Unifrog?

[Suzie]

These diagrams might help showing how to convert to the previous models:-

 

 

Edited July 14, 2018 by Suzie

[The Stationmaster]

And I will be doing the same thing on analogue but adding an insulated rail joiner to the siding frog rail and a connection beyond it, fed from the same switch, which will effectively make the point self-isolating. 

 

Trying to make the thing behave exactly like an out-of-the-box Electrofrog point (i.e. without adding frog switching) looks like choosing to do things the hard way to me.

 

John

 

 

Note: I have corrected the slight error in my earlier post [#87] - describing something without having one on the desk to look at leads to brain fade at times. 

 

I think it boils down to what you want for any particular point.  It can be made to act like an Electrofrog - by two different routes but both involve cutting the magenta wires - or you can leave it as Insulfrog or you can make it live 'frog'.  In my case it will depend either on switching through crossovers or what is needed for dead end sidings so probably different horse for different courses, but in all cases live 'frog' I think

[Portpatrick]

I think it boils down to what you want for any particular point.  It can be made to act like an Electrofrog - by two different routes but both involve cutting the magenta wires - or you can leave it as Insulfrog or you can make it live 'frog'.  In my case it will depend either on switching through crossovers or what is needed for dead end sidings so probably different horse for different courses, but in all cases live 'frog' I think

I would never want to go back to dead frog.  My first exhibition layout in the 80s used these - and second hand ones at that.  The layout had a reasonable life but I was glad to go Electrofrog 6 years later when I built the next one.  Immediate and significant improvement in running quality and reliability.   Reduced to normally zero the number of times I had to stop running mid session for a total clean up.  So if these new things have in essence a longer dead area, that would not be my choice!  Even on Allanbrae where diesel locos and MUs predominate I still use an 08.

[Budgie]

I have the opposite problem. I am making amendments to my garden shed layout, and I need some diamond crossings and double slips in code 100, and none of them is offered in electrofrog. Using code 75 for these item when the surrounding track is code 100 is not an option.

 

Edited to correct a typo.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Budgie

[Oldddudders]

I have the opposite problem. I am making amendments to my garden shed layout, and I need some diamond crossings and double slips in code 100, and none of them is offered in electrofrog. Using code 70 for these item when the surrounding track is code 100 is not an option.

 

Had you considered Code 83?

[Budgie]

Had you considered Code 83?

No, because it's the wrong geometry.

 

I want to make a scissors out of four double slips and one short crossing. Looking at the plan, I could do it in code 75, with 8 SL-113 transition tracks to connect to all the surrounding code 100 tracks.

[Suzie]

You will just have to wait for the Unifrog code 100 crossings and slips and rewire them.

[Free At Last]

Budgie, on 16 Jul 2018 - 11:45, said:

I have the opposite problem. I am making amendments to my garden shed layout, and I need some diamond crossings and double slips in code 100, and none of them is offered in electrofrog. Using code 75 for these item when the surrounding track is code 100 is not an option.

 

Edited to correct a typo.

 

The slips are easy to convert, I have done doubles and singles.

 

 

[Budgie]

It looks like I'm panicking over nothing. I took a look at the existing layout, where I have two code 75 double slips in the fiddle yard throat, joined to the adjoining code 100 tracks with SL-112 "Dual joiners". What's odd is I've got another two unused code 75 double slips and a short crossing in my track stock box, so I must have been thinking of making a scissors when I built the layout, even though it's not on the plan.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Budgie

[andrewnummelin]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned with the an N gauge point is the danger of unwanted connections. At the points ringed in red there is a risk of the wire being pushed upwards and so making a connection with the rail above. If firmly pressed one would have a permanent fault that might be easy to detect but one may have lots of "fun" fault finding if the contact were intermittent!

 

[armstar]

Why do my brand new Peco Unifrog turnouts trip the PSX circuit breaker?

is it because I have built a ladder of facing points that move together?

Everything is from DCC Concepts, NCE except the breakers and turnouts 

I ve been told about nail varnish or insulated joiners or cutting the wires

underneath the points?

 I’ve also been told that the back to backs are the problem, so I have checked them all to 14.5 mm by gauge and caliper.   
If anyone has any ideas I’d be grateful as this has me stumped!

