New brand, new model - Rails Limited - LNER Dynamometer car

[adb968008]

In a word.. no. Won't work.

 

If a picture is worth a thousand words, then here's two thousand:

 

This is taken from my drawing of the chassis. The upper view is on straight track - no problem. The lower view is superimposed on R2 track. You can see that the 9th wheel (yellow) is WELL inside the gauge, and also just how far it (and everything attached to it) would have to move laterally (out or in!) to make it work. Also, any abrupt vertical transition could have the effect of high-centering the car, leaving it tottering on the wheel.

 

The instrumented wheel was only lowered during recording runs, so our story is that the car is modelled as it would be en route to its next gig. ;>)

 

Bill

Again thanks for taking the time explaining.

I think I could rig something to counter that, but I'll accept the storyline, as it'll take me a day or two to make it.

(I may do anyways just for fun, but I'll leave my making point here).

 

as for DCC, I don't know where sound came from, I was thinking light control, raising/lowering wheel, opening a door (heightened expectations and all) but I'd settle for clickerty clack, doors and a general people conversation if it were sound myself.

 

I see some are making fun of my suggestion, so I'll end it with this is what Europeans are now getting. (£500 inc 3 coaches and the loco all Sound, lights, operable doors and pantographs), 145 Euros today for that coach with opening doors, DCC lights and sound, though unsurprisingly it's sold out.

https://youtu.be/BYUnS5FYAqg

 

As it is, we're getting what we're getting and I'm sure many will be ok with it, the last responses certainly cleared up some concerns, reading some other posts I don't think the UK market is ready for this kind of evolution (that model in the video was first produced in 2009).

 

As I said I didn't want to cause a fuss, but my opinion is this coach could be much more, but I don't want to rock the boat. I wish the model the best and look forwards to the painted samples. Thanks for the detailed responses though they are appreciated, I think that everyone here would agree.

Edited September 19, 2017 by adb968008

[cctransuk]

I see some are making fun of my suggestion .....

 

Are you surprised?

 

That Roco starter set is the most unrealistic thing that I've ever seen. Doors that flick open open and shut at the speed of sound, without human intervention, thereby decapitating anyone standing on the platform?

 

I suppose that you'll be asking for mini-automatons to ascend and descend the coach steps next?

 

Have you ever seen a 1:1 pantograph raised and lowered? If they shot up like that they'd wreck the catenary!

 

I really thought that your initial post was a spoof - only the fact that you persisted in the face of sound reasoning convinced me otherwise.

 

I know that, in truth, we all 'play trains' - but really?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[rapidobill]

Is that in the Toilet ??

We forgot the toilet paper roll!!!! This will delay the project while we fix the tooling..... Edited September 19, 2017 by rapidobill

[rapidobill]

as for DCC, I don't know where sound came from, I was thinking light control, raising/lowering wheel, opening a door (heightened expectations and all) but I'd settle for clickerty clack, doors and a general people conversation if it were sound myself.

 

I see some are making fun of my suggestion, so I'll end it with this is what Europeans are now getting. (£500 inc 3 coaches and the loco all Sound, lights, operable doors and pantographs), 145 Euros today for that coach with opening doors, DCC lights and sound, though unsurprisingly it's sold out.

 

Interestingly, the only item on this train that we don't already have (or have announced) is the working doors. Our upcoming New Haven EP-5 electric will have operating DCC pantographs (slower than those I hope), our existing cars - and the Dynomometer car - have full interiors and lighting, and all of our HO, OO and N locos offer DC/DCC sound options.

 

We have looked at opening doors on various projects, but my personal feeling is that the design requirements to make them work end up creating unsightly gaps around the doors. Jason doesn't agree with me on this (!) and is looking into this for a future project....

Bill

Edited September 19, 2017 by rapidobill

[Steamport Southport]

Seeing as we are now talking about gimmicks, can we have a new Giraffe Car please?   

 

http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/giraffe2.html

 

 

 

 

Jason

[SRman]

Are you surprised?

 

That Roco starter set is the most unrealistic thing that I've ever seen. Doors that flick open open and shut at the speed of sound, without human intervention, thereby decapitating anyone standing on the platform?

 

I suppose that you'll be asking for mini-automatons to ascend and descend the coach steps next?

 

Have you ever seen a 1:1 pantograph raised and lowered? If they shot up like that they'd wreck the catenary!

