Jonathan's Modern Image Workbench (3D-printed class 323 EMU, class 156s, 3-car 144s, a 141, 4-car class 465s)

[JDW]

Nothning more done on any of the units in the last few days, too much work to be getting on with. But just to keep the thread alive here's a badly-lit, out of focus picture of a straight out of the box Bachmann First North Western Class 150. A totally boring and otherwise completely uninteresting picture. 

 

[Wagonmaster]

Very nice, but what's that in the background? A Met-Cam Class 151 by any chance?

[JDW]

In the background? Nope. nothing to see here, move along please... 
 

(...yes... but only a paper mock up so far...)

[Wagonmaster]

Thought so. Now that's a unit I would like a model of. Built locally to me and tested, I quite liked them. Pity they were dumped at Llandudno Junction for ages.

 

I was hoping to persuade someone to do a CAD design and 3D print at some stage. If enough of us would like one, perhaps something could be done?

 

That and a Class 210 of course

[JDW]

I just happened to find the drawings as I was looking at something else, so printed them off and resized them a few times until they were the same length/width/height as the 150, hence the paper 'model' to test the dimensions in 3d. I've not really got a plan. In theory the body should be easy as it's pretty square. A thin plasticard outer layer with thicker material behind, with rebate for the windows, should be do-able. But - and in my case it is a big but - actually cutting stuff square never works. No matter what, it is never accurate. Which puts me off. As do the complex curves around the cab, the lack of suitable bogies... I suppose at least for the underframe equipment I could buy a few cheap Hornby 153 chassis for the parts. 

 

I had wondered about the 3d printing option but suspect for three different vehicle types it might be expensive. Looking at pictures I'm not sure if the two driving cars were the same. The single window behind the cab seems to be in different places:  

151002: http://www.traintesting.com/images/151rtc.jpg

Secondman's side. Looks slightly shorter than other windows, and closer to cab

 

151002: http://www.traintesting.com/images/151kid.jpg

Secondman's side (other end?) same size as other saloon windows, close to passenger door

 

151001: http://www.traintesting.com/images/151panc.jpg

Driver's side, larger window same as others, closer to passenger door

 

151001: http://www.traintesting.com/images/151sheff.jpg

Secondman's side: Same size as other windows, closer to passenger door

 

To be fair, I doubt anyone would notice the difference! And if I build it, that'll probably be the least of my worries!!

Edited December 3, 2020 by JDW

[Derekstuart]

13 hours ago, JDW said:

 actually cutting stuff square never works. No matter what, it is never accurate. Which puts me off.

 

I've recently had a go with a Cameo Silhouette cutter and found it perfect for such things. I did a couple of rough runs for parts to help design a brass kit (a steam locomotive) but the parts came out well enough to design the whole body in plastic.

 

It was only a borrowed machine, but I'm off to buy one of my own on payday. There are a couple of threads on here about using them. It might be worth a look.

[berwicksfinest]

Chalk me up for a 151 !!! 

 

The holy grail of models

[Wagonmaster]

There are a few ways of tackling a Class 151, or anything else for that matter. If enough people are interested in a 3D printed version of a Class 151, then it becomes cheaper as the development costs are shared.

 

Another way is how I've tackled a few other DMU's. That is a 3D printed cab, to get the complex compound curves right, then used etched brass sides on a commercial chassis. This, I find, is quite a good way. The sides just need to be drawn up and sent to an etching company such as PPD. You/I/we can draw these up and the bodyside variations you noted can be accounted for. Using brass sides has the advantage of as near flush glazing as you'll get. Examples in my fleet are Classes 100, 103, 104, 109 and 309.

 

Additional etched parts such as bulkheads, internal dividers etc. can be included. You can even add floors/chassis to the mix if you don't want to use a commercial chassis.

 

I don't think etched cabs would work, not enough depth/relief. Still leaves underfloor detail, but not insurmountable.

[JDW]

@Derekstuart Thank you for volunteering 

 

The 3d printed version would be a good idea, and would certainly be better than anything I could make out of plastic, but its a case of finding someone to do it, and investing the money - the prints themselves wouldn't be cheap.

 

I'd thought of something like the Cameo Silhouette, I've heard it mentioned elsewhere. I'm not sure my skill or patience would stretch to it but it seems a good way of making lots of parts the same for the sides. 

 

Thanks for your input so far everyone I'll give it some thought... 

 

Definitely would be a candidate for an RTR one now I think, looking at some of what we've seen. Or maybe not - it is only a DMU after all. But hopefully if I make a start, someone will announce one and save me the work.  

[Wagonmaster]

It's always good to throw ideas around, after all, that's what a forum is! I have some basic drawings of the Class 151 and had thought of going down the etched brass route. I will probably still do that sometime. 3D printing is a great idea, but as you say, it's expensive for a three car dmu.

