Smart Meter = smart move?

[royaloak]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

At the risk of being off message, I can't help but think that the £13 billion that it appears will be spent on smart meters would be better spent on additional renewable/low carbon energy and upgrading the distribution system.

But they need to get the meters in so they can force people to stop using electricity at peak times by charging them extortionate peak prices, oops I mean manage demand at peak times to balance supply and demand, due to the lack of investment in new power plants (of any description) over the last couple of decades.

[royaloak]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

By the way - Anybody on strike Friday !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

 

 

Why, whats happening Friday?

[royaloak]

1 hour ago, 30801 said:

 

Because adding capacity to cope with the odd peak which then stands idle the rest of the time when you can move the peaks elsewhere is stupid. It is moronic.

 

So much tin foil hat crap in this thread it's unbelievable.

Or it can be used as an alternative power source when other parts need to be shut down for maintenance/repair instead of running the remaining supplies to their absolute limits.

 

It would also allow us to stop/reduce the amount of electricity we buy from Europe, mainly France with their nuclear or Germany with their brown coal because like it or not we dont produce anywhere near enough electricity to be self sufficient at peak times.

Edited September 17, 2019 by royaloak

[royaloak]

29 minutes ago, Nick C said:

 

Funnily enough, both problems could be eased significantly by getting employers to be more flexible (for those jobs where it's possible, I appreciate not all) - by spreading out the times people arrive and leave work, not only do you spread out the commuting traffic (and thus reduce the peaks), but you also spread some of the power load, as people will be able to cook their dinner, switch the heating on, etc, at different times...

While an excellent idea in theory the facts are it is always up to somebody else to do it, if you actually look at which jobs could have their start/finish times altered there arent actually that many, and that is before we get onto the fact that most people like the (basically) Monday-Friday 9-5 routine because they get to spend time with the family and quite a few would look for another job if the hours of their existing one were altered. People are creatures of habit.

 

Just because Hubby or Wifey work later doesnt mean the rest of the household does so what I think would happen would be the meal gets cooked at normal time for everyone else and the worker either gets their meal kept warm in the oven (more energy used) or it gets microwaved (again more energy), or even worse they get a whole new meal cooked for them which effectively doubles the energy usage.

Edited September 17, 2019 by royaloak

[Reorte]

46 minutes ago, Nick C said:

 

Funnily enough, both problems could be eased significantly by getting employers to be more flexible (for those jobs where it's possible, I appreciate not all) - by spreading out the times people arrive and leave work, not only do you spread out the commuting traffic (and thus reduce the peaks), but you also spread some of the power load, as people will be able to cook their dinner, switch the heating on, etc, at different times...

That'll nudge things around the edges a bit - draw out the rush hour (which seems to have already happened), but just how flexible do most people actually want to be? We naturally sleep during the night and wake up for the day, and tend to want to stick our feet up after a day's work. Deviating from that much is a decline in quality of life. It's necessary for some jobs and people generally accept that but I think you'll have a hard time persuading many people that a working day all that much different from 9 to 5 is a benefit. You may get some working from home though (a move I also find rather unappealing, I like to keep home and work firmly separate, both in time and space).

 

edit: Hadn't read the post above when I made mine.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Reorte

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, royaloak said:

While an excellent idea in theory the facts are it is always up to somebody else to do it, if you actually look at which jobs could have their start/finish times altered there arent actually that many, and that is before we get onto the fact that most people like the (basically) Monday-Friday 9-5 routine because they get to spend time with the family and quite a few would look for another job if the hours of their existing one were altered. People are creatures of habit.

 

Just because Hubby or Wifey work later doesnt mean the rest of the household does so what I think would happen would be the meal gets cooked at normal time for everyone else and the worker either gets their meal kept warm in the oven (more energy used) or it gets microwaved (again more energy), or even worse they get a whole new meal cooked for them which effectively doubles the energy usage.

 

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

That'll nudge things around the edges a bit - draw out the rush hour (which seems to have already happened), but just how flexible do most people actually want to be? We naturally sleep during the night and wake up for the day, and tend to want to stick our feet up after a day's work. Deviating from that much is a decline in quality of life. It's necessary for some jobs and people generally accept that but I think you'll have a hard time persuading many people that a working day all that much different from 9 to 5 is a benefit. You may get some working from home though (a move I also find rather unappealing, I like to keep home and work firmly separate, both in time and space).