 

I really thought that your initial post was a spoof - only the fact that you persisted in the face of sound reasoning convinced me otherwise.

 

I know that, in truth, we all 'play trains' - but really?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Watching the panto raising and lowering at Farringdon Thameslink, some of the newer trains seem to do it at those speeds, and they drop with quite a clunk too.

 

Link to YouTube (not my video):

[Gerald Henriksen]

as for DCC, I don't know where sound came from, I was thinking light control, raising/lowering wheel, opening a door (heightened expectations and all) but I'd settle for clickerty clack, doors and a general people conversation if it were sound myself.

 

I see some are making fun of my suggestion, so I'll end it with this is what Europeans are now getting. (£500 inc 3 coaches and the loco all Sound, lights, operable doors and pantographs), 145 Euros today for that coach with opening doors, DCC lights and sound, though unsurprisingly it's sold out.

https://youtu.be/BYUnS5FYAqg

I wasn't making fun of your suggestions, but rather just pointing out (as Bill did so well) that the compromises inherent in a small scale model (and by that I mean anything G or smaller) mean that a lot of stuff just doesn't work.

 

As for the comment regarding the video, I would argue it is not what Europeans are currently getting.  I just went through the Roco 2017 catalogs and none of the passenger coaches list opening doors as a feature, and none of the electric locos list operating pantographs, though they do all list flywheels and lighting, something that even many/most British models have.  So it appears to have been a one off model that while maybe popular, wasn't popular enough to justify expanding it (unless the catalogs are misleading and simply chose not to mention a major set of features).

 

As for the opening doors in particular, take a look at the door at the 1:12 mark of the video and look at that huge gap at the top of the door.  It wrecks the look of what otherwise looks like a reasonable model.  At about 1/2 mm that works out to 4.5 cm / 1.77" in the real life, and no real coach would go around with that sort of gap.

 

There is a line between increasing the realism of a model, and turning the model into a toy, and clearly that model crossed into the toy side.

 

As it is, we're getting what we're getting and I'm sure many will be ok with it, the last responses certainly cleared up some concerns, reading some other posts I don't think the UK market is ready for this kind of evolution (that model in the video was first produced in 2009).

 

As I said I didn't want to cause a fuss, but my opinion is this coach could be much more, but I don't want to rock the boat. I wish the model the best and look forwards to the painted samples. Thanks for the detailed responses though they are appreciated, I think that everyone here would agree.

Look, I get where you are coming from, and I agree their are issues with what people are willing to accept.  I have argued a few times on this forum about this sort of thing, most recently with a (to me) disappointing steam announcement that looks more toy like than a cheaper competitor (albeit different prototype).

 

But there is also a big question of whether something is a genuine improvement in a model, or just a gimmick.  To me part of the bar that a new feature needs to pass is that it doesn't make the model "worse" in the visual department.

[Roy Langridge]

What it must be like to be a manufacturer / retailer. It seems to me that whatever they do people will be unhappy. We have complaints that models need a proper gear train / "proper" motor (non-coreless) and then complaints about how it is executed. Desires that a loco should go slow / same loco should go fast. Complaints about the additional costs of lighting and then requests for opening doors. Complaints about price... (All of these taken from the past week's posts in various threads)

 

Sure we CAN have everything, but at what cost? Every added feature will add more cost. Some, to me, are essential (lighting), some are acceptable (pre-populated passengers), some not needed. What I will not do is criticise others for wanting features that I don't need (raising pantographs for example) as we each have our own desires. What I do find unacceptable is the constant haranguing of those who have to make the decisions on cost / feature balance. Generally these people know what they are doing, know their costs, know their margins etc. To ask them to add features and reduce the price is not on.

 

As for this project specifically, it looks stunning - nowhere near "average" as it has been described above. As for its price, it is expensive yes, but as has been said, it will sell in relatively few numbers.

 

As for the video / Roco train set. I wonder at why the video is 8 years old, the sets are "sold out" and some of the features seem not to be listed anymore. To me that is probably indicative of them not being wanted by the masses, not that they are.

 

Roy

[No Decorum]

 

Watching the panto raising and lowering at Farringdon Thameslink, some of the newer trains seem to do it at those speeds, and they drop with quite a clunk too.

 

Link to YouTube (not my video):

Thank you for posting that link. I enjoyed the video more than a part of me thinks I should!

