much he would expect to pay where he replies.

 

 

 

I don't know why anyone is getting upset.

 

Maybe because they only have one option and that is to pay over the odds. Whereas he has another option which costs less.

 

 

Jason

I myself am still contemplating this model. This has nothing to do with whether or not I consider it good value, it is just it has to fight for a place in the modelling budget.

 

That budget used to be set around £500, these days I try to keep that at £800. This year it has exploded:

3 Hornby Merchant Navies,

1 Hornby Ivatt Duchess

2 Hornby H class

1 Bachman H class,

6 Bachmann birdcages

1 Bachmann 4 TC

2 Bachmann war wells

1 Hattons DJM class 71 GA

2 Hattons Warflats

2 Oxfords Warflats

1 Heljan L&B tank

2 maybe 3 Dapol B4 tanks

2 Bullied Diesels

3 sound chips

 

I would love to add the Hornby GA set, Sir Archibald Sinclair, a Bullied Leader plus this car....

 

We,ll see....

[Bomag]

For £125 and all the details listed  I am assuming that the recording wheel works.

[No Decorum]

I myself am still contemplating this model. This has nothing to do with whether or not I consider it good value, it is just it has to fight for a place in the modelling budget.

 

That budget used to be set around £500, these days I try to keep that at £800. This year it has exploded:

3 Hornby Merchant Navies,

1 Hornby Ivatt Duchess

2 Hornby H class

1 Bachman H class,

6 Bachmann birdcages

1 Bachmann 4 TC

2 Bachmann war wells

1 Hattons DJM class 71 GA

2 Hattons Warflats

2 Oxfords Warflats

1 Heljan L&B tank

2 maybe 3 Dapol B4 tanks

2 Bullied Diesels

3 sound chips

 

I would love to add the Hornby GA set, Sir Archibald Sinclair, a Bullied Leader plus this car....

 

We,ll see....

Bang on target, that post. Certain similarities to my list, certain differences. What is really getting my goat, though, is my “one sound project a month” programme is in tatters. One a month is nowhere near enough but the sound decoders will always be there, the juicy models will not be.

 

Yours (financially) creakily,

 

ND.

[Phil Parker]

Well he made it.

 

 

And I enjoyed a very nice chat too. Nice to meet the member of the team who isn't so sartorialy challenged...

 

Photos of the models on the appropriate threads in a few minutes.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Phil Parker

[JSpencer]

Bang on target, that post. Certain similarities to my list, certain differences. What is really getting my goat, though, is my “one sound project a month” programme is in tatters. One a month is nowhere near enough but the sound decoders will always be there, the juicy models will not be.

 

Yours (financially) creakily,

 

ND.

I originally had 6 proper sound projects for this year and the only reason 3 remain is that they are replaced by TTS ones! 3 locos of that list will get sound at some point but not this year.

The strange thing is, this coach is something I always wanted as a kid! I had a Hornby Mallard and 4 teak coaches (still have them now for keeps sake but not used these days). Now imagine running this super fine coach behind Hornby's 80s A4 and teak coaches!

 

The other strange thing is, when I brought the Deven belle observation coach a few years back, I thought to myself, this will be the most expensive coach I will buy. Now surpassed by birdcage stock, the ex LMS inspection saloon and Kernow push pull sets (dam, missed them off the list above).

If (or rather when) I get this Dynamometer car, I will doubtless think the same "my most expensive coach". Could someone do something more expensive?

Edited April 17, 2017 by JSpencer

[Legend]

Well you know I'm always challenging prices, but I have to say I can see how this model can get to £125. It is a one off (ok there are two versions so it's a two off!). It follows that there will be limited sales, so presumably the development costs have to be spread over a much lower number of sales . So I get it, more than an auto coach, for instance , where although some will buy just one, there are others that have bought multiples, so volumes for an auto coach will be a good bit higher. But despite the apparent clamour on here the Dyno is a fairly specialised model that will not sell in quantity.

 

If I have a fear it's that the apparent clamour gives the impression that modellers will pay any price , and that that leads to others increasing prices etc.

