New brand, new model - Rails Limited - LNER Dynamometer car

[GreenGiraffe22]

Are there no written records archived anywhere? Presumably the painters in the carriage factory had some sort of design / instructions / diagram to follow to know what lining they were or weren't painting ...?

[scots region]

Are there no written records archived anywhere? Presumably the painters in the carriage factory had some sort of design / instructions / diagram to follow to know what lining they were or weren't painting ...?

Unfortunately a lot of that stuff tends to end up in the bonfire whenever new management takes over, or the place closes.

[mdvle]

I believe you can show a photo for research purposes anyway ?. Copyright is more about preventing financial loss to the owner.

 

Putting a picture ("publishing") on RMweb could cause financial loss to the owner by denying them sales to people who have taken the opportunity to grab the photo for free off of RMweb instead of buying a book or the photo directly.

 

More specifically see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright and note that there is no mention at all about sharing photographs for research purposes.

[micklner]

Putting a picture ("publishing") on RMweb could cause financial loss to the owner by denying them sales to people who have taken the opportunity to grab the photo for free off of RMweb instead of buying a book or the photo directly.

 

More specifically see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright and note that there is no mention at all about sharing photographs for research purposes.

 

 

0. Copying works for research and private study

   Copyright law recognises that researchers and students may legitimately need to copy limited extracts of copyright works for the purpose of their studies. Therefore, the law already allowed researchers and students to copy limited extracts of some types of copyright works (books, plays and musical scores, picture and photos, literary, dramatic musical and artistic works) as long as

   they are carrying out non-commercial research or private study. Librarians are permitted to assist researchers and students by providing limited copies of these types of copyright works.

 

Non commercial 

[Andy Y]

Non commercial [/size]

 

But it doesn't excuse it here and I make my views very clear on copyright material usage in the forum rules. It is right to link to material (so its source can be seen) rather than copying and re-posting.

[mdvle]

 

0. Copying works for research and private study

   Copyright law recognises that researchers and students may legitimately need to copy limited extracts of copyright works for the purpose of their studies. Therefore, the law already allowed researchers and students to copy limited extracts of some types of copyright works (books, plays and musical scores, picture and photos, literary, dramatic musical and artistic works) as long as

   they are carrying out non-commercial research or private study. Librarians are permitted to assist researchers and students by providing limited copies of these types of copyright works.

 

Non commercial 

 

 

Key point - that is not sharing, nor is it showing.

 

What it is saying is that you can make make a copy for your own personal use when doing research (traditionally photocopying) with the provision that it is "limited" (ie. you can't legally copy an entire book and claim it is for research, but you can copy a small portion) and that the research is non-commercial.  

 

Nowhere does it say you may then share those research materials with others.

 

And as I mentioned, even if (which you are not) you were allowed to show others the material putting onto the web would not be allowed as it would be considered publishing given that there are no restrictions on who would have access to it.

[rapidobill]

Are there no written records archived anywhere? Presumably the painters in the carriage factory had some sort of design / instructions / diagram to follow to know what lining they were or weren't painting ...?

 

Stay off of the forum for a few days and look what happens...! 

 

Throughout the research on this project we both corresponded with and visited the NRM, met with the conservation people there several times and corresponded with several LNER experts on the issue of livery - specifically the lining (or lack thereof). While we could find no definitive information that exactly indicated the livery in 1938, we did find a large amount of circumstantial evidence that guided the livery choices on the models.

 

- What everybody seems to be in agreement with (even on this forum!) is that between 1938 and 1948 the car received no major repainting with the exception of the number change.

 

- The conservation experts at NRM that we consulted with indicated the car was restored into the livery that it was retired in and NRM documentation seems to support this. 

 

So - working backwards, if we assume that the car has no lining now (It doesn't) and that the NRM was diligent in the restoration (they seem to have been) and that the car was not repainted significantly during the war years (as shop records indicate), then it would follow that the vehicle was not lined in 1938. 

 

Further, it is my understanding (and I'm sure that I will be corrected!) that LNER post-1928 or so did not line secondary or non-passenger carrying stock. 

 

We were NOT able to find any livery diagrams that covered this car specifically so had to base our livery decisions on the information we were presented with - which concluded that for one of a few possible reasons the vehicle would not have been lined in 1938. Vintage colour photos on Steve Bank's web site - https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/133-teak-coaches (scroll down about half way) seem to support a lack of lining.

 

The photos posted from the Pathe film are clearly from a period before the car was re-shopped as they feature the earlier bogies and no gangway connections. As such, they are not really relevant to either the 1938 or 1948 appearance of the vehicle.

 

I will now crawl into my bunker and await incoming rounds....!

 

Bill Schneider

Rapido Trains

Edited June 21, 2018 by rapidobill

[teaky]

Thanks for the information Bill.

 

I assume the reference to Steve Banks' website is just to confirm that NPCS was not lined or have I missed a dynamometer car picture?

 

I follow the reasoning behind the decision not to line the model but still can't shake the impression from the images in post #389 that thin yellow lining was there.

 

It looks like a great model and I am still looking forward to receiving the one I've ordered.

[stewartingram]

Now a question - getting away from the lining issue!

 

When in use, did the vehicle have to be a particular way round? In other words, if doing a recording southbound, did it have to be turned before returning north (assuming another recording being done),

 

Stewart

[Colin_McLeod]

Only if it was lined on just one side :)

[rapidobill]

Now a question - getting away from the lining issue!

 

When in use, did the vehicle have to be a particular way round? In other words, if doing a recording southbound, did it have to be turned before returning north (assuming another recording being done),

 

Stewart

 

The recording gear inside all seems to be oriented towards and connected to the drawbar at the same end of the car as the instrument room (the one with the ducket fitted in later years). Additionally the plugs for the instrumentation were on that end only. So - I'm going to venture a guess (HORRORS!) that yes - that end would always be towards the loco during a test.