[micklner]

All we need is descent steam/exhaust effects . Current Sound is just dire , it doesn't sound slightly realistic, just a god awful racket. Now back to the Toilet Roll design. 

[JSpencer]

I'm expecting the model to come with scale people that actually walk onto the coach to their respective positions when it stops at the platform and the doors open. I even expect to see 1/76th scale hands turn the 1/76th scale door knobs and one person to drinking tea from a tea cup.

 

Oooops sorry just realized we are in the 21st century not the 23rd! Too much Star Trek....

[Bucoops]

I'm expecting when it reaches a scale 126MPH it triggers a big end overheat for maximum realism.

 

Or alternatively when it hits 88 MPH it whizzes back to 1938.

[adb968008]

There's some really vindictive people in this community isn't there ?

This is supposed to be a creative hobby.

 

At the end of the day all I did was break ranks and express some concern, some of which was addressed (and everyone now knows about lights, sprung buffers etc), I'd rather take the risk to hope for better, than sit back wait for release and berate someone's efforts and sink their sales.. a trait many here try to earn badges doing.

 

I stayed polite, withdrew and maintained my dignity, I also respect the manufacturers statement and input, unlike many others here, I am also conscious to avoid not bearing grudges or agendas unlike several here.

 

So if everyone's all fine and dandy with the EP, let's hope the same stay Schmum when it's released eh ?

please.

Edited September 20, 2017 by adb968008

[cctransuk]

There's some really vindictive people in this community isn't there ?

 

 

Not really - just a little more realistic.

 

Progress is great - so long as it enhances realism. Frankly, automatically opening doors when no-one or nothing gets on or off would be a step backwards in realism.

 

Similarly, suggesting that the fifth wheel should somehow rotate and stay on the rail on model railway radii - let alone toy train curves - is indicative that the practicalities have not been thought through.

 

By all means aspire to greater things - but think through the reality of what you are asking for before posting.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[SRman]

Thank you for posting that link. I enjoyed the video more than a part of me thinks I should!

 

There's no help for the likes of you and me - I thoroughly enjoyed it too!   

Edited September 20, 2017 by SRman

[sjgardiner]

We have looked at opening doors on various projects, but my personal feeling is that the design requirements to make them work end up creating unsightly gaps around the doors. Jason doesn't agree with me on this (!) and is looking into this for a future project....

Bill

 

Well, as long as the project is Jason's 1:1 Scale Turbo Train New Build, it probably should have opening doors, anything else, perhaps less so.

 

Stephen

[Bucoops]

I'll be happy if - 

 

It looks about right - the 9th wheel is obviously a fundamental part of the car but to make it actually be in contact with the rail is asking too much when curves on model track are significantly sharper than real life. The teak effect is also a big consideration. It has crossed my mind that as this is a unique item - in theory the actual wood grain needs to be replicated. Just look at the photos Bill has posted at the top of page 7 - very distinctive grain. But then are the panels that are on the body now the same ones as 1938 (I'm going to keep quoting that year as that's the version I have ordered). Yet I think that may also be asking too much? Hopefully not but I won't let it disappoint me. Individual detail items such as steps etc. should be straightforward to get right.

 

It's reasonably robust. My fear with a lot of finely detailed models is they are easily vulnerable to damage. As careful as you are, one little knock can cause all sorts of mischief.

 

It's successful - it's clear a LOT of work has gone into this project. I really hope it's a great success and spurs on further similar projects.

 

Suggestion for next project - what were the actual coaches behind the dynamometer car for the record run?

[Colin_McLeod]

While it might be impractical to have the 9th wheel in contact with the rail, it should be possible to make it rotate. Whether that would add or subtract realism is another debate.

[micklner]

While it might be impractical to have the 9th wheel in contact with the rail, it should be possible to make it rotate. Whether that would add or subtract realism is another debate.

 

Pointless exercise it would stop spinning as soon as it hit a curve. It would be better with the wheel darkened as well , being white it draws the eye too it far too much.

 

 

Re Teak effect it is not the original paint , I believe BR painted it when in was preserved.

[Colin_McLeod]

I meant powered by its own motor which could be turned on and off using DCC

[micklner]

I meant powered by its own motor which could be turned on and off using DCC

 

Sorry!!, it would look really great spinning on the bends (not).

[adb968008]

By all means aspire to greater things - but think through the reality of what you are asking for before posting.