 

edit: Hadn't read the post above when I made mine.

 

I'm not suggesting that we force people to work different hours - just allow it. My employer does (at least in our department) providing that we're in during certain core hours - so some people start earlier and finish earlier, others start later and finish later. This allows, for example, one colleague to take his kids to school and come in afterwards (his wife, who works mornings, picks them up), another to get an earlier train that is much quieter, etc. It's not about being wildly different, just allowing people a bit of choice to suit their lifestyles. Similarly with home working - it's not for everyone, but why not allow people to choose for themselves, where it's possible?

 

As for there being "not that many" jobs that could do so - I don't know what the exact numbers are, but the vast majority of people I know work in an office of some sort. Most of those could have flexible hours. I'd suggest the only '9-5' employees who can't are those who work in 'front-of-house' jobs like shops, call centres etc where they need to be available during published opening hours - I'm ignoring shift workers as they tend not to commute in the standard rush hours anyway.

 

 

[APOLLO]

Well I worked flexible hours at peak winter periods - many times in winter I didn't get home till near midnight. Not complaining the o/time bought me many sid shares that later bought me my house. Thanks Maggie !!!! 

 

Looking forward 20 years or so I would say were fooked.

 

Natural gas - North Sea very depleted now - say 20 years left with less and less output year on year - a few new fields to come on line but the big 'uns have been found and exploited. LNG from Qatar, Egypt and other non to politically stable countries - dependable ?. Why do you think nat gas boilers will be banned from new housing in a few years ?. Why has national grid sold all the gas networks recently and is now heavily investing in North America ? Unfortunately the days of natural gas in the UK are numbered, 20 years or so I reckon.

 

Electricity - Coal soon to be history, "Green" wind is not a base load source (peak times in winter) The future choice will be nuclear or freeze - no new nuclear on the horizon - so freeze it is (or pay through the nose at peak times). Add to this the rise of electric vehicles - a perfect storm.

 

Glad to have lived and worked through the boom years.

 

Sorry guys n gals, it's nearly all gone. Technology won't pull us through the non fossil fuel years ahead. Nuclear could but won't. Sod all else for peak loads when the wind don't blow. (Political hot air generation ???)

 

At least the current generation of snowflakes won't melt !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

 

[steve W]

20 hours ago, APOLLO said:

............  Natural gas - North Sea very depleted now - say 20 years left with less and less output year on year - a few new fields to come on line but the big 'uns have been found and exploited. LNG from Qatar, Egypt and other non to politically stable countries - dependable ?. Why do you think nat gas boilers will be banned from new housing in a few years ?. Why has national grid sold all the gas networks recently and is now heavily investing in North America ? Unfortunately the days of natural gas in the UK are numbered, 20 years or so I reckon.

Electricity - Coal soon to be history, "Green" wind is not a base load source (peak times in winter) The future choice will be nuclear or freeze - no new nuclear on the horizon - so freeze it is (or pay through the nose at peak times). Add to this the rise of electric vehicles - a perfect storm.

 

Glad to have lived and worked through the boom years.     .......

 

Just about sums it up!

Talking to my brother in law in the Netherlands the other day, he noted that they (Dutch) have already, or were intending to,  introduce a ban on domestic gas installations  for new builds. For the past forty or so years they were awash with the stuff from offshore fields,  but they are certainly heavily depleted now. We are not alone.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Apollo and I started working for our relevant local gas undertakings at the same time, 1969, and he will concur with me that the spiel we were given about the saviour of Great Britain that NSG would be, was, looking back on it, optimistic in the extreme, especially as things have panned out.

But, as he has mentioned, we had the best years out of the industry.

 

Mike.

[APOLLO]

I remember being told when I started with The North Western Gas Board back in 1969 that the new wonder fuel North Sea Gas would last about 25 years - so as further field exploration and development progressed over the years we have done rather well out of the North Sea.

 

I was also told during training that to burn gas to make electricity was "a criminal waste of a prime HEATING fuel (domestic and industrial). Maggie Thatchers "dash for gas" (gas electricity generation) was basically politically designed to shut our coal mines - and in that it has been 100% successful

 

So electricity generation by burning gas has flattened our North Sea gas reserves over the years - with millions of tons of coal left unmined.