 

Bill. 

[MikeTrice]

- The conservation experts at NRM that we consulted with indicated the car was restored into the livery that it was retired in and NRM documentation seems to support this. 

 

Unfortunately that is not true. The DC was rebranded in September 1948. All the ex LNER lettering was removed and BR style "DYNAMOMETER" lettering was placed on the side blisters with the number E902502 placed on the left end so that would be the livery it was retired in and yes at that point it was not lined. There is an official photograph in their collection showing the vehicle in this final state.

 

Latter half of 1963 it was sent to Darlington for preparation for display in Clapham. Likely to have only involved regraining the panels containing the BR lettering and you can just make out the different finish on these. LNER lettering restored. The "Dynamometer Car" lettering (which is hand painted) is not quite in the same place and some of the letters are slightly different, it being incorrect on both sides.

 

I am saying this just to set the record straight. As far as the model is concerned what is done is done.

 

P.S Rather than add this as another post, as mentioned earlier when Mallard was prepared for display at Clapham the wrong size of transfer was used on the front casing (4 1/2" rather than 6"). Every subsequent repaint they have maintained this error as the painter used photographs of Mallard as it was just prior to the repaint. Had those experts consulted their extensive photograph library of Mallard (and other A4s) in 1938 the error would be apparent. Unfortunately other restored A4s have at times used Mallard as a reference for their restorations and perpetrated the error.

Edited June 21, 2018 by MikeTrice

[coachmann]

And finally an extract from 1938 and Mallard's run:

hoather_dynamometer detail.jpg

 

Without any shadow of doubt, that coach carried lining in 1938....

[Legend]

So if the coach had lining in 1938 , and from Coachmanns pic it does look that way, I assume that means that it’s not accurate to run behind Mallard, but at what point did the lining disappear ie what period is the model accurate to?

Edited June 22, 2018 by Legend

[MikeTrice]

An enlargement/extract from the image at the front of C J Allen's book:

 

 

Unfortunately I do not have a better quality image.

[CathcartCircle]

To me in Coachman's picture the lining just looks like sunlight reflected off of the beading! It does not go round the entire panel which it would do if it was painted lining!

[jwealleans]

On the top panels? There is no raised beading there, just the edge of a recess. The paler line can’t be anything but lining.

[coachmann]

To me in Coachman's picture the lining just looks like sunlight reflected off of the beading! It does not go round the entire panel which it would do if it was painted lining!

Give me strength!

[Colin_McLeod]

If it's this difficult to tell whether or not the coach in a photograph is lined or not, then the lining, if it exists, is so subtle that its a waste of time.

[teaky]

If it's this difficult to tell whether or not the coach in a photograph is lined or not, then the lining, if it exists, is so subtle that its a waste of time.

Post #389 includes examples of other coaches with the kind of narrow lining the dynamometer car is suspected of having.  Subtle - yes.  Waste of time - I for one don't think so.

[Ian J.]

Those pictures above seem to me to show that the panels are recessed with beading that reflects daylight where the angle is right for that, or leaves a shadow where it isn't. However, it also appears that there is a very thin feint line around the panels as well. It appears, to me at least, to be so difficult to tell due to the white of the black and white image being the same shade for both the lining and the beading.

 

Edit: Coachmann's picture particularly shows the raised edge to the large windows, which don't have lining but do show daylight on their insides/outsides. The other panels/windows seem to me to have a consistent feint light line around them that would not be consistent with daylight reflecting off a raised beading.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Ian J.

[cctransuk]

Those pictures above seem to me to show that the panels are recessed with beading that reflects daylight where the angle is right for that, or leaves a shadow where it isn't. However, it also appears that there is a very thin feint line around the panels as well. It appears, to me at least, to be so difficult to tell due to the white of the black and white image being the same shade for both the lining and the beading.

 

Edit: Coachmann's picture particularly shows the raised edge to the large windows, which don't have lining but do show daylight on their insides/outsides. The other panels/windows seem to me to have a consistent feint light line around them that would not be consistent with daylight reflecting off a raised beading.

 

Regardless of all the above breast-beating, those who have ordered it - and don't cancel - will get what the supplier has ordered from the manufacturer.

 

Those (happy?) recipients who believe the model should have lining can :-

 

a] add the (alleged) lining;

 

b] pay someone else to add the (alleged) lining;

 

c] squint their eyes so that they cannot tell whether it has (alleged) lining or not.

 

I would recommend the latter course of action - especially as all this squinting at photos will probably not allow you to un-squint by the time that you receive the model.

 

Me? I have no interest in the model and have not ordered one, so I remain blithly oblivious to this world-shattering conundrum.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Denbridge]

Theyve been made and are on their way. Why the continued bleating over something that wont be changed is tiresome.

[Steamport Southport]

Mustn't bite.

 

 

 

Jason

[Colin_McLeod]

Regardless of all the above breast-beating, those who have ordered it - and don't cancel - will get what the supplier has ordered from the manufacturer.

 

Those (happy?) recipients who believe the model should have lining can :-

 

a] add the (alleged) lining;

 

b] pay someone else to add the (alleged) lining;

 

c] squint their eyes so that they cannot tell whether it has (alleged) lining or not.

 

I would recommend the latter course of action - especially as all this squinting at photos will probably not allow you to un-squint by the time that you receive the model.

 

Me? I have no interest in the model and have not ordered one, so I remain blithly oblivious to this world-shattering conundrum.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Option d)

Set up a sunlamp that will reflect off the edge of the beading.