No, I wont.

 

The hobby is built on dreams, made in to reality.

I don't critise other people's dreams just because they don't agree with (or scare) my own comfort zone.

 

30 years ago Zero1 was the ultimate in the hobby and was never going to be improved.

The first chuff chuff sounds on a B12 tender were a joke, but people still bought it, as it was reality.

today both are combined and people readily pay £200+ a time for it. DCC Sound.

That's today's reality.

 

I work on Augmented and Virtual reality software, 3D to me is now old school and out of date, so are "computer games".

 

Some day you might wear an ordinary pair of glasses, look at your platform, and see smoke escaping the coach, passengers walk the platform, baggage handlers manage their trolleys, and yes the carriage doors might open slower, or be slammed shut powered by a hexbug sized motor. You might even blow a whistle to a sound activated speaker, that starts the train moving using your wifi rather than DCC, and the sound might come out of several speakers under your boards in surround sound, and you will even be able to video it.. as you watch it. Your loco leaks virtual steam (no suethe lampoil needed) and it might chuff with real 1960's recorded sound viewed through glasses with an original 1960's video back scene, the wheels might slip to virtual regulator controls, inducing virtual steam/smoke. The locos themselves powered by wirelessly charged miniature batteries that take seconds to charge.

 

You may not need anything other than off the shelf software / hardware from Amazon to do it, and your train collection.

 

Then you might think differently about perceptions of what is forwards and backwards to realism in the hobby.

 

You may look back at coaches with hook/loop couplings as quaint and old, not to mention roofs that cannot be removed, doors that can't be opened etc.

 

If you look on YouTube today kids all ages are making home movies using toys to enact a story, tomorrow they will use AR/VR to make Hollywood effect quality movies, and for those who are enthusiasts.. they may be using their models too, but only if the hobby limps it's technology forwards to allow the hardware to enable the imaginations unlocked by software.

 

I hope my dreams don't scare you or bring too much derision from people on here, as my company spends $mns annually on investing in this kind of tech and it will come to market, all it needs is each persons imagination to implement it when it does.

 

I've over 600 locos in my worldwide collection, but I stayed away from scenery and DCC by nature of my own job and the potential I've seen. (That and like everyone else in my age group..we don't have/family commitments and in many cases money, to do it), which is why such tech is being invented.. it makes impossible possible.

 

If your not sure what I'm on about, this is about as primitive as it starts..

https://youtu.be/voB-oaudsbI

https://youtu.be/LM0T6hLH15k

Now remove the iPad, wear a normal pair of glasses (with AR) and replace its augmented pictures (cartoons to old folk) with overplayed video and sound, and walk around your layout to your hearts content, talk to Alexa and tell it to run a command that shunts your train, magnet release couplings, the station tannoy announces it to passengers, see the animation and yes open and close the train doors before it departs. Today your stations in the mountains, tomorrow is a suburban rush hour commuter platform packed with people.., and S&C location, followed by an S&D one, all moving round, one day is sunny, another is evening, it might even be snowing all with the same stock, track, in the dark loft without any scenery.

 

If my suggestion at opening doors or having an extra wheel spin, frightens people on here, you don't want to see what walks round my employers offices, sorry if my thinking is wildly ahead of some, but don't tell me or anyone else to stop thinking.

 

 

Off topic, not half, so let's not discuss or make fun of this eh as this threads not about potential (several people made that clear), it's just about a coach, that [edit for clarity] some other posts here suggest [/edit] should be basic and nothing more.

Edited September 21, 2017 by adb968008

[Gerald Henriksen]

this threads not about potential (several people made that clear), it's just about a coach, that should be basic and nothing more.

Sorry, but I have to comment on this because you could not be more wrong.

 

I have followed Rapido Trains (for those not closely following the company making the model for Rails of Sheffield) from the beginning, more specifically following Jason Shron (the founder of Rapido) since prior to the company existing in its current form and he was still working on his postgraduate degree in Birmingham.

 

The one thing that has been consistent throughout that time is that Jason, and thus by extension Rapido and all of its employees, constantly strive to improve the realism of the models - and Jason has taken a lot of flak publicly over the years about his attention to detail and what a part of the hobby view as frivolous extras.

 

If it physically can be done to improve the accuracy of the model, Rapido is the company that will do it.