 

Now we are pedalled climate change as a reason to cut consumption of all fossil fuels. oil & gas are targeted now coal has been "eliminated" Not that I deny global warming / climate change., the billions of tons of CO2 (etc) pumped into the atmosphere over the last 200 years must affect it.

 

Interesting article here (i'm a blue - partially agree).

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/18/climate-crisis-seen-as-most-important-issue-by-public-poll-shows

 

What lies ahead for us all energy wise, in my opinion. will be difficult and unpredictable (witness the bombing of Saudi oil installations last weekend)

 

There are too many vested interests and much political spin at play, worldwide these days for my liking. (Now't new !!).

 

Yes Enterprisingwestern, we certainly did have the best years. Never to be repeated either.

 

Brit15

 

[Metr0Land]

I've no intention of getting a not-so-smart meter any time soon but can I ask a couple of pragmatic questions:

 

a/ The display device they give you shows your current consumption and a price?  When the price rises, is this somehow updated electronically or does it continue to display the prices as at the time of installation?

 

b/ If they grudgingly install a smart meter in dumb mode, is there some way a non-tech customer can inspect the unit visually to show it is indeed acting in dumb mode?

[big jim]

I had a smart meter fitted about 2 years back and it’s been really good, able to monitor usage etc, surprising how much I’ve saved by being more aware of what is racking up the bills using the OVO app on the phone 

 

anyway last week switched to a new supplier (EDF) and couldn’t see anywhere on their app where I could see my useage, messaged them and got a reply to say that my smart meter was not compatible with their system so it’s no better than a normal meter now and they won’t change a smart meter for a newer one.

 

I now have to give meter readings again but to top it off I only have to give 2 a year so I have no way of monitoring my usage any more 

 

luckily it’s only a 12 month contract so once it’s up I’ll most likely move back to OVO if the rates are favourable 

 

so much for inter company compatibility! 

[tanatvalley]

You must have a SMETS1, see:

 

https://www.energyhelpline.com/fri/news-blogs/first-generation-smart-meters-upgraded-to-full-functionality_19770 

[boxbrownie]

13 hours ago, big jim said:

I had a smart meter fitted about 2 years back and it’s been really good, able to monitor usage etc, surprising how much I’ve saved by being more aware of what is racking up the bills using the OVO app on the phone 

 

 

No need to have a Smart meter fitted just to monitor usage (and costs) , I fitted a GEO electricity usage monitor three years ago, it can be programmed with cost per Kw and costs at different periods, only thing it doesn’t do is what yours doesn’t now, tell the supplier......perfect  

[101]

3 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

No need to have a Smart meter fitted just to monitor usage (and costs) , I fitted a GEO electricity usage monitor three years ago, it can be programmed with cost per Kw and costs at different periods, only thing it doesn’t do is what yours doesn’t now, tell the supplier......perfect  

 

Your post has just cost me £40!

I've always liked the idea of a smart meter to see where the money's going but didn't want one because the reasons in this thread, but I didnt know these monitors existed until you posted, so I've just been to Amazon and bought one. So thanks for spending my money for me!

Hopefully I'll get it back in savings 

[boxbrownie]

22 hours ago, 101 said:

 

Your post has just cost me £40!

I've always liked the idea of a smart meter to see where the money's going but didn't want one because the reasons in this thread, but I didnt know these monitors existed until you posted, so I've just been to Amazon and bought one. So thanks for spending my money for me!

Hopefully I'll get it back in savings 

My pleasure 

[class27]