 

I would have thought the Class 151 would have been very low down the list of rtr candidates. Two short lived prototypes? I think a Derby Class 116, Swindon 120 etc. would be far higher now that the Class 104 has been announced.

 

Anyway, plenty to do other things, like the Class 323!

[JDW]

Yeah but why finish a project when I can start another?! 

 

I don't have the confidence with metalworking to do it in brass, I prefer plastic. The idea of using the line drawings and producing something that could be cut on the Silhouette would be best, I'm just not sure I'd ever get around to it. Probably sounds more daunting than it really is. 

[cheesysmith]

Having got a cameo I can say as long as you can import the drawing into your pc, the rest is easy. And the machine will cut 10thou but thicker needs to be snapped free after. 

 

And if you already have done the windows, you can cut the glass to size using the same file in the program.  Something like the 151 without the body curve of other rolling stock would be easy.

Edited December 4, 2020 by cheesysmith
Spelling

[Derekstuart]

5 hours ago, cheesysmith said:

Having got a cameo I can say as long as you can import the drawing into your pc, the rest is easy. And the machine will cut 10thou but thicker needs to be snapped free after. 

 

And if you already have done the windows, you can cut the glass to size using the same file in the program.  Something like the 151 without the body curve of other rolling stock would be easy.

 

Sorry I'm behind on this, but I recall someone from the 5mm society once showing me how he built a 313. He made a 'box' like structure out of stiff plasticard (which is essentially what all MU interiors look like) then added contoured ribs every X distance, before then adding on a sheet of quite thin plasticard over the formers. I think he might have then glued a further thin sheet over it to give it rigidity. Then he popped in glazing- which was flush in an era when flush glazing was a rarity.

 

The reason I mention that is producing those formers now, with laser or silhouette etc should make it really easy to produce multiple formers exactly the same. The added advantage is that this even partially mimics the way the real thing is built.

 

However, it doesn't help with cab fronts which are a completely different area.

[Derekstuart]

@JDW looking through this thread again, I know this will make me unpopular with many on RMW, but with the modifications you've made to the Lima 156, I still think it is the best 156 RTR/modified model available at the moment.

I dare say the British Geological Survey will report an eruption in South Yorkshire as I've dared to have this opinion, but  there you go. I can't really put my finger on it- except the already mentioned issue of rivets on the other model and the partially correct Wipac light cluster.

[JDW]

I have to admit I do like my 156s. The Realtrack one is an absolutely fantastic model, no doubt about it, but the Lima/Hornby ones have proven enjoyable builds, have been a good way to develop my skills over the years (they were some of the first projects I did) and the results are pretty good for what they are. I don't know how accurate the measurements are, but they have that important quality of 'looking right' somehow.

 

As for the 151, The sides should be relatively easy, if repetitive - in essence two strips of very thin plasticard as you say, with a former to fix the shape. Same for the doors, recessed slightly. I think I have more chance of cutting very thin plastic straight than thick stuff anyway. And as you say, makes the glazing easier. What software/skill is needed to convert a scanned line drawing to a drawing for the cutter?

 

I was debating how to do the roof, either formers and a very thin skin or maybe the sandwich method of slid plasticard filed to shape. I think using formers migh be best for consistency, but the front corners and above the cab would probably work best using thick plastic filed to shape. 

There's a slight curved recess around the black windscreen surrounds. I'm wondering if I'd be able to achieve that neatly. It might be easier and neater to just paint the area black and hope no-one spots it is flush... 

 

 

[Wagonmaster]

The idea of a Cameo silhouette cutter is a good idea. Not just for rolling stock, but buildings etc. as well. Certainly the main body and roof of most multiple units and carriages can be built up this way. But there is still the problem of the cab. They never look particularly convincing and the 'face' of the unit is probably the most important feature. So for my money, I'd still investigate having a CAD design drawn up and have it 3D printed. Just the cab front, up to the drivers door.

 

I have done this with a Wickham Class 109 and am very pleased with the result. The same could be done for a Class 151, or anything else. If there are a few of us interested, the design work cost is split between us and the cab print is not overly expensive. That way, the 'face' is right without the need to compromise and if that is right, the rest of it will look right too.

 

If there are any takers, I could investigate and come up with some prices. Below is a picture of my Class 109 bodyshells in primer to give you the idea.

 

[Derekstuart]

@Wagpnmaster I'd go along with that as an idea. If we could make it work for X class, we could- in time- do the same for pretty much any class.

 

I have little experience of the silhouette cutter and more or less nil for the 3D printing, but I have seen some extraordinary results from 3D resin printers- some really crisp designs.

[Gibbo675]

2 hours ago, JDW said:

I have to admit I do like my 156s. The Realtrack one is an absolutely fantastic model, no doubt about it, but the Lima/Hornby ones have proven enjoyable builds, have been a good way to develop my skills over the years (they were some of the first projects I did) and the results are pretty good for what they are. I don't know how accurate the measurements are, but they have that important quality of 'looking right' somehow.