I’ll  send a video if someone can tell me how .

 Thanks 

 

[Compbck]

I am currently in the process of installing new unifrog O gauge turnouts, and have replaced all of the previous electrofrog turnouts that despite the correct adjustments being made for DCC use, seemed to cause smaller locomotives to either stop or jerk when passing over the turnout.  However, having installed unifrog turnouts all locomotives now run smoothly over them.

 

I run a DCC layout, and use of droppers has been greatly reduced to each end, eliminating the need for droppers all over the layout. The unifrog turnouts  seem to allow the power to flow in all directions even without connecting the frog wire to the frog connector on the Colbalt Point motors, with no stoppages or shorts at the frog. Plastic fish plates have also been eliminated.

 

Despite the ease of installation, I have experienced a problem with just one turnout, which showed signs of overheating at the frog and melted the surrounding plastic. I have yet to determine the reason for this, as it has been installed in the same manner as all the other turnouts about 18 in total.

 

Apart from the above gliche I am quite pleased with the performance of the new O Gauge Unifrog turnouts.

[Chamby]

On 22/01/2020 at 12:36, Compbck said:

I am currently in the process of installing new unifrog O gauge turnouts, and have replaced all of the previous electrofrog turnouts that despite the correct adjustments being made for DCC use, seemed to cause smaller locomotives to either stop or jerk when passing over the turnout.  However, having installed unifrog turnouts all locomotives now run smoothly over them.

 

I run a DCC layout, and use of droppers has been greatly reduced to each end, eliminating the need for droppers all over the layout. The unifrog turnouts  seem to allow the power to flow in all directions even without connecting the frog wire to the frog connector on the Colbalt Point motors, with no stoppages or shorts at the frog. Plastic fish plates have also been eliminated.

 

Despite the ease of installation, I have experienced a problem with just one turnout, which showed signs of overheating at the frog and melted the surrounding plastic. I have yet to determine the reason for this, as it has been installed in the same manner as all the other turnouts about 18 in total.

 

Apart from the above gliche I am quite pleased with the performance of the new O Gauge Unifrog turnouts.

 

Overheating suggests that the wiring or joint is too fine for the current passing through it.  Either you have got current passing or arcing or shorting where it shouldn’t, or there is a wire or join that is substandard and therefore overheating.

 

One of the reasons for using lots of droppers with DCC is to avoid reliance on friction-fit rail joiners or touch contact in turnouts (which can be less effective re: conductivity) so that good current flow is achieved throughout the trackwork.  Less conductivity = overheating risk, as well as the potential for poor running.   If you have 18 turnouts and your trackwork is only fed from the ends of the layout, that is definitely not best wiring practice!  

 

Adding droppers to either side of the overheating frog would therefore seem to be a logical first line of attack, to improve the current flow directly to each rail at this stressed part of the layout plan.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Chamby

[meatloaf]

So can I use these straight from the box and connect them to a frog juicer ( dcc80 ) without modifying the point?

[Sol]

As per the answer to you in other forum areas, yes  use straight from the box &  frog switching if required.

[meatloaf]

3 hours ago, Sol said:

As per the answer to you in other forum areas, yes  use straight from the box &  frog switching if required.

Cheers

[RoyLowe]

Can you do that for dc? Roy

[Izzy]

1 hour ago, RoyLowe said:

Can you do that for dc? Roy

 

No. Frog juicers don't work with DC.

 

Izzy

[Coryton]

The last time I looked at this thread I was a bit confused and looking at it again I'm not much the wiser.

 

From looking here and elsewhere on the web, I've come to the following tentative conclusions:

 

1) Out of the box, unifrog points act as 'insulfrog' points but without power switching (e.g. there is power to both diverting routes) - great for DCC, not necessarily so helpful for DC.

2) Snipping two wires makes them act like an insulfrog point with power switching

3) They can be used as 'electrofrog' points but only by powering the frog via a switch linked to the point position (and without the need for insulating joiners where electrofrogs would need them)

4) Except the Bullhead ones are different and don't do power switching as in point 2).

 

Would anyone care to comment?

 

 

[Suzie]

I understand it that if you want to do DC power switching you will have to both cut some links and make some new ones.