 

The esteem Rapido is held in the hobby for the quality of the products was demonstrated today by a post on a different website, where someone is looking for a "Rapido Quality" model:

http://atlasrescueforum.proboards.com/thread/5743/rapido-quality-caboose

 

Thus, even though we haven't seen the finished thing, I feel confident that the end model will be the best possible model given the current state of manufacturing ability.

 

In fact, I personally would go further and state that Rapido is the only company that I would unconditionally pre-order any model from sight unseen if I had a need/wanted said model.

[JSpencer]

No, I wont.

The hobby is built on dreams, made in to reality.

I don't critise other people's dreams just because they don't agree with (or scare) my own comfort zone.

30 years ago Zero1 was the ultimate in the hobby and was never going to be improved.

The first chuff chuff sounds on a B12 tender were a joke, but people still bought it, as it was reality.

today both are combined and people readily pay £200+ a time for it. DCC Sound.

That's today's reality.

I work on Augmented and Virtual reality software, 3D to me is now old school and out of date, so are "computer games".

Some day you might wear an ordinary pair of glasses, look at your platform, and see smoke escaping the coach, passengers walk the platform, baggage handlers manage their trolleys, and yes the carriage doors might open slower, or be slammed shut powered by a hexbug sized motor. You might even blow a whistle to a sound activated speaker, that starts the train moving using your wifi rather than DCC, and the sound might come out of several speakers under your boards in surround sound, and you will even be able to video it.. as you watch it. Your loco leaks virtual steam (no suethe lampoil needed) and it might chuff with real 1960's recorded sound viewed through glasses with an original 1960's video back scene, the wheels might slip to virtual regulator controls, inducing virtual steam/smoke. The locos themselves powered by wirelessly charged miniature batteries that take seconds to charge.

You may not need anything other than off the shelf software / hardware from Amazon to do it, and your train collection.

Then you might think differently about perceptions of what is forwards and backwards to realism in the hobby.

You may look back at coaches with hook/loop couplings as quaint and old, not to mention roofs that cannot be removed, doors that can't be opened etc.

If you look on YouTube today kids all ages are making home movies using toys to enact a story, tomorrow they will use AR/VR to make Hollywood effect quality movies, and for those who are enthusiasts.. they may be using their models too, but only if the hobby limps it's technology forwards to allow the hardware to enable the imaginations unlocked by software.

I hope my dreams don't scare you or bring too much derision from people on here, as my company spends $mns annually on investing in this kind of tech and it will come to market, all it needs is each persons imagination to implement it when it does.

I've over 600 locos in my worldwide collection, but I stayed away from scenery and DCC by nature of my own job and the potential I've seen. (That and like everyone else in my age group..we don't have/family commitments and in many cases money, to do it), which is why such tech is being invented.. it makes impossible possible.

If your not sure what I'm on about, this is about as primitive as it starts..https://youtu.be/voB-oaudsbIhttps://youtu.be/LM0T6hLH15k

Now remove the iPad, wear a normal pair of glasses (with AR) and replace its augmented pictures (cartoons to old folk) with overplayed video and sound, and walk around your layout to your hearts content, talk to Alexa and tell it to run a command that shunts your train, magnet release couplings, the station tannoy announces it to passengers, see the animation and yes open and close the train doors before it departs. Today your stations in the mountains, tomorrow is a suburban rush hour commuter platform packed with people.., and S&C location, followed by an S&D one, all moving round, one day is sunny, another is evening, it might even be snowing all with the same stock, track, in the dark loft without any scenery.

If my suggestion at opening doors or having an extra wheel spin, frightens people on here, you don't want to see what walks round my employers offices, sorry if my thinking is wildly ahead of some, but don't tell me or anyone else to stop thinking.

Off topic, not half, so let's not discuss or make fun of this eh as this threads not about potential (several people made that clear), it's just about a coach, that should be basic and nothing more.

I now do 360 videos. The point is though, with that tech, one can set up a virtual model railway, and get to the point of having even touch interaction. You can choose the scale you want, any loco, rolling stock, station, era. People wearing similar glasses can look at the same thing. All of that would make having a physical model railway enhanced by computer pointless since most people would use the tech to live virtually a moment in the past.

[adb968008]

Sorry, but I have to comment on this because you could not be more wrong.

 

Apologies I've edited my wording, I wasn't referring to Rapido, more of the comments that followed.