 

As for the 151, The sides should be relatively easy, if repetitive - in essence two strips of very thin plasticard as you say, with a former to fix the shape. Same for the doors, recessed slightly. I think I have more chance of cutting very thin plastic straight than thick stuff anyway. And as you say, makes the glazing easier. What software/skill is needed to convert a scanned line drawing to a drawing for the cutter?

 

I was debating how to do the roof, either formers and a very thin skin or maybe the sandwich method of slid plasticard filed to shape. I think using formers migh be best for consistency, but the front corners and above the cab would probably work best using thick plastic filed to shape. 

There's a slight curved recess around the black windscreen surrounds. I'm wondering if I'd be able to achieve that neatly. It might be easier and neater to just paint the area black and hope no-one spots it is flush... 

 

 

Hi JDW,

 

For the roof I would suggest a lamination of perhaps .040, .060, and .080 strips of plasticard which could be filed and sanded to exact profile. When ever I have used this method I use a sheet of sand paper on a flat surface to ensure that the profile is correct along its length to finish off. A benefit of this method is that you will have a stable section to attach the sides to, this could be made easy by way of a location strip on the underside to make sure the sides fit up into the correct position.

 

Clive Mortimer built a fleet of Baby Deltics using this method to good effect. I'm sure he would send on some photographs should you ask him which will give you an idea of how he went about it.

 

Gibbo.

[JDW]

@Wagpnmaster That 109 looks fantastic, and a very nice looking unit too. Just doing the cabs as far as the cab door would seem to be a good compromise if going down that route I think. That would cover the curve of the roof and cab sides. Maybe worth investigating. If you have an idea of costs, feel free to PM me if you don't want to post it here.

 

 

@Gibbo675 I had @Clive Mortimore in mind when I was thinking of it, I've seen his various DMUs. It seems the best option, I'd just be wary whether I'd manage to get the profile all the same. I guess a basic template for checking would solve that though. As you say it would give a sold 'foundation' for the sides. 

[JDW]

Not mucch progress on anything recently though a cheap 153 arrived - yes, another, and a third in the same colour.

This time though, Hornby's later release of 153321, which has a few differences, including

- factory fitted with ploughs

- printed representation of the window in the end door instead of the plain gangway cover

- more yellow around the edgrs if the cab

- all-yellow 'faring' below the cab

- incorrect blue Regional Railways lettering

 

 

 

I plan on removing the lettering and extending the light blue stripe to the vehicle ends, as well as adjusting the yellow on the lower cab to match the other two, changing the destination, and painting the edges of the light clusters in the correct black not yellow, and of course thinning the ploughs and mounting them to the body. Should be a simple project, I've been looking out for a good value one to do for a while.

 

 

[ColinK]

Where did you get your ‘cheap’ 153 from?  I’ve got a Northern Spirit one which is far too late for my layout. It really needs replacing with a Regional Railways one.

[JDW]

2 hours ago, ColinK said:

Where did you get your ‘cheap’ 153 from?  I’ve got a Northern Spirit one which is far too late for my layout. It really needs replacing with a Regional Railways one.

 

It was a chance Buy It Now on Ebay I'm afraid. If you want a Regional Railways one though, best look out for the more accurate 153303. 

Do you mean Northern (purple) or ex-North Western blue/gold?

[JDW]

Logos removed with some thinners and cotton buds. A few licks of a paintbrush and the blue stripe and black lights have been touched in, along with grey on the lower panel. Ploughs thinned and attached to the chassis

 

 

 

When the weather's better I'll mask and spray the gangway door to get rid of the printed window. I haven't removed the numbers as I've nothing to remumber it with at the minute.

 

[ColinK]

2 hours ago, JDW said:

 

It was a chance Buy It Now on Ebay I'm afraid. If you want a Regional Railways one though, best look out for the more accurate 153303. 

Do you mean Northern (purple) or ex-North Western blue/gold?

 

Mine is the Blue & Gold - I urgently needed a single car for exhibiting my layout and that's all I could get.  I'll look out for 153303, thanks.

[JDW]

Hi @313201 The easy answer is yes. The Hornby chassis is a straight swap for the Lima one. However be aware that Hornby modified the chassis to take their standard type of motor for its ex-Lima range, and so the Lima motor bogie will not fit in a Hornby chassis and vice versa. The Hornby one is mounted from above at 'ceiling' level, the Lima one as you will know uses four lugs on the bogie frame. I have plenty of 156s and 153s (in case anyone hadn't noticed!) with the new Hornby motor bogie and for what it is can't really fault it, so I'd be tempted to just fit a whole new Hornby rolling chassis, with the added bonus of better wheels on both bogies, so better pick up.