Having also worked in the gas industry  I agree with most of Apollo's postings. The thing is that in principle Smart Metering is a good idea, it should empower customers to be able to make economies by giving them more detail. However. In practice there are several downsides. First these devices are prone to shutting off on failure (you have no gas) old mechanical meters did occasionally bind up but I think I changed less than 10 in over 35 years in meterwork. I was doing 4 a week before I left this year. Second the systems do not talk to one another,  if you are all smartmetered up with supplier A, then change to supplier B, then your smart meters ain't smart anymore, mainly because companies sharing billing info and systems is sure to be against the law for one. It may also interest  you to know that domestic gas meters had the capability to be smart since 1990/91 and from '83/'84 on industrial meters by addition of a reed switch to count the number of revolutions of the index. The question has to be, Why change a meter when all you need to do is fit and seal a battery powered reader on to it (they were made with this provision), which if it fails will only affect the reader and not your supply. Meters were changed on a 25 yearish cycle, but the last time I looked in the old meter skip it was hard to spot anything older than 10 years old, such was the effect of current business practices. We all know about railways on here, so we know government interference is not a good thing, smartmetering is yet another example of this. Just wait till all the batteries start dying  in a few years time. I am glad I retired early !!!

[101]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

My pleasure 

 

Got it up and running now, to be honest I doubt it'll save much as I know where the off switches are!

However it's interesting seeing what uses what, I can't believe how much the kettle uses, and as an ex railwayman I need a cup of tea at least every five minutes! 

[boxbrownie]

35 minutes ago, 101 said:

 

Got it up and running now, to be honest I doubt it'll save much as I know where the off switches are!

However it's interesting seeing what uses what, I can't believe how much the kettle uses, and as an ex railwayman I need a cup of tea at least every five minutes! 

I get frightened when we get in and start cooking, EV plugged in and charging, Kettle on, Oven warming up and at least one ring on the induction hob going glad it hasn't got a little wheel going around, poor thing would need roller bearings  

[big jim]

On 09/10/2019 at 11:11, boxbrownie said:

No need to have a Smart meter fitted just to monitor usage (and costs) , I fitted a GEO electricity usage monitor three years ago, it can be programmed with cost per Kw and costs at different periods, only thing it doesn’t do is what yours doesn’t now, tell the supplier......perfect  

 

I’ve got the usage meter from a previous supplier which is still in use but what I’m going to miss is being able to compare month by month my actual spend, especially with having been with ovo for nearly 3 years I could look at the app and instantly compare how much I spent back in say sept 2017 compared to sept 2019 

[boxbrownie]

3 minutes ago, big jim said:

 

I’ve got the usage meter from a previous supplier which is still in use but what I’m going to miss is being able to compare month by month my actual spend, especially with having been with ovo for nearly 3 years I could look at the app and instantly compare how much I spent back in say sept 2017 compared to sept 2019 

Well you would have to actually write it down but you can programme the usage meter to show week by week or month by month......not as elegant as your original meter but it'll work.

[spikey]

13 minutes ago, big jim said:

 

... I could look at the app and instantly compare how much I spent back in say sept 2017 compared to sept 2019 

 

Forgive me, but I'm struggling to think how that might actually benefit you.  What would you do with that information?

[big jim]

no benefit, just curious 

[DaveF]

 

I had smart meters fitted today for both gas and electricity (both SMETS2).

 

It meant I have got rid of my Economy 7 meter which I haven't needed for some years, replacing it with a standard smart meter.  For now that makes selecting tariffs much easier - it took me a long time last year to find a tariff giving the same price day and night using an Economy 7 meter.

 

While he was at my house the meter fitter also removed the redundant wiring from the old meter to the night time (ex storage heater) consumer unit, as well as the consumer unit itself.  

 

That has saved paying someone to do it.

 

I suspect that if variable tariffs during each day are introduced at some future date I may well be too old to care.

 

David

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

As one who enjoys the smart metering - or rather the little worktop dongle which provides a convenient read out of daily/weekly/monthly/annual consumption - I am sad to report that a power outage yesterday, with multiple on and off again events, has discombobulated it. Permanently according to my energy supplier.

 

But here's the odd aspect. As a result of phoning in the problem about the little dongle I have now been told that no electric or gas meter readings have been remotely available to my energy supplier since May this year. All rather odd as the worktop dongle which gets its information wirelessly from those same meters had been behaving normally until the power outage, with consumption really low in summer, rising again as the weather is now cooling. So is it the receiving location that has the problem  of not collecting data from my meters? And why has it needed me to report a problem with the dongle for the energy supplier to 'detect' this?

 

I shall be questioning the meter change operative very closely on the appointed day. My opinion is that if their meters were busted and they couldn't detect that, then all I owe for the 'no information' period is the standing charge.