[Pete the Elaner]

They are not electrofrog or Insulfrog, so you need to change your way of thinking slightly.

If you use metal rail joiners throughout, all sidings will be powered but without shorts that badly wired electrofrogs can cause.

Only the insulfrogs themselves will be dead & because these are small, you may well be able to manage without wiring them.

They do not rely on point blades for carrying current so are more reliable than insulfrogs or electrofrogs in this respect - you will never have to clean the blades.

If you want to power a siding on/off by throwing a point, then this requires some surgery. You can operate a DC layout by energising sidings from a control panel. I have been ding this for years & prefer it to energising by throwing points.

[Coryton]

10 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

They are not electrofrog or Insulfrog, so you need to change your way of thinking slightly.

If you use metal rail joiners throughout, all sidings will be powered but without shorts that badly wired electrofrogs can cause.

Only the insulfrogs themselves will be dead & because these are small, you may well be able to manage without wiring them.

They do not rely on point blades for carrying current so are more reliable than insulfrogs or electrofrogs in this respect - you will never have to clean the blades.

If you want to power a siding on/off by throwing a point, then this requires some surgery. You can operate a DC layout by energising sidings from a control panel. I have been ding this for years & prefer it to energising by throwing points.

 

Thanks for responding.

 

My problem is that I have ready so many different things.

 

I realise that they are neither electrofrog nor insulfrog - what I'm trying to find out is how close to either they can be made to act without adding extra switches.

 

Clearly I can do without power switching points by adding lots of extra DC sections. I'd rather not.

 

12 hours ago, Suzie said:

I understand it that if you want to do DC power switching you will have to both cut some links and make some new ones.

 

Yes I have read that. And I have also read (more than once) that all you have to do is cut two links. Hence my confusion.

 

I can understand why Peco have done this. I think they could have made it clearer what they are doing though. For example something on their web site saying either "These points cannot act like the old insulfrog points" (as they effectively said in Railway Modeller for the Bullhead points, I think) or "These points can be made to act like the old insulfrog points by cutting/making these links..." Or maybe they have and I can't find it.

 

Does anyone know if they come with instructions that say something as simple as "To make them power-switching, you do this?"

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

The instructions on the packaging show how to add power switching for the 'frog' (which is electrically dead as the points come from the factory) using certain Peco microswitches in order to do that.

[Coryton]

7 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The instructions on the packaging show how to add power switching for the 'frog' (which is electrically dead as the points come from the factory) using certain Peco microswitches in order to do that.

 

That's what I thought.

 

But what I can't get a consistent answer on is whether getting power switching to the track beyond the points like an insulfrog point (so that anything on the route that the points are set against is isolated):

- Requires just cutting two wires

- Requires soldering extra links

- Can't be done without an external switch linked to the point position

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

21 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

That's what I thought.

 

But what I can't get a consistent answer on is whether getting power switching to the track beyond the points like an insulfrog point (so that anything on the route that the points are set against is isolated):

- Requires just cutting two wires

- Requires soldering extra links

- Can't be done without an external switch linked to the point position

 

 

As it comes out of the pack (i'm using the bullhead version as an example annd assuming the FB ones are similar) everything, including the wing rails beyond the 'frog' is live and bonded to ensure it is live - ideal for DCC.  The only thing which is dead is the 'frog' (actually the crossing nose area) which therefore requires power to be switched to it if it is to be made live.

 

However being bonded as it comes does not mean the point would function like a normal 'live frog point' where the wing rails beyond the 'frog' draw their power feed from, effectively, the 'frog' itself.  So in order to convert the point to a traditional 'live frog' wiring the following changes are needed 

1.  The 'frog' supply needs to be fed via a switch controlled by the position in which the ponts blades are set, and 2.

2. The wing rails need to be bonded to the 'frog' instead of  their as supplied cross-bonding to the relevant opposite running rail.

Do that and you have a live 'frog' point which would make a dead end siding self isolating when the point is not set towards it,

 

If you use the point as it comes, irrespective of whether or not you add a feed to the 'frog',  both routes coming out of the heel end of the point are always live when the running rails leading into the toe end of the point are live.  So in this case to isolate a dead end siding coming out of the point you need an isolating gap/rail joiner in one rail and an on/off switch in order to effect isolation of that dead end siding.