 

Comparisons to how much it would cost to build a kit are spurious . This is a manufactured item from a series of mouldings .any comparisons should be against something that is similarly made, and as I said the volumes for this must be quite low, forcing price up. It is not assembled from brass. It entirely depends on your motivation, you might actually get satisfaction building kits and may indeed have all the paint and bits handy.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Legend

[micklner]

Well you know I'm always challenging prices, but I have to say I can see how this model can get to £125. It is a one off (ok there are two versions so it's a two off!). It follows that there will be limited sales, so presumably the development costs have to be spread over a much lower number of sales . So I get it, more than an auto coach, for instance , where although some will buy just one, there are others that have bought multiples, so volumes for an auto coach will be a good bit higher. But despite the apparent clamour on here the Dyno is a fairly specialised model that will not sell in quantity.

 

If I have a fear it's that the apparent clamour gives the impression that modellers will pay any price , and that that leads to others increasing prices etc.

 

Comparisons to how much it would cost to build a kit are spurious . This is a manufactured item from a series of mouldings .any comparisons should be against something that is similarly made, and as I said the volumes for this must be quite low, forcing price up. It is not assembled from brass. It entirely depends on your motivation, you might actually get satisfaction building kits and may indeed have all the paint and bits handy.

 

Full of contradictions!, I dont like paying either no one does , but thats life . Easy choice anyway ,buy or dont end off, it hardly needs yet another comment on here , its been said hundreds of times before.

 

My point I made earlier sums it up. The only kit isn't very good and I doubt very much if another kit will ever be made in the future. The kit wouldn't be much cheaper (if you found one, there is one on ebay already since this announcement) and then to build using your own time , as to satisfaction everybody to their own desires. 

[Clearwater]

For those who want to put their money where their mouth is, kit is currently on eBay

 

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/D-S-KIT-Extremely-Rare-New-NER-LNER-Dynamometer-Car-4mm-OO-EM-P4-/252870916307?hash=item3ae047f8d3%3Ag%3A1ZMAAOSwSypY80O4&_trkparms=pageci%253A4872d804-240d-11e7-8767-74dbd18010e2%257Cparentrq%253A8015040115b0a6a92879756ffff3dc5d%257Ciid%253A6

 

Usual disclaimers - no connection to seller etc

[Steamport Southport]

Sold for £83 + P&P with eight bidders. Only a couple of which had lowish bids. None from me as I've already pointed out I don't want one.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/bfl/viewbids/252870916307?item=252870916307&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

 

 

So there are still people out there that prefer to build kits rather than buy RTR. Point proven I think.

 

 

Jason

[Clearwater]

Sold for £83 + P&P with eight bidders. Only a couple of which had lowish bids. None from me as I've already pointed out I don't want one.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/bfl/viewbids/252870916307?item=252870916307&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

 

 

So there are still people out there that prefer to build kits rather than buy RTR. Point proven I think.

 

 

Jason

I'm sorry Jason - there is no point to prove on that score.

There are literally hundreds of duplications where a kit and rtr are both available of the same prototype. The nature of a constructional hobby is some people prefer to make something like rolling stock but not eg scenery and some do not have the skills to make a kit to the standard they would want. It's good for the hobby for both strands to survive and proposer.

 

In any event, the number of kits for sale on the link above is 1. I suspect Rails/Rapido aim to sell rather more than that. I'd wager that they'll sell more than the total number of D&S kits ever produced of this prototype.

 

To me; there is no debate here. There's no answer as which is better between make/buy. Different people have different preferences. To say the sale of one kit (for a price in excess of most rtr coaches, and indeed most available kits) simply does not prove your point one way or the other.

[micklner]

£83, they went for far more at one time before D&S did another run a few years ago at £70 a time, with inflation the kit hasn't gone up at all in value. Eight bids on a "rare" item is very poor result/response for the seller.  D&S old whitemetal  GER vans sell at £40 a time on ebay, that in comparison is a serious mark up in perceived value by some buyers.

 

 If anybody one wants another Dyno model, there is another one for sale on the LNER forum as of today. Haven't seen one offered for a long time , two for sale within a week of the r.t.r version being announced !!.

Edited April 24, 2017 by micklner